| Author | Message | ||
     Zane |
Ok everyone, I'm not done gun shopping yet. I'm looking for a pistol that will: fit in a pants/jeans/cargo shorts pocket be at least .380 with a very strong preference for 9MM fairly mainstream so that I can get parts and service without a hassle Currently I'm looking at two guns. The first is the Sig Sauer P290  This is a hammer fired 9MM with a DOA trigger and restrike capability. It has a polymer frame and weighs about 20 ozs. The second is also a Sig Sauer product. Its the P938.  It is a 1911 style 9MM. It has a stainless slide and an alloy frame. It weighs 16ozs. Does anyone have experience with either or both of these firearms? Educated opinions? Thanks in advance | ||
| Reepicheep |
Don't let me ruin a case for buying a really nice gun (both of those look awesome). But I sure am happy with a sub $200 KelTec P3AT and a Nemesis pocket holster. (Message edited by reepicheep on June 20, 2016) | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
LCP I love mine for CC | ||
| Hootowl |
"The second is also a Sig Sauer product" I have a very similar Kimber in 380. There's a raft of 380s that look like they're the same gun from various manufacturers. If this is similar, just in 9, you'll love it. Very easy to conceal. I use an IWB holster, and even something as light as a tshirt completely hides it. | ||
| Tq_freak |
I have fired both the Sig's your looking at My boss had the P290 in 9mm first. Super small, easy to hold but very very snappy. Trigger pull was nice but for my hands it was hard to hold on to. He sold that and got a P938 Scorpion in 380 Awesome Gun, trigger is nice and no punch. also has to deal with the difference between 9 and .380 I carry a Sccy CPX-2 I usually pocket carry but sometimes IWB small of back. So far really happy with it, it fits most of your criteria other then readily available. But its a sub $300 gun and they have a really good life time warranty. No questions asked they will fix it. They will even replace it if it was stolen. I found out about them because they are manufactured Local in Daytona Beach. So parts aren't really a worry for me. Every gun shop local has a ton of them | ||
| Buellmojo |
Glock G42 (.380) or G43 (9mm). | ||
| Pwnzor |
Those look great to me, but I love my LCP  | ||
| Zane |
I'm trying to stay with a 9MM. If I have to use it, 9s have a bit more energy to transfer than a .380 and since all my recent acquisition are 9MM it would make logistics simpler. It will be easier to buy ammunition in bulk. Recent firearms to start living here with me are Glock 19 Gen4 ($500 cash), Glock 26 Gen4 ($500 cash), Glock 43 ($420 cash), and Sccy CPX-2 ($229 cash). I still have the Colt Officer's ACP in .45 and the Keltec in .32. Until recently the Keltec has been my pocket gun but let's face it, a .32 isn't much more than a poke in the face with a sharp stick. I want to trade up so that if I am forced to shoot someone, they'll notice. I see each of these firearms filling a different roll. The Colt is my primary house gun and it sleeps in an electronic lock box next to the bed. The Glocks will be my carry weapons. Weather conditions and clothing style, will dictate which once comes along for the ride. The Sccy is for the glove box. Now all I need is a true pocket gun and I should be good to go. I've had my Colt for more than 20 years and it's been 100% solid. In over 1500 rounds its never had a problem. It doesn't care if I feed it reloads, hollow points 180 or 230 grain ball. It just goes bang. All the Glocks have about 300 rounds through them so far without so much as a burp. I expect them to be completely solid as well. I have to say, I'm really enjoying them. The Sccy is the big surprise. I thought it would be an OK gun but it shoots really nice for such a long trigger pull. Shooting the second magazine, I had a failure to go into battery but a slap on the back of the slide fixed it. It has about 200 rounds through it now and that was the only failure. I'm putting it down as a break in issue. After the first trip to the gun range I came home to clean the guns. The Sccy has a captured recoil spring and when I took it apart the front flange that holds the springs in place had failed. I called Sccy customer service and explained the issue. Almost before I was finished describing the problem they offered to send me a new one free. I called on a Friday afternoon and the new spring assembly arrived in Wednesday's mail. The customer service was friendly and fast. I was happily impressed. My Keltec has about 700 rounds through it, give or take a few. I don't shoot it much because at just over 6 ounces it's pretty snappy. It's not really fun to shoot but I try to stay at lease proficient with it. I haven't had any problems with this gun either. When I bought it new, it went to a gunsmith that specialized in Keltecs. He polished the innards, then bead blasted the slide and plated it a dull nickel. It's been super easy to carry and very reliable. I also keep it in a Nemesis pocket holster. I'm a fan of Keltec products. With the guns I have now one of the biggest problems is deciding which one I like the best. So I feel like all I need now is a true pocket pistol in 9MM and I'm covered for any foreseeable situation. I looked at and like liked the LC9 but it's just too big for my pocket. Plus I've fondled the M&P, Keltec P-11 and the Springfield. XDs. All are good but aren't really pocket pistols. | ||
