| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
No, I've never heard that before. Pretty common in coffee shops and wherever smart people catch a buzz. Understand that besides a century long propaganda campaign to erase Religion other than the Holy State, with it's rationalizations and fake scientific glamour, ( enchantments ) a LOT of people get freaked out at the notion of gods. Too big for their heads? Crushes the ego? I dunno. I know a lot of folk who say they are atheists just rejected the teachings of their elders and sorta stuck in that adolescent rejection mode. Others have fully formed belief systems that just can't include the supernatural in any way. Hey, people are weird. I always thought dark matter was a cheat; the made-up theory doesn't work, so we'll use comic book math straight from the Marvel Universe to explain away what we don't know. Pretty much my take, but I've been wrong before. Not sure about Isaiah 45: 7, but did you know that your eyes send "darkness" signals to the brain? Not just light gets a reaction from the nervous system. And it's not just absence of light, that wouldn't need a signal in a logical nervous system. It has it's own code. What that all means is beyond me, but it's interesting. By creating peace & evil one could interpret that as meaning we are given a choice. All choices are available to us. It's up to us to take the right path. Anti-matter, that exists. Why we don't see entire galaxies of it is a bit of a mystery. There's a theory that anti-matter is just not the same, so we couldn't exist if we were made of it, and there's some statistical reason the Universe is Matter, instead, but to be honest the math makes my head hurt. | ||
| Blake |
"The entirety of the universe is a means for God to experience itself." I enjoyed Dilbert author, Scott Adams' musings in his short story, God's Debris. (Message edited by blake on December 06, 2016) | ||
| Torquehd |
I totally agree. The words of King Solomon, one of the wisest men to ever live, (from the 3rd chapter of Ecclesiastes, which is one of my all time favorite books) "11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. 12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life." God created good and evil, light and dark, and we can't understand his ways, but we have a natural desire to seek after what we cannot discover. We pursue it to the point of madness. Ecc 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Blake, Douglas Adams emailed God's Debris to me years ago along with thousands of other people (I'm not special) and I have had it on my web server since that day. It's really a great piece of thought-provoking literature and I've shared it with hundreds of people. | ||
| Hootowl |
Matter distribution and inflation. http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Pl anck/The_cosmic_microwave_background_and_the_distr ibution_of_matter_in_the_Universe | ||
| Blake |
Jeff, Isn't infinity only a mathematical concept? Is there any actually infinite anything within material space-time existence, or only an imagined potentially infinite future? Check out the very interesting logical paradox of an actual infinity as illustrated by Hilbert's Hotel, a product of the mind of the great German mathematician, David Hilbert. Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-existence-of-go d-and-the-beginning-of-the-universe#ixzz4S4a6IMOZ "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways", saith the LORD. Isaiah 55:8 | ||
| Hootowl |
"Isn't infinity only a mathematical concept?" Not if the universe is infinite. Then infinity is a real thing, and not just the limit of 1/x as x approaches zero. Again, infinite, finite, I can't wrap my brain around either. Finite means I live in a bubble. What's outside the bubble? If there's no bubble, then the universe goes on forever. For EVER. It's just not a concept that I can internalize. | ||
| Aesquire |
Bubble. Our tiny minds can't comprehend beyond the bubble. We can't even comprehend how the bubble is limited & infinite at the same time. However, I know many people that are happy to lie to you about the fudge factors used to predict the temperature of the planet within a hundredth of a degree, without even taking into account solar variability. So if you want fake certainty, there's plenty of that around. Dogma? we got lots of that. I know it's a lot to ask that you be comfortable with uncertainty. I just think any other answer..... has issues. | ||
| Blake |
Don't both the Genesis creation account and the current science indicate that the universe is not infinite, and doesn't logic show the idea of an actual infinite to be absurd? Imagine a planet so big that its surface appeared as a flat infinite plane; imagine a giant styrofoam ball a trillion light years in diameter. You could travel across it forever and never know it was a finite spherical planet. Now imagine that ball is growing so fast that you could never go fast enough to ever even traverse it's circumference; its circumference growing at a rate faster than you can travel. | ||
