| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
OK, nobody else took the bait, so I used google and some basic math. Hero gives $25M ($15M initially, with $10M promised later) for 49% ownership of EBR. EBR is owed $8M for engineering work done by Hero. So if Hero only gave the $15M, and never paid up the next $10M (perhaps what broke the back of the previous EBR), that means Hero was $15M in the hole with their investment. But they got $8M of engineering work that they never paid for. So of that $15M write down, they are really only down $7M. But now they pony up another $2.8M to escape with free and clear possession of all the information and IP rights for everything EBR was doing for them. So Hero's loss is arguably about $10M at this point (above and beyond the $8M they paid for engineering services). I don't have any insider info, this is all just deductive speculation. | ||
| Reepicheep |
(And note to self... do NOT try and screw Erik Buell...) | ||
| Tpoppa |
Reep, If I am understanding your post correctly, are you speculating that EBR essentially entered this receivership to "stick it" to Hero? I really doubt that is the case. Because in the process they would have also "stuck it" to employees, suppliers, dealers, etc. (Message edited by tpoppa on July 31, 2015) | ||
| Reepicheep |
No, I think EBR entered into receivership because Hero tried to "stick it" to EBR. Hero would promise $10M, push the partner to make a lot of costly investments, then wait until the last second to withhold $10M that had been committed. No startup can survive that kind of stunt intact. Then Hero swoops in and buys the leftovers for pennies on the dollar because the company is now out of business. Pure speculation on my part, but it appears to be a pattern Hero engaged in elsewhere. But EBR, like Agent K at the end of Men In Black when he gets eaten by the Alien and it appears all is lost... turns out to have been a dangerous meal. Through use of an obscure Wisconsin receivership law, and careful use of missteps by Hero in getting all the necessary information about all the stuff they wanted but didn't pay for yet, the little shark suddenly has the big shark by the tail. In the great American tradition, it was not a fight EBR wanted, but it is one they will not loose easily. | ||
| Jon |
I hope you're right Reep. | ||
| Henshao |
Well, Erik has always favored maneuverability over horsepower. Here's hoping he outmaneuvered Villain Motorcycles. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Hero owed EBR 8M now? What happened to 20M? Where is this information from? | ||
| Jon |
Henshao, Well said. That may be the best post at the end of all this. | ||
| Reepicheep |
$25M for 49% ownership of EBR by Hero, paid in an initial installment of $15M, and later in an additional $10M, is from here: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2013/07/article/hero -buys-49-2-stake-in-erik-buell-racing/ The outstanding debt owed by Hero for consulting services was from my memory based on speculation I have seen others post here and elsewhere from others. I don't know if it was accurate or not. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ I suppose it's possible Hero never coughed up the other $10M for their initial investment in EBR. All we know at this point according to what's been made public is that Hero went to the Receiver and claimed EBR owed them money while EBR made a counter-claim. The end result was that Hero agreed to pay $2.8M in exchange for stuff EBR was working on for them. Maybe more info will come out next week and maybe we'll have to remind Court to give us the inside story in a few years. | ||
| Buelliedan |
all this speculation you guys are doing is very entertaining but it is just that. I doubt we will ever know what truly happened. Even if they get bought out with the intentions of ramping up production again they are basically starting over as all the employees are gone to other jobs and their dealer network is so fractured that it would take years to get a real network back. | ||
| Court |
>>>> all the employees are gone to other jobs and their dealer network is so fractured that it would take years to get a real network That, in my personal opinion, is inaccurate. I've placed my bet on the guy who refuses to die . . . the RELENTLESS . . . NEVER GIVE UP guy. He's never let me down. Trying to keep Erik Buell down us like trying to hold a dozen balloons under water in a bath tub | ||
| Hughlysses |
^  Whatever happens, the next couple of weeks should be really interesting. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"The outstanding debt owed by Hero for consulting services was from my memory based on speculation I have seen others post here and elsewhere from others. I don't know if it was accurate or not." exactly rumor/speculation etc....nothing has come out yet. I see these people referring to Hero as "Villain"...and we truly do not know yet. The ones that do know (Court, Dave) aint talking. Stop spreading rumors | ||
| Henshao |
Someone's guilty, and I ain't betting on the dark horse this time...they're Villain Motorcycles until I see proof otherwise | ||
| Ourdee |
It's so hard to stop once you start. | ||
| Thumper74 |
I've got a 'thing'. Rumors suck. If it's not true, necessary, or kind, it shouldn't be said. | ||
| Jon |
Well, it's hard to twiddle thumbs on a BB, so let's not get Mother Superior on the speculations, thoughts, etc being expressed here. Brother... | ||
| Snacktoast |
I've got a 'thing'. Rumors suck. If it's not true, necessary, or kind, it shouldn't be said. Have you been introduced to the internet? You have chosen one hell of an uphill battle. It's the only environment I've found where everyone is right all the time, regardless of fact. Quite amazing, really. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
If I'm reading correctly, one week from now we will know a whole lot more about what is going to happen with EBR. Whoever purchases them better already have a plan in order to hit the ground running! No time to not come out of this receivership with no plans already in place! Time is money and that alone can make or break a company! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
