| Author | Message | ||
     Ducbsa |
My objections to Obamacare are about how it was passed: Serial Obama lies about the benefits, with no GOP amendments allowed, the speed that an unreadable document * was pushed through, and the phony reconciliation procedure that was used. Also, the repeated delays in statutory deadlines that postponed the hurt until after elections, the ineptitude of the website, and how the Congress exempted itself from Obamacare. I suppose the duplicity about the regime claiming it was a penalty, except when in front of the Supreme Court, where it was a tax is just frosting on the cake. If it was so damn good, why was so much lying and cheating necessary? * Pelosi: "Pass it to find what's in it." | ||
| Hootowl |
What we're buying are health plans, not health insurance. By definition, there is no insurance under ACA. Yes, opting out. No, they don't pay the fine either. For younger folks who don't earn much, and don't have much of a tax return, there is no way for the government to collect. So the young folks the ACA relies upon to foot the bill for the older folks (like the SS Ponzi scheme) are indeed opting out, leading to the death spiral. The number crunchers NOT working for dems predicted this before it was passed. Actually, the dem's number crunchers did too...there's video of one of the big players telling a friendly room that ACA is just a stepping stone on the road to a government single payer system. They knew it would fail. It was designed to fail. | ||
| Fmaxwell |
@Ducbsa wrote: "My objections to Obamacare are about how it was passed: Serial Obama lies about the benefits, with no GOP amendments allowed," Why should anyone allow GOP amendments when their entire intent was to prevent the health care reform from working and to 'make Obama a one term President'? I wish we had pushed through full-on socialized medicine and completely cut the insurance companies out of the deal. I want the same kind of health care that they have in Germany, Britain, France, etc. And don't tell me that it doesn't work well because that's just a bunch of GOP horsefeces; the satisfaction in those countries with their health care far exceeds what we had in the US before or after the ACA. Ducbsa wrote: "If it was so damn good, why was so much lying and cheating necessary?" No one lied or cheated. Stop being absurd. No one intended to create a sucky website any more than the DoD intended to leak my SF86 to the Chinese. Conservatives have a lot of nerve to accuse us of lying and cheating after their claims of weapons of mass destruction, promises of a war that would be over in a few months, being greeted as liberators, and just about every lie about every weapons system that the GOP pushed through that went billions of dollars over-budget and years behind schedule. Hootowl wrote: "What we're buying are health plans, not health insurance. By definition, there is no insurance under ACA." You're making up fiction. Here's just one little paragraph from the ACA: (2) REPORTING REQUIREMENTS (A) IN GENERAL. A group health plan and a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insur- ance coverage shall annually submit to the Secretary, and to enrollees under the plan or coverage, a report on wheth- er the benefits under the plan or coverage satisfy the ele- ments described in subparagraphs (A) through (D) of para- graph (1). Hootowl wrote: "Yes, opting out. No, they don't pay the fine either. For younger folks who don't earn much, and don't have much of a tax return, there is no way for the government to collect." The IRS will hold back the amount of the fee from any future tax refunds. If that does not work, I'm perfectly amenable to passing a law to make not paying it a crime. Hootowl wrote: "So the young folks the ACA relies upon to foot the bill for the older folks (like the SS Ponzi scheme)..." That is exactly how insurance is supposed to work. If you're a 75 year old man who has had cancer and a heart bypass, you're not supposed to be charged $50,000 per year by being placed in a group that only contains other elderly cancer and heart attack survivors. The entire idea of health insurance is to spread the risk over a large pool. That way, when the "young folks" get to be old folks, they can still afford insurance. | ||
| Aesquire |
No one intended to make a c rappy website? Perhaps, gee that would be idiotic. What is true is the website is ample evidence of corruption. A college buddy of Michelle, and they still had to bribe Obama to get the contract, and it was a company with a history of incompetence. Even Canada fired them for fail. Hey, I'm glad it worked for you. Doesn't make it defensible that it was a pack of dishonesty start to finish. | ||
| Reindog |
