| Author | Message | ||
     Alfau |
What is your point? | ||
| Alfau |
No shame ? | ||
| Mackja |
Do we really have to go here. Reason, logic and observation clearly show us what marriage is. No matter what legal ruling, their is no such thing as same sex marriage. Marriage has always been seen as the mechanism to build up the family to build up the state. Men and women have certain identifiable characteristics that determine male and female. The sexual organs are that identifiable characteristic, what are they for? They are for reproduction, in order to build up the family and the state a union between man and woman must happen or the family nor the state can exist. Marriage is two fold, one is the fullness of conjugal love, and second is the capacity to bring forth life. It is necessary to understand what something is for to determine what it is. while same sex unions can express love, they do not have the capacity to bring forth life, marriage must have both or it is not a true marriage. In most cultures to this day a marriage is not recognized if it is not consummated. The sexual act between people of the same sex it is a violation of natural law, and has to be considered disordered. This is not being hateful, it is just reality. I know I will probably get banished for this post, be called a bigot, or intolerant, but truth is truth, we can say something is not what it is but that does not change the reality of what it truly is. | ||
| Jayvee |
Bigot! Intolerant! (Just wanted to get that out of the way...) Right on though...so... Truth! | ||
| Aesquire |
Which team? I think Betty & Veronica sum it up. By religious law I can have four wives and a number of concubines. Too many for me. But that's my choice. Also not my religion. ......... just shows not all religion is bad. Or good. I sometimes wear linen/wool blends. That law is to prevent fraud I think. Anyone know the history on that? | ||
| Pwnzor |
It costs me $110 when my wife gets her nails done. How could I possibly afford more than one wife? | ||
| Patches |
The King James Version of the Holy Bible is the only True Spoken Word of God Translated into English. | ||
| Aesquire |
How could I possibly afford more than one wife? No kidding. That's why I keep such desires in the realm of mythology. Like Ginger & Mary Ann. That means I can't be jealous of Thor & Tony Stark, or Spike & Angel. Still, multiple wives has a long historical, and current day reality. On the rise. | ||
| Aesquire |
Just out of curiosity, Who said the KJV is the Only True Word? King James? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Yeah, I'm calling that as well. KJV is inaccurate in two ways: First, the KJV lacked the depth of historical research allowed to modern researchers as well as access to the full range of source documents available (Dead Sea Scrolls). Second, the word was translated in 17th century English much of which is no longer in use. The meanings of current words change. The biblical writings were a fixed narrative at a fixed point in time. What you translate to is a moving point in time. 400 years from now the NIV will seem as antiquated as the KJV sounds. | ||
| Aesquire |
Verily! The richness of discourse past is a fading thing. The new new new bible will be in Twitter speak. Lol. And much will be lost in that translation. | ||
| Mackja |
Yup KJV is really a bad translation, matter of fact, any English translation is not very good. Greek and Latin have words that mean phrases, and words that have different depths to their meaning. The Greek work for love is one example, Agape, the love God has for man and man for God, Eros, erotic love, Philia love expressed between family, friends and community, Storge, affection to children and parents. In English we only have one word, that limits our understanding greatly. English is the worst language to translate the Bible into, misunderstandings abound because of it. This is the main reason the Church was not crazy about translating scripture away from Greek or Latin. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
While in Maui, we visited a Costco where they were selling Hawaiian English bibles. The Good News Bible for non-haole. | ||
| Patches |
Ronald Reagan | ||
| Slaughter |
Ohhh... I thought you said religious TENNIS! (gotta get my hearing checked)  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Patches, the Good News Bible was a modern translation of the KJV. It did NOT go back to the source documents and translate from the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. More modern translations did. The Good News Bible referenced by Reagan was a paraphrased version. My preference is NIV. The New International Version of the Bible, is a completely new translation of ancient Greek and Hebrew texts sponsored by the New York International Bible Society. It was published in 1978. Its clear, direct modern English makes it easy to read and understand. | ||
| Mackja |