| Torquehd |
What are the supporting arguments/evidence for the universe being either finite, or infinite? I've never bothered to look into it as it seems irrelevant but it would be worth looking into to see what the theories are. For now, there's this: Psalm 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. 5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite. God knows how many stars there are, but He can also count to infinity, which is not a Chuck Norris joke in this case. And could be used to support either argument, or neither. Maybe God's right, and we cannot discover His works. | ||
| Hootowl |
I've heard that analogy. The universe is not a two dimensional plane, or even a two dimensional plane wrapped around an infinitely large three dimensional sphere, so I don't think it's a good one. Besides, you can't use infinity to explain infinity. | ||
| Hootowl |
"I've never bothered to look into it as it seems irrelevant" Why do you think it's irrelevant? | ||
| Torquehd |
Nothing that I do, or believe, is dependent upon the size or boundaries of the universe. Obviously I have no reason to take a journey to the edge of the universe, and couldn't even if I wanted to. Do you think it's relevant? What is the significance of either answer? What if the universe keeps going forever in the same way that the earth is round? If you point your rocket ship in one direction and just keep going, maybe you'll end up back at the same point that you started from. Maybe you'll end up at the same TIME you started at... nah, that's just me confusing myself with science fiction (but fun to think about). | ||
| Hootowl |
It speaks to the nature of the universe; the age old struggle to figure out the rules of the natural world. Finite, infinite, I'm still putting my pants on before I go to work tomorrow, so no, it matters not a bit. But I still want to know. | ||
| Crusty |
I'm still trying to figure out that if God didn't create the Universe, then who did? | ||
| Hootowl |
Yup. Matter from nothing. Or is it energy from nothing, as matter is energy? What caused the energy to become matter? More importantly, where did the energy come from? I'm not the first to ask these questions. Science asks why. Religion says it already has the answer. I can respect both. But I want to know the specifics, so I am for the advancement of science, and the quest to discover just how it was that God did it. | ||
| Aesquire |
Well the Pastafarians would tell you that the Flying Spaghetti Monster did so with his noodly appendages, but since that church was born of lasagna and weed, I think we can ignore them.  Who did? Take your pick. I don't proselytize. I'd be careful about applying human motives to a supreme being, Folk have been doing so for Millennia, often with very bad results. On the idea that Science seems to match up with some religion's view on the Origin... the science keeps changing. The "inflation problem" may not exist at all. This is not a bad thing. https://www.quantamagazine.org/20161129-verlinde-g ravity-dark-matter/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=e mail&utm_campaign=pockethits | ||
| Hootowl |
So...we ARE in a simulation. Computer, ARCH! I'm out of here. | ||
| Torquehd |
This Christian physicist explores some differences between the infinite universe where everywhere is center, vs the finite universe where there is a defined center. His theory is interesting, but it's just a theory. He's assuming that the universe has expanded, which makes it a theory built upon a theory. He also expounds upon the prerequisite for a fourth dimension (yes I know time/duration is a fourth - i mean simply an external physical dimension that we have yet to observe/quantify) to explain the big bang/expanding/no central point. The bible does say in a myriad of places, that God stretched or stretches out the heavens, and it does say in 2 places that i know of that the heavens will be rolled up like a scroll toward the end of days. Interesting to ponder, but I wouldn't say that I understand it. Edit: In case you don't want to watch the video, this guy's theory is that the universe is billions of years old, and the earth is 6,000 years old, and that both were created at the same time, and the expansion of the heavens, with respect to the way that gravity pulls on time, changes the rate at which the earth and outer space have aged, relative to eachother. (Message edited by torquehd on December 06, 2016) | ||
| Blake |
Hoot, There was no infinity in the analogy. It's not a perfect analogy, but it puts the issue into a frame we can relate to. There is no such thing as "beyond the universe." "Nothing" means no space, no time, just zeroness. | ||
| Blake |
Torque, The infinite knowledge of God, reference is saying that God is omniscient, He has all knowledge. That however doesn't mean that he can violate laws of logic, Check out some of the great Q&A material on www.reasonablefaith.org on the topic of infinity relative to philosophical arguments for God and a finite past. | ||
