| Author | Message | ||
     Tankhead |
Morality and evolution. Now that my friend is the greatest question on this thread. I will ponder over sleep. Great question..... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You speak in many riddles, Kemosahbee. | ||
| Mackja |
How can one not see the difference between the two crimes, even our legal system differentiates between the severity of crimes. No one can be condemned to purgatory, purgatory is not a place, it is a process of purification, if you go through purgatory you will be in heaven eventually, how long is not known. This in no way limits Christ sacrifice, quite the contrary. I know the bible is both literal, and allegorical, I do not put myself in a position to determine which is which, I rely on the Church to do that. Just as I believe that there is only one truth, I believe there is only one interpreter of that truth. I can glean much from scripture myself, but there is no way I can understand the language structure, or the inferences of 1st century Jewish culture without a teacher. I believe in a objective moral truth, that is revealed to us by scripture, natural law and reason. I am done getting tired of this, good night (Message edited by mackja on May 20, 2015) | ||
| Baketheghey |
Their Jesus master is the laeder of the masses. Does not that make him the Lord Almighty of the Heaven Zone? Try an argue your blasphemous zealoutry their, it will not change the rule laid forth by GawdAmightly onto the JESUSREALM!!! Their, their poor lamb of the craetor - thou knowest not how the MAestor has plannedth forrrthcommming. RAIZED FROM THE TOMB I SHALL WALKEST AMONGST THE MORTALS IN ZOMBIE FORMAST!! TL;DR - you dumbasses are idiots. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The legal system is designed by man to contain damage, God wants to make a man whole. So the rules are different (though they sometimes rhyme). | ||
| Tankhead |
MACKJA said this: No one can be condemned to purgatory, purgatory is not a place, it is a process of purification, if you go through purgatory you will be in heaven eventually, how long is not known. ________________________________________________ So, let me get this straight. You can not and will not believe in purgatory is a place but you believe heaven is a place? Who told you that? What about the people who believe it is real? Are they wrong? How about the people who believe in the rapture? Are they wrong? How about the people who believe in Allah? Are they wrong? How about the people who believe in Pagan Gods, are they wrong? How about the people in the jungles of the amazon praying to their God/s are they wrong? Silly. Illogical. Nonsensical. All of it. Explanations of the unknown throughout history unfortunately bastardized throughout the years with many versions of bibles, many interpretations, many sects, fundamentalism, etc... Since I posted here the first time, my main question was how do you REALLY know any of it is truth without faith? You can't! So no one should speak about it as if they know more than someone else. To do so is pretentious. In the true meaning of the word. | ||
| Mackja |
Are you really this dumb or do you work at it! No one here has said they know more than anyone else, it is a discussion of how we do or do not understand it. Weather someone is Jew, Muslim or Christian is a personal decision. If anyone acts as if as though they are of a supreme intellect it is you!! I don't agree with the rapture and if you know anything about it you would find out that it only popped up about 150 years ago, by John Nelson Darby, not part of traditional Christian belief. It is incompatible with the understanding of Gods love for man. If someone wants to believe that fine, I have no problem, I will discuss my views without judgment, something you are incapable of doing. There are and have been many brilliant minds who believe in the faith, hundreds of some of the greatest physicist have been priest. Read Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, and others to get a proper understanding instead of taking pock shot at people over things you do not understand. You would be surprised to find that the Church developed the scientific method of observation, gave us the foundation of law, university system, economics, and hospitals. The Church has been at the forefront of the study of the natural sciences, western music, art, architecture. Oh but all that is just nonsense. Your arrogance knows no bounds. | ||
| Tankhead |
Ok, Im done. I thought we were having a conversation. I was asking a question. You are taking offense to words like silly, illogical, and of "no sense" instead of the literal meanings. Sorry about that. Mean't no harm. I never said that there was not brilliant minds who believe in faith etc. I do not pretend to know anything about the rapture etc .... it was a point, my point. You missed the point. I will stop posting on this thread now. We could go around in circles forever I guess. But thanks for the insult it was very Christian of you. Thanks. Take care. (Message edited by tankhead on May 21, 2015) | ||
| Aesquire |
Calling other's silly beliefs silly isn't insulting? Step back take a breath and try looking for common ground. Giant invisible telepathic immaterial thingies sounds silly if you put it that way. Millions believe in them if phrased differently. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I got where you were coming from, Tank. I don't have anything but faith to back up my "certainty". I'm an observer of human behavior and human nature. What I observe is that human nature mirrors Biblical description of human nature. I also deduce, from the same Biblical study, that Christianity is intended to operate in direct opposition to human nature. When others hate you, love them. If someone wrongs you, forgive them. If someone is in need, give to them. Generosity instead of greed. Sexual purity instead of lust. Humility instead of pride. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I do not believe mankind can create any belief system absent of human nature. The veneer of the separation of human society and animal society is far thinner than we'd like to believe. New Orleans was cast into third world savagery in less than two days. | ||