Ask the Veterans how well the Government runs a socialized medicine program. Don't forget Medicare. Socialism does not work no matter how much you wish it so. If that does not work, I'm perfectly amenable to passing a law to make not paying it a crime. That is pretty scary and completely un-American. A next step would be to make it a crime to be a member of the Democrat Party. See how it works when you start heading down this path? | ||
| Sifo |
Hootowl wrote: "Yes, opting out. No, they don't pay the fine either. For younger folks who don't earn much, and don't have much of a tax return, there is no way for the government to collect." The IRS will hold back the amount of the fee from any future tax refunds. If that does not work, I'm perfectly amenable to passing a law to make not paying it a crime. Actually, I work with a number of people who are doing exactly what Hootowl says. Are you really suggesting we jail people because they can't afford the mandated insurance? | ||
| Strokizator |
Want to have the type of medical as the European countries? Easy, just take the money you'd be paying in much higher income taxes, VAT, $6/gal gasoline, etc, and give it to a health exchange. In return they will provide medical services "free". And if a routine examination shows you have a tumor, they'll promise to get around to addressing it in as little as 6 months. I'd be interested to hear what you think the penalty should be when you criminalize failure to buy insurance. When they throw me in prison for not buying insurance, do I get coverage under the prison's plan? | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Democrats and liberals cry like a young child who was promised ice cream for desert but gets angry when he is told no when he asks to have it before dinner...Or... when he gets a cookie instead. Then they cross their arms and pout while stomping their feet and making that grumpy "hmmm" sound. (meaning no). | ||
| Reepicheep |
The ACA plans are much better coverage. But you are forced to buy them. So people that were buying catastrophic care coverage, but paying for other medical needs in cash, don't have that option anymore. It is illegal. Now many simply can't afford the greater coverage they never wanted. I'm glad it's working out for some people at least. And I'm glad there are controls that prevent insurance companies from collecting your money while you are healthy then dropping you when you are sick. I don't think the ACA act was the best way to do it. I feel this way because I am just not comfortable forcing another human being to do something they aren't choosing to do of their own free will. And because if I have to subsidize their medical expenses, I also have the right and obligation to force them to follow particular behaviors to manage the costs they are forcing me to pay. And the thought of controlling another person is abhorrent to me. | ||
| Oddball |
Reep, Eventually it will happen. "We're sorry, but your favorite activities (motorcycling for an example) have been found dangerous and thus unhealthy. Anything unhealthy is therefore a burden on the healthcare system and thusly illegal" - Raymond Cocteau Perhaps we should dine at Taco Bell? hehe | ||
| Gowindward |
Fred, glad the ACA has worked out well for you and your wife. I opted OUT by going with LibertyHealthShare.org It is not an ACA plan or insurance company. So that does remove me from the ACA mess IMHO. | ||
| Hootowl |
"That is exactly how insurance is supposed to work" That's not how insurance works. ACA isn't insurance. Insurance involves pools of people with similar risks betting that they will collect more than they pay in if they get sick. The insurance company bets they will take in more than they pay out. A 20 year old and a 75 year old are not in the same risk pool. ACA did away with insurance, in favor of health plans subsidized by tax payers and the young. Young folks have realized they're being suckered by the same group of people (their parents and grandparents) who have run up the debt, and broken social security. Now those same people want them to pay for their medial care too. They're not buying it. | ||
| Doz |
Sorry Fmax, but there were lies. "you can keep your doctor"- LIE "you can keep your plan"-LIE Hope this thing goes down the toilet and pulls down everyone that voted for it. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That is another valid point. There were flat out lies in passing the law, and they knew they were lying at the time. "This is not a tax" was only found constitutional because the people claiming it wasn't a tax declared under oath it was a tax. It was a bald faced lie, plain and simple. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
