| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
>>>>You were probably joking, but Buell and several associated words and logos are still trademarks owned by H-D U.S.A., LLC. That is inaccurate. I am not certain about BUELL (specifically) but I posted, over a year ago I believe, all the USPTO surrender documents for the rest of the trademarks and logos. Then there was the knock down drag out battle over . STREETFIGHTER | ||
| Gobadgers |
Did the Milwaukee Business Journal get it right when they said, "Hero MotoCorp, which formerly owned almost half of the company, will buy Erik Buell Racing’s technology and design consulting operation. Hero’s purchase of that segment of the company was approved in court on Thursday." Is that a proper characterization? Or did Hero just buy some of the work that was being prepared for them? The purchase of "Erik Buell Racing's technology" seems to be the main asset the business had going forward. | ||
| Readyxb |
I'm not sure who to believe. I have communicated directly with Judy Henslee, the manager of Global Brand Protection for Harley-Davidson, within the past new months about this very topic. If you have doubts, give her a call. And if you get a different answer, please share. (Message edited by readyxb on August 08, 2015) | ||
| Readyxb |
I didn't ask her about STREETFIGHTER, so I have no idea. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Court - how long, or rather, how SOON, could a company get EPA approval etc? Since its already met all of the requirements previously, it should shorten the time, right? Or is it going to be at least a year or so before a new 1190asdlkfjal;dfja comes out? (hypothetically if they wanted to keep making what the factory was already doing) OR Could they do 'kit bikes' until then to skip some of the EPA requirements? | ||
| Sifo |
I may be incorrect but I do not think the EBR entity survives the receivership. Assuming the rights to the EBR name was in one of the pieces auctioned off, they could just start up again as EBR, couldn't they? I know the legal stuff is more complicated, but I'm talking the EBR name and logo. I kind of doubt those rights went with the piece that Hero purchased. If they would want to reuse the EBR name and logo... Well, I'm waiting for Bruce to contact me. | ||
| Court |
I've had plenty of dealings with Judy over the years. Either she is wrong or the USPTO is. I've neither an opinion nor a worry about which. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Court - any comment on my question? Just curious what kind of wait time there might be to get things rolling again | ||
| Hughlysses |
IIRC, an anonymous poster claiming to be an HD lawyer posted up about 2010 that they had been directed not to devote any effort to pursue Buell copyright violations. | ||
| Court |
The anonymous post was not Judy, it was her associate. The "how long" gets a bit dicier. I'd lean toward 18 months to get a bike out the door.....legally. But I can see.....albeit a long shot ...... Where a compelling argument could be made for a legal trick that would cut that to 90 days. Elves are scattered.....except for some key people. But, East Troy, WI ..... Owing to a preponderance of manufacturing in Wisconsin.....has a wealth of people with great basic skills who could quickly go through an Elf-prenticeship and be kicking world class ass in 90 days. Some lessons learned, from recent EBR experience, could/should/must be addressed in the interim and could make valuable use of the "come online" time before job #1 rolls. The possibilities are exciting. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Thanks for the update, Court. Hopefully the time to re-start production will be short rather than LONG. Some lessons learned, from recent EBR experience, could/should/must be addressed in the interim and could make valuable use of the "come online" time before job #1 rolls. Judging from his comments in the two newspaper articles, it sounds like Bruce already has some definite ideas about this. BTW- if you didn't already, check out his post in the "meet the new owner of EBR" thread: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=4062&post=2500467#POST2500467 | ||
| Court |
I've been following this ....... Pushing 30 years of Buell own ship.....very closely. I'm excited. I know what I'd do at 0800 tomorrow. Eager to see how this all moves ahead. | ||
| Whatever |
As an environmental scientist I would say WI DNR would be a much bigger holdup than USEPA. Walker has decided to fire 1/3 of all scientists at the agency. As far as I know EPA is still fully staffed in Chicago. Then again if DNR rubber stamps a bunch of cr#p that doesn't meet Federal standards, which is the Walker plan, it could take several years of litigation to sort out. | ||
| Snacktoast |
Did I miss something? WTF does the WI DNR have to do with any of this? | ||
| Steve_a |
EBR employees are not as scattered as you might think, though many good people have gone to great jobs at other companies (Polaris, H-D, Honda, Zero Motorcycles, a California lithium-ion battery company, etc.). EBR had a substantially larger engineering staff (and an incredibly good one) than Buell ever had, and the vast marjority of the people were working on Hero projects. EBR put out the 1190RS when it had a total of about 15 employees at 1499 Buell Drive. It's just the matter of having the right people. The new EBR will not need everyone that was working at the old one, at least not for awhile . . . and will still be capable of designing and producing world class motorcycles. | ||
| Davegess |
The really big question has been raised and it is how does the receivership effect the EBP certs and the various states franchise agreements? One way to read it is that everything the old companioned is now owned by the new company except the debt. That would seem to me to that they can continue where they left off. Doing a new EPA cert would require several months of time to conduct the test and to get the paperwork through the proper channels. Franchising could be worked out faster than the EPA stuff. I am not a lawyer so I am guessing here. | ||
| Whatever |
Snack- most environmental permits go through the state. With East Troy being in Wisconsin, Hazwaste and Air (the two big permits for that kind of production) would go through DNR. Some facilities are small enough that EPA pretty much has nothing to do with them- except for a final check that they meet Federal requirements. However, there are other permits-programs that are purely Federal, like TRI. Others remain local as reporting requirements are mainly to to city or town, such as wastewater. Unless their process has changed significantly, such as adding a new dip tank or adding a new WWTX system onsite it's just a matter of small tweaks, paying a fee and waiting in line for review. (Message edited by Whatever on August 09, 2015) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Nice to see Steve and Dave chiming in here. ARRGGGHHH I'd like to be a fly on the wall in East Troy on Monday morning!  | ||