| Mackja |
Forgive me for getting a little bent out of shape. I did not find your responses to be a discussion, I found them to be condescending, combative, insulting, and belittling of other peoples beliefs. Every response seemed to be a wise crack attempt to make the other person look foolish or ignorant. This is one of the problems when we post, we don't see or hear the person on the other end, and we make assumptions. If I made the wrong assumption I apologize. I have good and close friends who are from many traditions, Jewish, Protestant, Atheist, Hindu, some are clergy and most are laity, we discuss many issues about our faith, and society we grow in understanding of each others beliefs with respect. I believe all traditions have truth with in them, and that has to be our common ground. The things I try to put forth are impossible to explain fully on a post. People spend a lot of time to educate themselves on these things. 2000 years of understanding is an impossible thing to cover here! St Thomas Aquinas said "Those who have no faith no explanation is possible, those who do no explanation is necessary". Again if I let my temper get the best of me I do apologize. Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum. | ||
| Rick_a |
As a simple man, I believe in the All-O-Gistics. After a lifetime of trying, I am very close to achieving All. Could happen any day, really. | ||
| Mackja |
Do you look at mans nature as good or bad? As I understand it, man because he is created in the image and likeness of God, his nature is good, but because of our disobedience of God our nature became stained, inclined to evil. If all of creation is of God, so if by observing nature arn't we observing what God's intent is? To me this is why natural law is so fundamental to moral principles. Natural law, and scripture give us our moral prerogatives. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Christianity doesn't remove human nature. Human nature continually seeks to reassert itself. Human failings are not an indictment of Christianity but rather evidence of the constancy of human nature. There is no perfection this side of death. I hear the charge of hypocrisy leveled at Christianity quite often. What is interesting is that the same metric isn't applied against other facets of human interactions. Scientists doctor environmental data, but science viewed as pure. Legislators advocate higher taxes for the benefit of the children, the poor, etc but cheat on their taxes or position their assets so that they are untaxable. Government is viewed as pure. Why the double standard? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I do not believe man's human nature is "good". "Good" is a subjective comparison against a standard. As such "good" becomes a relativistic measure. There are only two designations: 1) Perfect 2) Imperfect It doesn't matter whether a person is slightly imperfect or completely imperfect, the person is imperfect. In God's image is man's self-determination, ability to choose. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I'm just a soul whose intentions are good... Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood. | ||
| Mackja |
The double standard has puzzled me also, seems like everyone has forgotten the reason for Christ incarnation. Society politicizes its religion and worships its government. Relativism is most certainly at the heart of the issue. When moral behavior is left to the individual no standard can exist, how does a society build on such confusion. The further we move away from the Judeao-Christian ethic the worse things will get. We can see right now that instead of being a society of law, we are becoming a society of rules, rules can be oppressive, tyrannical. I have always loved this quote from G.K. Chesterton, "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and not tried". Should not man seek to be better to be greater than self, is this not the understanding of philosophy to seek a greater knowledge. We have turned inward, become selfish, and narcissistic. We blame everything but ourselves, amazing. | ||
| Mackja |
Yes good is a subjective term, but if we look at God as good, and all things that come from him as good, then does not good have a standard for the Christian. In the beginning man was created perfect, then we became imperfect. As a Christian we are called to perfection, to work against those inclinations caused by the stain of sin. Christ came to restore man to perfection, He instructs us to be perfect as He is perfect. Of course we fall short every day, but we don't give up! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
By that logic Satan, as a creation of God, is good. "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good." This statement is not meant as a moral assessment. Christians are not called to perfection. Christians are called to follow an ideal. No effort of man can achieve that which required Jesus' sacrifice to obtain. | ||
| Aesquire |
In Islam it is understood man is imperfect. Decorative tile work is done as good as possible, with one deliberate flaw to acknowledge man's imperfections. Other aspects of that faith are good as well. The misogyny and slavery parts suck major wind, though. Many religions claim to be the only path. Fail to rub blue mud on your belly when called for and you go to a bad place. Sometimes failure to obey such rules will have others rush you there immediately. I sometimes wonder about the Catholic Friday Burger section of hell. It doesn't matter that they changed the rule. If you broke it intentionally you sinned. I don't care if you firmly believe you follow the Only path. As long as it does not call you to hurt others and You let others walk away when you preach, then we shouldn't conflict much in this fallen world. I do try not to be too rude when others believe silly stuff. They undoubtedly think my beliefs silly too. Fair enough. It's my personal choice not to proselytize. Some faiths call on the flock to Witness. It doesn't offend me if you do. Don't get worked up if I ignore you. | ||