| Pwnzor |
if God didn't create the Universe, then who did? There is no answer to this question other than the obvious one. The sci-bots will have you believing it all just spontaneously blew up out of nowhere, and we're all random meat blobs. | ||
| Torquehd |
I'm on that site now, going to take me awhile to get through an article or two. Blake, I just dont buy that God is somehow limited to what we understand to be laws. He created matter, time, space, laws, everything. Saying that He must conform to our understanding of spatial limitations just doesn't make sense. Saying there are limitations to his power and capabilities doesn't make sense. | ||
| Pwnzor |
^^^ what he said. | ||
| Torquehd |
Some snippets from an article on the reasonablefaith site: This is an example of the so-called second law of thermodynamics, which, applied to the entire cosmos, predicts that it is stuck on a one-way slide of degeneration and decay towards a final state of maximum entropy, or disorder. As this final state has not yet been reached, it follows that the universe cannot have existed for an infinite time.... The naturalist might insist that we have no good reason for thinking that the personal Creator would intervene in the natural world so as to avert the consequences toward which the universe tends. But Christian eschatology is inextricably bound up with the person of Jesus of Nazareth: his physical resurrection is the harbinger not only of our own eschatological resurrection but also of a sort of cosmic resurrection as well (Rom. 8.19-23). The Christian eschatological hope is therefore based on the historical reality of Jesus' resurrection. Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-end-of-the-worl d#ixzz4SAIY3SRA And then there's this: 2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise (the big bang, it is real, and it's coming!), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Isaiah also talks about the heavens being rent, the earth moved out of its place, and the heavens receding/being rolled up like a scroll. Interesting stuff. | ||
| Aesquire |
Don't forget..... it's not just the origin. The ultimate end times are either..... Fade to heat death expanding to lonely darkness. Or Collapse to black hole..... reset. Or ???????? In any event as Fenris gnaws on the roots of the World Tree, which shall someday release the Serpent, bringing us Ragnarok. .... enjoy this time of relative peace. | ||
| Blake |
Jesse, Matt, Consider... Could God create a round square? A married bachelor? A rock too heavy for Him to move? Those are each examples of logical contradictions that God cannot perform. Infinity, not the potential kind, but an actually infinite quantity or series of events is itself a logical contradiction. See Hilbert's Hotel. We didn't invent the laws of logic, and if you hold them to be universally objectively true, then they have only one possible source, the mind of God. | ||
| Blake |
And if that's the case, then God, the eternal, unchanging, greatest possible being, cannot act illogically. | ||
| Pwnzor |
contradictions that God cannot perform. On the contrary, I believe God is so powerful that he could influence the human mind to believe that the square is round, or cause me to perceive that the "too-heavy rock" was moved. "Round" and "square" are just words invented by humans. They only mean what we think they mean. | ||
| Torquehd |
Could God create a round square? Yes. He could make sunshine feel like an octagon and taste purple. I say, because he created the rules, he can violate them, because he has mastery over them. God can be both past, present, and future, because He created time. Here's what I present as evidence: However, I know that God made matter out of nothing, by His word, which is Jesus, which is light, and which is also Himself. If that makes sense (or even if it doesn't, it still happened). I also know that he made the shadow on Hezekiah's sundial go back 10 degrees - did he make the earth spin backwards? Or rotate the sundial? I don't know. I know the sun did not set for an entire day for one of Joshua's battles. Did God stop the earth from rotating? Why didn't everyone get crushed by increased gravity? I know that he raised Jesus from the dead. And a dead man who touched Elisha's bones came back to life. And Jesus turned water into wine, and healed leprosy and even death with just words. God made an axehead float in water, he turned water into fire, he burned a bush without burning the bush, turned Aaron's staff from wood into a snake, and back again to wood. He let Saul summon Samuel from the dead, he let three Israelites get put into a furnace without getting burned. God chose to forgive me from my sins. All of these things violate physical laws. They aren't compatible with logic; something had to be changed by an outside influence in order for these things to happen. God is full of defying logic, in my opinion, it's kind of His "thing". |