No matter how loud you prove them wrong, hey not listening.... first they cross arms , then stomp feet in denial.... finally they put their fingers in they ears and sing la de da. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Pive n_strategy To be fair, I should probably post the CBS version that says it's all a paranoid fantasy of the Tea Baggers. But since I found that article to be full of half truths and innuendos, look it up yourself if you want. I do love how Published Tactics for the destruction of our way of life, are fantasy. But you have to expect that from those who follow Alinsky. Btw if you have not read the basic manual for how to lie your way to power, by all means read "Rules for Radicals". It was the subject of Hillary's senior thesis, and the Bible for Barack's college mentors and idols. I read it in High school, and it really opened my eyes to the true nature of the Progressive movement. Now, it's not true that there were NO amendments to the Unaffordable Care Act put in by Republicans. They slid a poison pill in that required Congressional staffers to go on Obamacare. Barack delayed that provision, among others, until after the election, ( illegally, btw ) but when it DID kick in, Congress had a screaming fit. So Barack broke the law he signed, again, and paid for Congress staffers health insurance with your money. From an account it was illegal for him To use. "It's Good to be the King. Pull!" And, it was a bipartisan screaming fit. So if you want to check out how much a POS your congresscritter is, check his position on his staff having to pay for their own insurance. If he was a screaming weasel, vote against him next time. edit. I've found 5 different "interpretations" on how the Congressional poison pill went down. 4 of them are contradictory, and 1 isn't complimentary to Congress. I know which I Believe. In the end, a Federal Court ruled it was ok to use a small business exchange and subsidize Congress, since the ACA would have been a "pay cut" of several thousand dollars. Just like mine was. But Barry didn't bail me out. (Message edited by aesquire on December 12, 2015) | ||
| Aesquire |
Conservatives have a lot of nerve to accuse us of lying and cheating after their claims of weapons of mass destruction.... Ah, I understand now. You believe the most horrible lies by some of the most horrible people. Terribly sorry to even try and burst your delusion. Yes, By all means enjoy your free stuff, and pay no attention to facts or history. It's much, much easier to be angry at stuff that didn't happen than to be furious at stuff that is. Best wishes. Merry Christmas. Rocking Saturnalia. Happy Hanukkah. Pleasant Solstice. BTW, I'm NOT a Conservative. I'm an old school Liberal. ( but not the bleeding Heart kind. I take pills for that ) | ||
| Aesquire |
Guys, lay off him. I'm afraid He'll get a stroke or something if he's forced to see reality. All you are doing is making him more and more angry by arguing with facts. Of course, I could be wrong. But I'm 97% sure he never can be. Fmaxwell, for the love of Alinsky, do not go to this link. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=eab_1201152136 (Message edited by aesquire on December 12, 2015) | ||
| Hootowl |
Linkie no workie. | ||
| Pwnzor |
That's some real good Kool-aid right there. Government officials have exempted themselves from the ACA. That tells me everything I need to know, right there. Meanwhile, my rates have gone up every year since it's inception. This last year, the rates DOUBLED and this is when my company dumped the "gold" plan for the "silver" plan. I went to the urgent care a few saturdays back, and it cost me $120 in copays to get a scrip for some antibiotics. Sinus infection that I've been fighting for 15 years now, 2 surgeries haven't fixed it, and once in a while it goes crazy so I need some 'cillin. The whole process used to cost me about $40 including the Rx. Now it's $120 PLUS the scrip. F*ckers tried to charge me for my wife's yearly mammogram, had to fight that the last two years in a row. Colonoscopy and remove polyps, tried to hit me for that one too, even though it's covered. They send us bills for everything, in hopes that we will just blindly pay them. I wonder how often that works. They come with semi-threatening letters attached. Instead of ACA it should be USA. The Unaffordable Scare Act. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=eab_1201152136 Sorry, I have that problem when I edit a post. Ignorance on my part. | ||
| Aesquire |
Apparently the logic in court was that since they ( Congress Minions ) already had employer paid insurance, that forcing them to pay for it themselves was a pay cut. Makes sense. Barry filled in the gap illegally, I think temporarily, and now they are using an exchange and all tax payer paid, per usual. Now, from a Labor point of view, this all makes sense, and Don't ask Me about the Law point of view. ( you can even make the case that Barry acting as a Dictator did good in this case. As well as foiling a dastardly attempt to make Congress feel the same pain as Citizens. ) As a taxpayer, I'm annoyed that an attempt to make Congress feel some of the pain of Us Citizens failed. Eh.  Not going to worry about it. There will be more changes and legal challenges. You want it changed, hire better jerks. ( Congress, does after all, work for us, right? ) | ||
