| Author | Message | ||
     Alfau |
Your drowning your questions with words. 6000 years came from , a day is as a 1000 years to God. 2pe:3:8 He rested on the 7th day. Ge 31:12-17 | ||
| Aesquire |
And it could be deliberate, evil intent. I can name a couple of major religions with millions of victims that are somewhat modern, post prehistory, and the teachings of one man or a small group. A couple are deliberate scams to screw people and make power from lies. A couple started with good intent and were exploited, by, yes evil men. is Man Flawed? Fracking self evident. It's the basis of the difference between the American & French Revolutions. One assumes a flawed mankind, with hope for improvement, one assume a perfect mankind, corrupted by civilization. The second kind always has mass executions, so you be the judge. | ||
| Alfau |
Is Man flawed? Choosing independence from God's rules has demonstrated a weakness. It had consequences. Ge 3:17 Kicked out of the garden to this. Look around, God ain't in control, We are. Eph 2:1-8 Donald Duck will call the shots in America and by extension to us over here in paradise. (Message edited by alfau on November 29, 2016) | ||
| Torquehd |
One assumes a flawed mankind, with hope for improvement, I'm a fatalist. I don't see humanity ending well. Look at the world today. In terms of morality, we are not better off than we were yesterday, or last year, or a millennia ago. Technology has made our lives lazier, but morally, the world as a whole is probably worse today than it has ever been. Part of that math is based based on the inclusion of islam in my generalization. It is the self proclaimed end of the world, and it has (further) corrupted a large percentage of the world. And it's growing like wildfire, and being forced down our throats. Yeah, I don't see "humanity" ending well. I don't hope for improvement. I hope for deliverance. That is the one thing that sets Christianity apart from all other religions that I know of. All the improvement in the world is meaningless, you will never make yourself perfect (or good enough). That's why we need a savior, a scapegoat to take away what we rightfully deserve for the evil in our hearts. "'Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus, Just to take Him at His word..." I don't expect to convert anybody with my words. I'm an awful debater and quite frankly I have a hard time caring about other people enough to put a good amount of effort into it. But what I would like to tell you is how beautiful it is to be able to blindly trust in a perfect Creator who is in charge and who wants me to come live forever with Him - not because I deserve it, but because He loves me. Man that's awesome. | ||
| Alfau |
But But But, Psalm 37:11 does not say you will live with God. | ||
| Aesquire |
Don't feel the need to argue the age of the World. I obviously don't agree with you but absent time travel there's no way to convince us otherwise. Happy to leave it at that. Also don't feel the need to argue theology questions about your faith. Your beliefs seem to suit you and mine, me. Certainly the idea that the universe was created doesn't bother me either. Fits the facts as known but is beyond simple understanding. Even if the Big Bang theory is wrong and the Steady State guys are right the science side steps Origin. Often called "The God of the gaps". This, that, & this other thing seem well explained by science. That part science is ignorant of? Your choice. There's lots of things I don't have a "scientific explanation" for & don't lose much sleep over it. Heck, there are things some folk are convinced we can digitize & explain with just a little more comprehension. On some of that I just laugh. Sure, chemistry can cover lust, almost, coded DNA your choice of lust. ?Phychobabble tries to claim love. Ha! Just caught "Dr. Strange". Pretty good with some rough spots. Better than I expected. Hard headed guy on selfish quest to fix himself rejects the notion of spirit. Boy howdy is he wrong. Everything else is comic book. The teachings aren't real the magic is.... awesome special effects with no real basis..... But the core lesson is "there is more than you know" & "closed minds reject more than nonsense". So good morals overall. No one watching is going to believe they can go to Tibet and be a Sorcerer. It's metaphor. | ||
| Torquehd |
But, Psalm 37:11 does not say you will live with God. O Contraire; John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Meekness isn't salvation; Jesus Christ is Salvation. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Who wrote the Bible? | ||
| Pwnzor |
Who wrote the science books? Who writes anything? Consider the source, not the implement. If you choose to believe nothing, then nothing is what you shall have. Separation from God. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I have a time machine, but the controls are stuck, currently going into the future at 3600 s/h. | ||
| Hootowl |
I have one too. It looks a lot like a couch. | ||
| Hootowl |
6000 years? Really guys? What's the speed of light? How far away are the stars? The fact that we can see light from them means something. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Clearly, the light was created already in motion and most of the way here.  | ||
| Torquehd |
It would make sense that God created the light that goes along with the stars. God didn't put seeds in the ground and have Adam wait for them to turn into plants so he'd have to wait for food, God gave him a fully equipped world. Well, less a woman, but that was quickly resolved. | ||
| Alfau |
a perfect Creator who is in charge Not until "Thy kingdom comes and Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...re 11:15-17 Meanwhile back at the ranch. 1joh 5:19 1joh 2:16,17,18 Preppers read this first. (Message edited by alfau on November 30, 2016) | ||
| Blake |