| Snacktoast |
Snack- most environmental permits go through the state Ok, was having trouble understanding what you were getting at since your post was FULL of political frustration IF you are referring to the facility where EBR did business, I would put good money on them not having owned the buildings. I would also venture to say that they are not creating hazardous waste or damaging the local air quality by being in business. All production motorcycle components are manufactured off-site. If you're referring to anything motorcycle related, the enviro agencies involved with certifications are the EPA and CARB. | ||
| Whatever |
HW includes, paints, solvents, and regulated combustibles like oil etc. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming... | ||
| 86129squids |
Dang, Char- I knew you knew all this EPA esoterica... mebbe Bruce has a decent job for ya!?!?  | ||
| Hughlysses |
I spent some time trying to see if I could find any info on the questions/hurdles Court has posed for the "new" EBR, without much luck. I found a couple of examples of companies in Wisconsin that were purchased out of receivership and re-opened, but there are not nearly enough details to tell if it was like starting a new company as far as licensing and permits. Since Wisconsin is the only state with receivership it's very likely EBR is the first-ever vehicle manufacturer to go through the process, so they may well be plowing new ground. From a logical standpoint, it seems like the vehicle certifications and some of the similar licenses/permits would just require some sort of letter saying EBR is now owned by the Atlantic Metals Group and will continue to produce the same motorcycles under the EBR name. Unfortunately, logic is often not involved in such matters.  | ||
| D_adams |
That's kinda what I was thinking as well. It's still the same company, just a new owner. Why would anything have changed as far as the EPA or whoever that would be all over this stuff? All the hoops have been jumped through already, it's just a continuation of where they left off 3 months ago, right? | ||
| Court |
Unright.......I think But,it depends on the way the statute and the agreements are written. What you are describing is a Chapter. 11 Bankruptcy......a Federal Law ..... Sometimes called "reorganization. In that case some deals are stuck and the business entity survives. There is also a Chapter 7 ....also a Federal law....so,ermines called a liquidation. In this case the assets are sold, traded or otherwise conveyed to maximize value and creditors are paid, based on a legal hierarchy......employee trust accounts (wages and taxes)...... Secured creditors (and there's an order of precedence in this group) and finally " all others" If a company could incur $20,000,000 worth of debt.....bolt to thesaurus of the court ...sell the remaining assets for $2,000,000 and go back in business the next day.."....well, you can see the complications...legally and with vendors. But....to repeat......I've not read the agreements I hope the bikes are rolling out of East Troy next week. | ||
| Ljm |
So, I spent some time pondering this, which is about worth as much as it seems it would be. But I also spent some time researching acquisitions of motor companies. I started with Saab, which is probably not a good example, because they are not imported to the U.S. any more, but when GM sold them initially, the new owners, and the next several continued to sell the existing platforms until they were exhausted. I then looked at the serial sales of Mini, to BMW, Rover to what appears to be at its conclusions, Mahindra via Ford, and Ducati to VW. In each of those sales/acquisitions the existing models were produced on a continual basis through the sales, and continued to be sold in the U.S. So, for what it is worth, there is at least a precedent for sale of existing models, and continuing current designs. Newer designs appear to be subject to regulations as with any new design even if they were on the drawing board previously. None of those manufacturing facilities are based in Wisconsin. I am not sure that makes a difference. It may given politics there. But in the instances cited above, the faces in the boardroom changed but production either restarted or continued. Hopefully, this is the direction that EBR is headed. | ||
| Snacktoast |
I hope the bikes are rolling out of East Troy next week. I honestly hope they aren't. And here's why... There is some work to do on the backend to not only formulate a plan, but build the infrastructure (i.e. the people that will execute it) to put it in place. This is a case where I think very careful planning will pay long term dividends. The way the plan is executed will speak volumes to past EBR customers, future EBR customers, and the dealer base. I want nothing more than to see them succeed. ...but I'm just a guy that has never owned a business. However, I've learned an enormous amount working in the industry for the past 11 years. | ||
| Hughlysses |
The only other vehicle manufacturer from Wisconsin I could think of that might have gone through something similar was American Motors, and their predecessor Nash, both of whom were located in Kenosha. However, neither AMC nor Nash ever went through receivership as far as I can tell. It does seem like "new" EBR would at least to be able to sell the (alleged) 100 complete bikes sitting in the factory and hopefully assemble and sell the (alleged) 250 bikes worth of parts sitting at the factory. If they can do that, that gives them some time to jump through all the legal/business hurdles and get full-on production of new bikes going again. | ||
| Thumper74 |
Just kicking an idea around... If the bikes were the same specification as the old ones, why wouldn't the same certifications cover them? | ||
| Snacktoast |
So, lets assume that the 2015 model year specs and regulatory requirements are still valid for the 2016 model year - I don't believe there are any changes to the EPA regs. Of course assuming that they produced 2016 model year bikes. Which begs the question...if production were to resume in the very near future, would they produce 2015 or 2016 model year bikes? There is a large change required for 2016 model year bikes in the EU - ABS. (Message edited by snacktoast on August 09, 2015) | ||
| Bud |
very glad to see. like i said, long and bumpy road ahead, but at least there is a road the right people in the right places, will act as a perfect tuned suspension, and EBR / with out the E ..nhaa will not be the same, part off the passion, part off the love |