| Sifo |
Regarding the "death spiral", it seems to be happening... UnitedHealth warns it may exit Obamacare plans My brother-in-law was all for BOcare a year ago. He was just talking about it to my wife Thanksgiving weekend. It seems that he has suddenly realized that if he actually gets sick, his out of pocket expenses will pretty much bankrupt him anyway. What's the point if you can't afford to use it in the first place. The argument was to give people yearly health checkups, but that could be done quite cheaply by other means. It's a bit like expecting your car insurance to provide oil changes. Yes, it could be mandated by law, but it would be cheaper to simply pay for oil changes directly. | ||
| Aesquire |
True, but at least I'm now covered for pre-natal vitamins. If I needed them but couldn't afford them, this would be a great thing. Since I'm in NY, I Think I'm also paying for Aromatherapy, Acupuncture and Chiropratric care. For what it's worth. Not everything about Obamacare is evil. Mussolini made the trains run on time. | ||
| Ducbsa |
Maybe Fmaxwell will believe the vaunted Washington Post on Obama's lies, which rated Four Pinocchios : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/w p/2013/10/30/obamas-pledge-that-no-one-will-take-a way-your-health-plan/ Or the equally vaunted LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-goldber g-obamacare-failure-20131029-column.html#axzz2j5ip lMOB | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Where is all the money going? In 1978, I had my first major medical event....a hernia repair. It cost me *1/2 weeks wages* out of pocket. I was happy,the doctors were happy and the hospital was happy. It was not a financial burden. Today,that same repair would cost me *a months wages* out of pocket. Add the insurance premiums and it's $8,500.00 for the year. That is HUGE...nearly 30% of my income. Who's getting rich?  | ||
| Pwnzor |
Everybody but us. | ||
| Macbuell |
Lawyers. Malpractice Insurance is one of, if not, the highest expense for most doctor's today. What education / background do most politicians have? That's right ... they are mostly lawyers. There is a reason Tort reform always dies in Washington. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
So, I just applied online and got signed up. (Horizon thru njstate) I don't make enough money now to pay so I will be getting free health care for a few months until I am working steady again. Currently I am an Uber Driver, not making enough. (Luckily I have a better half) I just signed up this afternoon, gonna see how long this takes and what it covers. I had cancer and that doc is the only doc I see regular (2x a year). At the time of surgery (2012) I had insurance but they didn't cover everything, I am still paying that off. Then, 6 months ago I had some chest pains and went to ER, they found nothing, everything was good. Still getting bills for that day. (I pay what I can). Both of those won't be paid by the new healthcare as they only go back 3 months (I think) but at least I will have something temporarily until I get things going again. For years I never had/needed any insurance, anytime I got hurt it was an ER thing and I paid what I could over time. No reg docs needed. I guess being over 50 changed this. | ||
| Fmaxwell |
Xdigitalx wrote: "Democrats and liberals cry like a young child who was... I'm not the one crying and whining -- the Republicans on here are. I pay for my insurance (without subsidies) just as I did when I had my own business. I'm not whining about it at all. Sifo wrote: "My brother-in-law was all for BOcare a year ago. ... It seems that he has suddenly realized that if he actually gets sick, his out of pocket expenses will pretty much bankrupt him anyway." How can $5,500 bankrupt him? That's what my out-of-pocket maximum is on my Blue Cross, Blue Shield plan. It's not a Platinum or Gold plan -- just a Silver. Reindog wrote: "That is pretty scary and completely un-American." It's neither. How is it "un-American" to make it a crime to not obey a federal regulation? Hootowl wrote: "That's not how insurance works. ACA isn't insurance. Insurance involves pools of people with similar risks betting that they will collect more than they pay in if they get sick." That's not even close to correct. The primary purpose of insurance is to protect you from catastrophic losses, not for you to turn a profit (trust me, you don't want medical care costs that exceed the cost of your premiums). What you're describing is as dumb as betting against the house in Las Vegas; the insurance companies are going to take in more than they pay out. It's how they stay profitable and in business. It's economically asinine to suggest that 63 year old cancer patients should be grouped together for $5K/month premiums. That's not how insurance is supposed to work. We're supposed to be a society, not a pack of wolves that leaves our elderly, sick, and injured to die. |