| Mackja |
This will be a little long sorry, but I don't know how to shrink it down. Not saying anyone has to agree, but this is how I believe and understand our call to perfection. CHESAPEAKE, VA. (Catholic Online) - As we continue our Lenten observance, the Gospel passage at today's Mass shakes us to the bones. It should. It is a call to complete transformation, beginning right now - and right where we are. It is a call to become saints in the stuff of the real world. It is right there where our transformation takes place. It becomes the very real material which is used to recreate us more fully into the Image revealed perfectly in the Sacred Humanity of Jesus. In its dogmatic constitution on the Church,Lumen Gentium, the Second Vatican Council affirmed the teaching of Jesus Christ, the clear teaching and witness of the early Church and the consistent teaching of Church Councils throughout the ages - holiness of life is not an option, for any member of the Church. We are all called to Christian perfection, "all the faithful, whatever their condition or state, are called by the Lord, each in his own way, to that perfect holiness whereby the Father Himself is perfect" (Lumen Gentium, Light to the Nations, 11). The Catechism of the Catholic Church reminds us "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity. All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Carolina Corner Carvers #2013) Christians are saved from sin, death and separation from God, through Jesus Christ. We are Called for holy living. We are to live differently - beginning right now- because we live our lives now in Jesus Christ. We are to love differently, because we are capacitated by grace to love in Jesus Christ, and with His Love. And all of this is made possible, as we cooperate with grace. The character of Christ is being formed in us as we cooperate with grace. As I age the words from today's Gospel become ever more sobering, "Jesus said to his disciples: "You have heard that it was said, you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect." ( Matthew 5: 43-48) How can we be perfect? This admonition from Jesus is repeated in other Gospel accounts and developed in the New Testament Epistles. Our question should not be "is it possible?". Rather, it should be "HOW is it possible?" How do we respond? Perhaps our problem with both understanding and responding is that we confuse the meaning of the word, "perfect". Filtering this word through our linguistic limitations, we may come up with a false translation and, as a result, not even attempt to respond to the admonition. However, Jesus has saved us from sin and death - and saved us for a new way of living. We can tend to focus on what we are saved from and forget what we are saved for. We do not yet comprehend who we are to become in Him. In Greek, the word often translated perfect is telios. It refers to something being completed, brought to its full purpose, potential and intended end and vocation. For example, in the world of objects, a hammer is telios or perfect when it is hammering a nail. In the world of subjects, things are telios or perfect when they are fulfilling their nature. In our Western minds, we can limit this word "perfect" and thereby fail to grasp its promise and potential. We think of it mathematically rather than relationally.We fail to understand it is a work in process. The God who is Love fashioned us in His Image. We are made to love as He loves. In Jesus Christ, we are now also being capacitated - to use a term frequently used by the early father and Bishop Ireneaus of Lyons - made capable - by the grace of His Redemption - of actually loving with God's love. "God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him" (1 Jn 4:16). Notice that the concept of being "perfected' is also applied to Jesus by the author of the New Testament Letter to the Hebrews in chapter 5 verses 8-9: "Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him." Jesus was made perfect through what He suffered? Yet, Jesus was without sin. How then was He perfected? He came into the world to redeem, to transform us by a life, and a death, and a Resurrection of perfect love. He fulfilled His purpose when He presided over the new creation from the Altar of that Cross and robbed death of its victory by bursting forth from a tomb which could not contain Love. We Live in Him We live in Him now - as we live our lives in the heart of the Church for the sake of the world. The Church is not so much a Some-Thing as a Some-One. We are being made perfect, holy, as we cooperate with His continual invitations to conversion by living our lives in the Communion of His Body on earth. We are being capacitated to love as He loved. By doing so we prove ourselves to be Sons and daughters of His Father, who by the power of the Holy Spirit, has become Our Father. When we follow Jesus a dynamic process happens within us, an ever deepening conversion and transformation, a process which is called perfection. We "participate in the Divine Nature" the Apostle Peter tells us. (2 Peter 1:4). We are perfected in charity, by grace and through faith. Every Christian, no matter what our state in life or particular vocation, is called to this holiness. God's Divine Life, and its dynamic work within us, is meant change us into the new men and women that Jesus Christ has capacitated us to become. We walk this way of holiness by living in His Body, the Church, of which we are members. The Church is the seed of the kingdom, making the kingdom present in a world waiting to be born. Only when the King returns will the Kingdom be fully established. Then, the entire creation be reconstituted by love, made perfect, and handed back to the Father as a gift of love. However, the Church is a sign, a sacrament of that Kingdom. We are seeds of that kingdom, scattered into the world as into a furrow. We are called to become saints and refashioned through cooperation with grace. Called to become Saints, right where we are The