| Zane |
Forgot to attach the photo  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Remember .380 is really 9mm short. I haven't chrono'd anything, but I suspect the extra powder capacity you get in a true 9mm cartridge is mostly just making flash and smoke out of a barrel that is only about twice as long as the cartridge. OK, cool, found this site: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto2.html So from the P3AT or LCP, a 95 grain .380 bullet is going 888 fps. From an LC9, 115 grain rounds are going about 949 fps. So the .380 is 167 foot pounds of muzzle energy. Versus the 9mm at 231 foot pounds. So the .380 from a short barrel is about 72% of the energy of a 9mm. Factoring into that would be accuracy and recovery between shots. I've not tried an LC9, but I find the P3AT to be very easy to control. I don't use it as a recreational shooter though. I'll put a few magazines through it every few months for muscle memory, and grab a 1911A1 or a P220 for recreational paper punching. | ||
| Pwnzor |
a .32 isn't much more than a poke in the face I beg to differ... it might not knock somebody off their feet when you aim for center mass, but if I'm not close enough for a head shot, I'm probably using my feet rather than my trigger finger. | ||
| Zane |
Seems like giving up 28% of the possible energy is a lot to leave on the table. | ||
| Thumper74 |
My buddy/roomate has the P290. Loves it. I'm carrying a Glock 43 as EDC with a Ghost connector. I love this one. Not a single hiccup ever. | ||
| Reepicheep |
It is a big difference, but sometimes enough is enough, and more is just extra. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo- ballistic-tests/#380ACP So, depending on your ammo choice, you are either looking at a 8.5 inch deep hole that is .63 inches wide, or a 25 inch deep hole that is .36 inches wide. That's a lot of damage that will let an awful lot of the fight out of someone or something pretty quickly. The first other factor is recovery between shots (which will be better with a .380, but I don't know how much). The second biggest factor is probably if the gun will ever hit some threshold that makes you less likely to carry it. Like a $1000 Nikon versus a crap Iphone camera, the camera that is with you will take infinitely better pictures than the one you started leaving at home after a few months because it was ultimately a huge pain in the ass to carry around. The biggest factor is likely shot placement. I suspect any 3 well placed rounds would be fairly effective in most situations, including .22 lr. (OK, well, maybe not a Webly shooting .38 S&W from a short barrel  ) | ||
| Aesquire |
Simple facts. Ammo today is a far cry from twenty years ago. Americans consider the .380 marginal. That's almost justified. Bullets are lighter than a 9mm parabelum. ( means war. 9mm luger to old farts ) Velocity is lower. Ignore the F.B.I. specs. They call for shooting through car doors, glass & walls. You shouldn't have that goal and if it is part of your need.... get a 10mm. The part that's important is can you get twelve to eighteen inches of penetration? Assume ballistic gell is a good analogy test medium. The answer is. Yes with some loads. Not all. If you're lucky the good performance loads shoot well in your pistol. Don't forget the 9mm was marginal a while ago. Perfectly good today with the right ammo. Hard ball is lousy defense ammo. Use it for practice or plinking, never for carry. A .380 in your pocket at the crime scene is infinitely better than a 12ga Saiga under your bed at home. That all said I prefer a LC9 to it's .380 brothers. I don't run plus p and prefer premium ammo for carry. In 9mm the Federal Guard Dog is marginal on penetration. But it functions like hard ball. Nice light, but snappy, recoil. It's more a question of fit. I like the grip on the 9 and it's Baby bro is small for my hand.ymmv | ||
| Blake |
Lehigh Defense has rewritten the book on defensive effectiveness versus caliber with their light for caliber Extreme Defender fluted solid copper projectiles. They outperform hollow points and have none of the problems of hollow points. https://www.underwoodammo.com/380-acp-65-grain-xtr eme-defender/ Technical Information The .380 is now on par with 9mm Luger. The +P loading is even better... https://www.underwoodammo.com/380-acp-p-65-grain-xtreme-defender/ Muzzle Velocity: 1400 fps (Message edited by Blake on June 20, 2016) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Interesting. They went to a low mass high velocity approach to increase muzzle energy. (Energy increases exponentially with velocity, but only linearly with mass) | ||
| Pwnzor |
I am ordering some of those today. Those numbers are freaking awesome. | ||
| Hootowl |
Wow. Purchased | ||
| Zane |
This is all great information. Thanks to all. | ||
| Aesquire |