">>>> all the employees are gone to other jobs and their dealer network is so fractured that it would take years to get a real network That, in my personal opinion, is inaccurate. " Court, you dont feel like the shutting down of the company has damaged the brand? | ||
| Tpoppa |
EBRs handling or rather not handling of the dealer network was unprofessional to say the least. They had every opportunity to communicate with their dealers before the receivership proceedings began. | ||
| Hughlysses |
As to Hero doing dirty dealings with EBR, 90% of what we "know" is conjecture, but at least two people on this board who know Erik personally and one of whom worked for EBR until the time of the closure have stated (paraphrasing here) that there is no doubt Hero tried to screw EBR. I have no reason to doubt their statements. Regarding "all the employees have moved on to other jobs", I just checked the "LinkedIn.com" listing for EBR. 25 people still list EBR as their current employer. Most of these people appear to be in key design, supply and management positions. If EBR workers portrayed in the film "the Ragged Edge" are typical, it seems there are very few other production jobs in the area for them to move on to. I'm guessing if EBR were to re-open on Monday, August 10, you could have 25 senior guys show up that day to kick things off (and I bet they've been working behind the scenes to figure out what they'll do if EBR is reopened) and you could have ~50 production workers re-hired by the end of the week. I'd think they could be cranking out more 1190's in a day or two. The big hole for the future would be the mid-level designers and engineers; they're the guys that have the talent but couldn't afford to wait around to see what happens and those would be the hard positions to fill quickly. I imagine most if not all these guys have moved on to other jobs. These are the guys that are needed to finish up the designs for the less-expensive models that Erik says were in the pipeline prior to the closure. Of course the other big hole is the dealer network. Depending on who buys EBR, there might already be a dealer network in place. If the new buyer doesn't already have a dealer network, he's got to figure out how to make amends with the existing one and bring more dealers on board. That may be the hardest part of this whole puzzle to fit together. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Im not saying that Hero didnt try to get one over on anyone...but again, we dont know ANYTHING All these people blabbering on about "villain motors" but we really dont know anything except two people and their cryptic messages here. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If I wanted to spread a rumor, I would be poorly served ending it with:
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| 46champ |
Sometimes I wonder why Honda wanted to be rid of Hero and accrue the additional cost of resetting up business in India. | ||
| Crusty |
I've met Erik, but I don't know him. However, I do know how he treats his customers. I saw him tell a shop owner to pull the rear wheel from his personal bike to replace the rear wheel of a Homecoming attendee whose wheel bearing had failed. And I know how I was treated when I had problems with my bikes.I believe he has a level of integrity that few people could ever reach. Erik, and the people he surrounds himself with all exude qualities that have earned my loyalty. Those "two people and their cryptic messages " have both impressed me in personal meetings. I admit that one of them is usually extremely enthusiastic and likes to put a positive spin on everything, but the other is calmer and more cerebral in his statements. I consider both to be very honest, and I pay attention to what they say. I'm just waiting to see how it all shakes out. | ||
| Reepicheep |
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/ news/two-wheelers/scooters-mopeds/hero-cycles-call s-off-deal-with-german-company-mifa/articleshow/44 645725.cms http://www.indiainfoline.com/article/news-sector-a utomobiles-ancillaries/mifa-accuses-hero-cycles-of -industrial-espionage-114100900023_1.html This is a thread on an Internet enthusiasts board about EBR racing going into receivership, not a scholarly article destined for a textbook, or a legal deposition. Of course it is going to be speculative. | ||
| Glitch |
without speculation badweb sure would be quiet | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"I've met Erik, but I don't know him. However, I do know how he treats his customers. I saw him tell a shop owner to pull the rear wheel from his personal bike to replace the rear wheel of a Homecoming attendee whose wheel bearing had failed. And I know how I was treated when I had problems with my bikes.I believe he has a level of integrity that few people could ever reach. Erik, and the people he surrounds himself with all exude qualities that have earned my loyalty. Those "two people and their cryptic messages " have both impressed me in personal meetings. I admit that one of them is usually extremely enthusiastic and likes to put a positive spin on everything, but the other is calmer and more cerebral in his statements. I consider both to be very honest, and I pay attention to what they say. I'm just waiting to see how it all shakes out." agreed fully with all of this. That said, we still dont know what went down and led to the receivership. Glitch - I'd rather have a more quiet BadWeb with truth and facts than people spouting off like a crazy lib "This is a thread on an Internet enthusiasts board about EBR racing going into receivership, not a scholarly article destined for a textbook, or a legal deposition. Of course it is going to be speculative." EBR Racing went into receivership too? It doesnt have to be a scholarly journal, but wouldnt you prefer facts instead of people spreading rumors based off of NOTHING? The reason I like this place over the other Buell boards is the amount of knowledge here...why cheapen it by talking out your butt about things you down know? |