Saints we honor as Catholic Christians are given to us as examples to emulate as well as intercessors to assist us in responding to our vocation. They are companions on the journey; men and women like us who responded to God's invitation to become like Jesus. They pray for us because we are joined with them in the eternal communion of love. They put legs on the Gospel, showing us what holiness looks like. However, if we stop there, we miss the mark. Missing the mark is the transaletion of the Hebrew word often translated "sin" in the Old Testament. We are called to become saints, to be perfected in charity, to grow in holiness. Not only are we called to that, it is now made possible through Jesus Christ. In the Gospel text which will be read at tomorrow's Liturgy for the Secon Sunday of Lent, Cycle C, we will hear proclaimed the account of the Transfiguration of Jesus from the account offered by St Luke. (Luke 9: 28-26) What we need to remember is that Jesus is revealing who we are called will become as we continue on the road to redemption and follow the way of perfection which will only be complete (perfect) when we too are raised from the dead. The Fathers of the Second Vatican Council point to this clear scriptural teaching in their often quoted 22d paragraph found in another of their profound documents On the Church in the Modern world (Guadum et Spes, Joy and Hope, #22) with these words. "The truth is that only in the mystery of the incarnate Word does the mystery of man take on light. For Adam, the first man, was a figure of Him Who was to come, namely Christ the Lord. Christ, the final Adam, by the revelation of the mystery of the Father and His love, fully reveals man to man himself and makes his supreme calling clear." I close with words from St Paul which help to open the meaning of our vocation in Jesus Christ and the call we each have to progress, to be perfected, in Him. They are expounded upon with great beauty and insight in the paragraph from Gaudium et Spes which I quoted above. I urge my readers to go to the source and read it. Here are the words of the Apostle addresses not only to the Colossians, but to you and to me: "He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." "He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. "And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. (Colossians 1:15-23) --- | ||
| Mackja |
Satan was created as a perfect and good being, he by is own free will became evil. Yeah on the surface the no meat Friday thing can look kinda crazy, not going to get into all of the reasons, but suffice to say it is a denial of self, is goes along with fasting. Many people is todays society probable wont understand, society is so self absorbed, we live an excessive lifestyle. | ||
| Aesquire |
Tankhead might prefer Athena. Goddess of Wisdom and the Hunt. There are other faiths than the ones based on the middle eastern prophets. My comment on Friday Burgers is the irony that once a sin now not....... yet sinners still, because they willingly broke a Church Rule. Not a Biblical one. Accept the rule and breaking it is a sin. Don't accept a rule and you may still be punished for breaking it....but it's not sinful??? ( an example might be illegal use of banned solvent cleaning supplies. If convicted you would be a criminal. ...but not a sinner. ) Or to keep it religious, eating a Bacon sandwich if in a sect that forbids pork. (Message edited by aesquire on May 22, 2015) | ||
| Mackja |
breaking a Church practice is not a sin, if I eat meat on Friday during lent, that is not a sin, if I do not fast on certain days it is not a sin. Practices which are done as spiritual exercises are part of living the faith of the Church, if you are part of that community it is expected that you participate in those practices. I think a good way to look at what is sin and what is not, is if any action, physical, mental, or verbal that violates the human person (ourselves or anyone else), and those things that separate us or damage our relationship with God have to be considered sinful. I have a hard time understanding dietary laws, how does eating a pork sandwich harm anyone or separate me from God. I will respect those who practice those laws. My boss is Jewish and had a Honey Baked Ham for Christmas, and made sure we all knew about it! | ||
| Aesquire |
Originally they were health laws. Pork had parasites you Don't have in 21st century America. Shellfish? Why do you think it's named the Red Sea? Either food had a good chance to kill you. Linen wool blends are pretty obvious. Fraud laws. Now I think "don't murder" is still a good rule for society, but some of the old laws in the Bible are obsolete. Maybe "don't text and drive" will be in a later edition. ..... and in the future when no one has texted in many generations, They will mock it like the no lobster rule today. | ||
| Hootowl |
New testament says I can eat anything I want. It isn't what you put into your mouth that makes you evil, it's what comes out. Jesus destroyed the temple. I don't put much stock in the old testament and its funky rules. As a Christian, I don't have to. | ||
| Aesquire |
That is one interpretation. Not a Biblical scholar so I don't recall that edict from Jesus. Not saying it isn't there. There might be one or two of the Laws Moses brought down from the mountain you might consider worth following? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Satan was created as a perfect and good being, he by is own free will became evil. As did man. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Jesus destroyed the temple. I don't put much stock in the old testament and its funky rules. As a Christian, I don't have to. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Law of the Prophets = Old Testament In essence, "I have come to live out the Law of the Prophets, the law with skin on." There are 353 Old Testament Prophecies about Jesus which were fulfilled during his life time. These prophecies were made between 6000 and 400 years before Jesus' birth. The New Testament is hollowed out without the back story of the Old Testament. |