Credit where due. Polycase developed that tech as part of a program to make plastic cased non reloadable ammo for the military. The idea was the enemy would not be able to glean the battlefield for shell casings.. while the cases are still in development the eggbeater bullets are in production. Ruger was the first to buy this tech and offer it for sale. Available from both Ruger & Polycase. This is the first big difference in ammo since controlled expansion bullets were developed by Hornady with their interlock bullets & Speer with their bonded. Credit also to Hornady for plastic tips, following Remington with their bronze point.... and a now gone Canadian company with the first commercial tipped ammo. Special mention to the Brits for wood plugs used decades ago in iirc .303 military ammo. With cordite no less. The Polycase design is new in that it does not use expansion to increase damage. In brute terms bullets work by poking holes to let the angry out. Bigger hole faster it works. That's the simple basis for the preference for 45's over 9mm/.36" ammo by U.S. military elite units. Hardball as required by the Geneva convention does not expand so the holes are directly proportional to bullet size. ( strictly speaking the Geneva convention bans expanding bullets because the Brits used "dum dum" bullets in the Boer war. ) | ||
| Sifo |
Penetration testing can yield some interesting results. Barrel length matters! It's good to see testing with a similar length barrel. 9mm in some short barrels can be marginal. .380 even more so. A cartridge that performs well with a full size gun, can wind up over penetrating with the lower velocities of a short barrel. Quite counter intuitive until you consider that lowering the velocity can prevent expansion of the bullet. It can wind up being just like using FMJ ammo. It's possible for a round to under penetrate with a long barrel gun, but way over penetrate from a short barrel gun. Testing data is your friend! I'm not saying that .380 is a bad choice. It will rock over the .45 ACP you left at home. All I'm saying is do your homework on ammo selection. Look for testing with a similar sized gun. On youtube, ShootingTheBull410 has done a lot of testing of 9mm and .380 out of short barrels. Far better testing that I want to invest in. Very interesting too. Not having seen any testing on the Lehigh Defense ammo, I have no opinion. I will say that every now and then a new bullet comes along that will change everything. Usually for a very short time, when it gets some real independent testing done. I'm certainly not saying this will be the case with Lehigh Defense. It's just that I would rather trust my life to something I've seen tested from a similar gun.  | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/10/ 23/tested-the-polycase-arx-bullet/ Testing? Here ya go. Your point about barrel length and penetration/expansion is important. Speer, and others make ammo specifically for short barrel guns with faster burning powder to be more efficient in a short barrel, and less flash. The FBI barrier testing is really not that important to civilians, since you usually won't be shooting through cars.... OTOH, responding to the typical drive by shooting beloved by drug gangs.... Bottom line is the FBI spec stuff tends to over penetrate at home defense range. It's not a huge difference, ANYTHING goes through walls if it has the oomph to work on people. In the real world, premium civilian defensive ammo is better, more or less, than the Law Enforcement ammo. Better if you aren't shooting though stuff, not quite as good if you are. If the designer was smart it should work with leather jackets and winter coats, which is the logic for polymer tipped pistol bullets. Old school hollow points can clog with cloth & leather and not expand. A LOT of new tech out there. While the basic weapons are unchanged in principal for over a century, a lot of stuff works better with detail improvements. Metallic cased ammo had been around since the Civil War. Smokeless powder since the mid 1800's. Plastic & light alloys, same era. Semi-auto & full auto guns since the late 1800's. Pretty much only Lasers are newer than a century old in fire arms. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/shootingt hebull410/ammo-quest-polycase-arx-inceptor-in-380- acp-and-9mm/ | ||
| Hootowl |
I bought the defense version. Pretty impressive gelatin test. | ||
| Mtnmason |
Anyone else here load their carry mags with a variety of different bullets? Apparently, it's what all the cool kids are doing these days and it makes logical sense, I suppose. Never know which one may expand, under-penetrate, over-penetrate, lose it's jacket, etc. May as well give yourself some options. Currently, my .40 FN is loaded with PDX-1, Fed HST and a few FMJs for good measure. All 165 gr (which I've read but not experienced tend to be a bit less accurate from a short barrel than the 180). \ back on-topic (somewhat): I only carry ball in my .380 the few rare times it gets carried. If anyone tells you that FMJ is not suitable defense ammo, ask them if they'd care to stand in front of it themselves ;^) | ||
| Court |
If you are sneaking into NYC with a load of illegal weapons, body armor and a boat load of ammunition . . . THIS is not the way to do it. Idiots abound. | ||
| Mtnmason |
^ a "cracked windshield" my hairy white a$$ | ||
| Blake |
Patrick, That Lehigh Defense is a whole class above the Polycase ARX, which has poor penetration and breaks apart. The Lehigh Defense bullet is solid copper, much superior to polycase's offering. Sifo, It's been tested every which way, FBI gelatin, with and without coverings/barriers, including denim, wallboard, pine boards, windshield glass, car doors, and it always performs well. YouTube it, you'll be quickly sold on the idea, though maybe not on the price. | ||
| Court |
>>>though maybe not on the price. Ain't that the truth . . .. $800 for 500 rounds. But . . .it's proven stuff. |