http://www.asatru.org/aboutasatru.php An apparent polytheism cradled by an overarching pantheism that views humans as equal to gods and godesses, and truth as a relative phenomenon, all founded upon stories and ? The declaration that "truth is relative" is self contradictory just as is the declaration that "there is no absolute truth." Did I misrepresent? Mathematics is inerrant only so long as the person trying to understand it is able and willing to grasp it. The same can be said for the books of the Bible. One thing I've found is that one statement/story/parable/illustrative commentary may have multiple true meanings. This is also true in mathematics and physics, where there may exist multiple true/valid solutions to an equation. That doesn't mean that truth is relative. It means that truth can be multi-faceted. On the biblical timeline, there are multiple apologetics that aim to explain it relative to the apparent scientific age of creation. A purely literal interpretation seems highly improbable. Christ himself often spoke figuratively and allegorically. So why hold Him to being a literalist when it comes to the book of Genesis? | ||
| Blake |
Another apologetic re the Genesis creation timeline claims that if relative to the Big Bang some apparent 13.4 billion years ago, God relayed the story of Genesis from His own perspective being that of entering His own creation and observing it from a relativistic frame, well 24 hours on his wristwatch would equate to massive spans of time at the particular point in space-time corresponding to planet Earth. It's an interesting theory. None of it really matters. Does anyone say that it's necessary to be a strict Genesis literalist to love Christ? | ||
| Aesquire |
http://qz.com/846498/the-speed-of-light-is-constan t-physicists-plan-to-test-a-new-theory-that-questi ons-einsteins-assumptions/ Blake, I'll have to read that but one can assume it to be relevant to me as much as a Communist description of Baptists. ........ ( reads page) Ok.... not bad. The part on Good & Evil needs some serious expansion though. Relativism as practiced by the State Worship cults is different. Just like the Torah there must be a lot of discussion on when what rational rules apply. For example, an over crowded life boat. Some would argue that some should be thrown overboard to lighten the load. Others would call for more bailing. In the case of a passenger who goes nuts and violent, threatening the safety of all, is it right to toss him to the sharks? Not simple questions and not easy answers. Or in modern context. Obama has formented wars and created waves of hundreds of thousands ( millions? ) of refugees. Do we turn away desperate people fleeing war because we know for a fact that the wave has thousands of enemy terrorists hiding amongst them? A question made more painful in it was the actions of a few that created this crisis, without consent of our representatives and apparently for evil purpose. ( at this point in history only fools & idiots believe the statements of this regime unquestioned. To assume evil intent & falsehood is sad, but justified by past lies ) So take any description of any faith with salt at hand. Men write theses things. | ||
| Alfau |
do you dream in riddles too ? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Because I get tired of trying to argue with dogmatics. (nothing wrong with dogma, it is probably critical for finding truth when there is already another entrenched but incorrect view... just don't pretend it isn't dogma). | ||
| Aesquire |
That doesn't mean that truth is relative. It means that truth can be multi-faceted. Yes. None of it really matters. Does anyone say that it's necessary to be a strict Genesis literalist to love Christ? Only some MEN who want to claim their own notions are immutable law. Not knocking any faith, but it is common for religions going back far before Jesus to claim to be the only true faith and all others are wrong. Pretty common to have wars about that. We are in one NOW. Faith is internal. Religions are created. The relationship between the two is complex and sometimes conflicted. We can disagree on a lot of stuff. Doesn't mean we hate one another. I don't like Seinfeld. Really don't. If you are a fan, I don't feel the need to hate you at all. As long as we don't conflict on stuff like rape and murder and theft, we can have friendly arguments about the other details. It's not going to make me hate Alfau if he smokes coprolites, or hashish, as long as he doesn't throw dingos into maternity wards.  | ||
| Hootowl |
I dream in Technicolor. The royalties are killing me. | ||
| Crusty |
I like Dingos. They make a pretty decent pair of boots. Why would anybody want to throw a pair of boots into a maternity ward? | ||
| Torquehd |
Christ himself often spoke figuratively and allegorically. Blake; there are allegories in the bible; Jesus told us exactly why he spoke in parables. Mark 4:11 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Jesus said he spoke in parables so that some would not believe. Can you believe that!? I think Proverbs 8:17 sheds light on this; "I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me." Wow, God reveals himself to those who seek him. If you're not seeking God, you might still find him when you consider the evidence of creation. But if you're intentionally NOT seeking God, chances are, God is not going to make you find Him. It's up to you to believe; it's not up to God to convince you. Now, back on topic - Genesis is not a parable. The ONLY reason to assume that it is a parable is that you want it to conform to something that you're outsourcing from somewhere other than the bible. Additionally, Genesis does not support darwinistic theories of origins. On the first day, God created light. He went on to separate light from dark and called them day and night accordingly. Day two - The sky is created, the waters are separated lower/upper Day 3 - Land appears, I want to quote this, "11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good." Now we have vegetation. But still no sunlight. Just light. Maybe God's luminance, it doesn't clarify. Day four - 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. NOW we finally have Stars, and Sun, and moon. NOW the grass and trees can grow. Now there are stars by which folks can keep track of times and seasons. Get that? You had vegetation BEFORE you had stars. That's not consistent with anything evolutionists theorize, and there's no reason to force the bible to support something that it does not say. Now on the fifth day, we finally have things swimming in the water and creeping on the ground. What? You mean life didn't start in the water and then work its way onto land? NO, it did not. Living things existed ON LAND before in the water. Then, day 6 - God creates man in HIS own image. If man evolved from a single celled organism, that means God's likeness started out that way as well. I refuse to entertain any idea of God evolving. God is God, and we are fashioned after His likeness. Day 6 is also when God gave animals permission to eat plants. So, if you want to believe that each day is an "age" or thousands of years; You have life for thousands of years before the sun exists to warm your "pro-biotic soup", or create weather. Additionally, we know that it did not rain on the rocks for millions of years, because rain did not exist until the time of Noah. You have plants growing for thousands of years with no sunlight. You still have life starting on land, not in the water. You have animals living for thousands of years without eating plants. You have two different stories, and they sharply contradict eachother. They just are not compatible. You need to decide which you're going to believe, the Bible, or a man made theory. The burden of proof is not upon God; he doesn't have to convince you that what he said is true. It's up to you to decide. If you can shake off the brainwashing that the earth is billions of years old, and just consider what the bible says, I think you will find that it makes way more sense. Evolution is absolutely absurd; it is a theory built upon improbabilities of trillions to one, but the default answer is, "well it's obviously true because we're all here". | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"Who wrote the science books? Who writes anything? Consider the source, not the implement. " Thank you. Man wrote them all, and man is flawed. Just because it is in the Bible does not make it so/true. | ||
| Torquehd |
Again, that depends on what you believe. If you're not a believer in the bible, then you believe it is only man made. If it were man made, then I would concede that it is subject to flaw. But if what the word of God says about itself is true, then for the believer, it was not written by man, but by God, and he has protected it over the course of time. 2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. I LOVE what John says about the word of God: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. WOW!! Jesus is the living embodiment of the Word of God. He is THE hermeneutic. AND, all of creation was made by him and with him. I can't wait to ask Jesus a few questions; I wonder if I'll have questions to ask or if I'll know already, in heaven. I love this: Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? Corresponds with Mat 21:44, Jesus said, concerning himself: And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. | ||
| Pwnzor |
The "days" in Creation could not have been our days, since the Earth did not yet exist, and the Sun by which we measure our days also did not exist, until they were created each in their turn. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
You believe God wrote the Bible? Which version? | ||
| Blake |
Bill, You're a literalist? Or you pretend to be one to avoid debate? LOL! Patrick, Totally agree about loving people, no caveats. It's what Christ taught. Yes, it can be difficult to know what that entails in some situations. The "love people" mandate and the prime directive to "love God" essentially say it all. No other commandments really need be stated if not for the hard heartedness of men. The challenge is that to love God, we need to know Him. Thus the revelation of Him via the Bible becomes important. What's funny is that we all really do know Him, until we lose sight through our own essentially lying about Him. Allowing sin to distort reality, eventually turning minds arrogant, depraved, and malicious. Refer to Paul's letter to the church in Romes circa a.d. 50. I think you commented that the rules changed even through the history covered by the Bible. But that's not really the case. The only change was in the nature of God's relationship with mankind. From strict law and justice to forgiveness and salvation. We do much the same with our own children, no? And then there is that issue of understanding the three different types of law mandates in the Old Testament. Do you remember those? 1) God's moral law, which applies to all (Love God, and Love People). 2) Israelite religious ceremonial law, which applies to Israel specifically. 3) Israelite civil law, which again applies to Israel specifically and as noted concerning others in their midst. It's kinda like how a a coach holds his team to a higher, stricter standard than he allows for other teams, or how parents hold their children to higher standards compared to other children. The thing with having no objectively true ultimate authority beyond ourselves or other men is that we tend to drift towards greed, lust, and power. | ||
| Blake |
Patrick, With your intellect, I think you'd really enjoy learning about Christian theology and the role of biblical narrative. You'll almost immediately discover that the popular caricatures of Christianity (love of Christ) are ludicrously false. It's obvious that you already are keenly aware of how evil men corrupt religion and lie about God for their own selfish aims. It's why the religious leaders had Jesus crucufied after all. The Vatican seems deaf and blind to that. Sad. Absent the God of the Bible, there can be no truth. The grand AI simulation has an author. Anytime we insert human reasoning to explain what truth is, we are invoking viciously circular reasoning. Cause we cannot know that our reasoning is valid based only upon our own reasoning. I hope Michio Kaku continues his quest for truth, and that he finds it in Christ. |