My preference is the Ignatius Bible or Jerusalem bible. The official Catholic bible for the north america is the NAB which was a collaborative effort by both Catholic and non Catholic scholars, don't really like the language as much as the Jerusalem. All three have the official Imprimatur, making them approved translations | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/18/saudi -arabia-advertises-eight-new-executioners-beheadin gs-soar Job openings! City, are you reading this? | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418476/why-l eft-will-never-talk-about-its-real-agenda-jonah-go ldberg More seriously, this is a religion that in it's most virulent form, murders millions of it's own people. Not in war, not to put down a revolt, but the long running mass murder of millions upon millions of people to preserve the Holy State. It has a Jealous God who can tolerate no other. In less virulent form, it declares those who question it "deniers" Deliberately invoking holocaust deniers, aka neo-nazis, or insane theologists, like the rulers of Iran. It cloaks itself in the mantle of Science, as nice folk like Bill Nye ( who is, like me, not an actual scientist ) claims an authority he does not have to declare the Truth, and accuse those who may not Believe as Apostate, Heretics, Evil, Stupid, and to be Silenced. Now, it's certainly a point of view that God is a made up idea by stone age guys, and we should live our lives by reason, truth, and rational thought. The bad news is I see little evidence that is the goal of those who claim there are no Gods. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Now, it's certainly a point of view that God is a made up idea by stone age guys, and we should live our lives by reason, truth, and rational thought. The bad news is I see little evidence that is the goal of those who claim there are no Gods. I find myself somewhere in the middle of that. I agree entirely with the first part and do live by reason, truth, and rational thought. I don't claim there are no Gods, how could I know? It's my personal view that if there are Gods, how could I possibly comprehend them and how could I possibly interpret their thoughts? so I don't presume to do so. I have no problem at all with others having faith in one religion or another, in fact I envy them the comfort that such certitude brings them. I cannot however accept that somebody's, anybody's, religion is the one true way, given the number of religions & sects that make such a claim. Further to that, I can never accept anyone telling me what I must believe. | ||
| Aesquire |
I joke that I found no evidence for atheism. It's possible that there is a One True Way. It might involve some God now only known to a small tribe in the Congo, or be a religion no longer practiced anywhere on Earth, that will only be found a hundred years from now in ruins under the remaining Ice, when the third major city in Antarctica is excavated by Fusion torches to escape the "Make Room, Make Room" ( original title for "Soylent Green" ) Heat wave brought about by abandoning fossil fuels and going to a Solar/Hydrogen economy. ( the heretics who claimed that water vapor was a more powerful green house gas than CO2 were right, not that it matters now that all of them were executed in public by the Gorian Priesthood. ) Or it could be that as a dear friend that converted as an adult to Greek Orthodox, that Christianity is right, and the oldest forms are the least corrupted by man. I sure won't tell you what to believe. I'm happy with my faith, and hope you enjoy yours. It's my personal view that if there are Gods, how could I possibly comprehend them.... It strikes me the apex of arrogance that a human can comprehend a being that creates planets by act of will. Yet many sustain that peak much of their adult lives. Often we have to stop them. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I believe it is incorrect to state that a human can never understand the desires of God. I believe that God's character, God's will, God's desires are all available for view. I can know what God wants from us because those desires are explicitly stated. I can know what God's character is like for the same reason. We saw God's character and desires modeled in flesh and blood during the life of Jesus Christ. I believe that God is generally far less interested in whether we ordered the Huevos Rancheros or the oatmeal at IHOP than he is in how we interacted with the waitress. I believe that God is far less interested in the job we hold than the understanding we place in the proper role of money. I believe these things because we are hold how God views these things. If you believe there is a God but spend no time reviewing the 6,000 year old narrative of his interactions with man, I do believe that God would then be "unknowable". I don't believe one can spend any material time reading this narrative and not come away with a better understanding of God. | ||
| Mackja |
We do get a glimpse of who God is, after all scripture itself is God the Father revealing Himself to us through His Son! At the same time their is so much we don't know, but we do have the ability to know Him more deeply by having a regular conversation (prayer) and opening ourselves up to Holy Spirit. Living the Christian life, striving to be holy people with humility and love draws us into a stronger deeper relationship with our Lord and our human family. The more we love our brothers and sisters, the more we will be able to know and love Jesus, the more we know and love Jesus the more we will know and love the father. The beatitudes in action. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Therein lies my problem, God's will is clearly stated? By whom? Fallible humans with their own agenda. I'm very pleased for you that you can accept this premise, I however cannot & the more reading I do on the subject the less I like Religion. I may find myself in Heaven or Hell eventually, or perhaps I'm already there. In an infinite Universe anything is possible, indeed in an infinite universe anything that can happen will happen eventually. Maybe there's another Earth somewhere where we're on a religious forum discussing motorcycles. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Therein lies THE problem. Religion isn't God. Religion is the box man tries to put God into. I hate religion. Jesus did too. "Whitewashed tombs" he called it. On the outside it has all the signs of holiness and purity but inside is death and decay. I left a vibrant growing church. The people weren't bad or ill meaning. They did church. They knew the church answers. They knew the church morays. The problem is that this was enough for them. They were comfortable not pressing in not asking her questions, not really growing. For many, church was another marketing opportunity. Not all churches are bad. Not all are good either. The question is whether the church is pressing for the hard answers. Asking the hard questions. Those questions cannot be asked in a vacuum. Without the historical narrative without the engagement of others who are seeking insight. Iron sharpens iron. (Message edited by ft_bstrd on May 19, 2015) | ||
| Pwnzor |
Grumpy, To truly know God, one must look deep within one's self. In your life at some point, God will present Himself to you. You will have an opportunity to do His will, and you will know you are doing it. Sometimes it happens right before one dies. You won't believe me until it happens. It happened for me in February of 2007. It has affected every single thing I have done since that day. I once was lost, but now am found. | ||
| Mackja |
Depth of Christian understanding goes very deep. While many of the reformed communities have been driven to a simple plain Gospel, and their is nothing wrong with that, I hear many people who come to the ancient Church say they just ran out of food, and needed to be feed more deeply, in reality the hard questions have been asked and are still being asked. If your where to look at the writings of St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas. Their are many others, such as St Theresa of Avila, St. Benedict, St. Albert the Great. Their is a 2000 year history of asking these questions. Most who are not Catholic or Orthodox don't realize the depth of study of seeking. The Church can only teach what has been revealed to her, and this develops over time as mans understanding develops. We are like children, born anew as the children of God, our spirit must be feed and nourished so it can grow. As we grow we gain knowledge, wisdom, fortitude, piety, fear of the Lord. Each one of us takes a different path, we can grasp the faith quickly or it may take a life time, with all its struggles. The Church is there to help us polish our halos so to speak. The Church is a field hospital which dispenses God's healing grace. So yes the Church is full of good and bad people, saints and sinners, poor and rich. Much of what Grumpy is saying has to do with the problem of authority, this has been a major struggle for all the communities who broke away from the Catholic Church. For 1500 years their was one undivided Church, reasons for the divisions are equal on both sides, (not going there) but in the Catholic Church we know where the buck stops, we recognize the authority of our bishops and the Pope. Good bad or indifferent and with all the problems we also have, authority is not one of them, obedience is another story! lol (Message edited by mackja on May 19, 2015) | ||
| Aesquire |
Iron sharpens iron. I wish I could recall the source on this... Marine, "The hardest steel is forged in the hottest fire!" Gunny, "Bul%%%t! The hardest steel comes from a precise combination of time and temperature, in a Fu&^%$g Nitrogen atmosphere!" Only appropriate here as metaphor, perhaps, but I like it for that. Religion is the box man tries to put God into. I agree, but it can be a useful box. It's Man that messes it up. As always. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Proverbs 27:17 Sadly, the box is completely unnecessary. | ||
| Aesquire |
.....marriage must have both or it is not a true marriage. Interesting... I suggest you read this through, as the author touches on that subject. http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418515/equal -chance-love-why-we-should-recognize-same-sex-marr iage-jason-lee-steorts I do not agree with all the points the author makes, as I see the case for gay unions as a Conservative plus, not related to religious issues. I point out simply, that we place a CIVIL function to reduce promiscuity, disease, support stable relationships, and most important, to ensure the support of any POSSIBLE child involved in the relationship. This is current state of law for "straight" couples, in European & American societies. It also exists in current & traditional polygyny. Stable relationships, and support for the children. I understand some religions, many, in fact, do not approve of gay sex, some, such as Islam, specify death for gays, while the killers may go home and screw a boy without believing they are sinning... This insanity is NOT restricted to Islam. I certainly do not want to force any church, pastor, preacher, etc. to marry gays. I do want a CIVIL union framework to give the appropriate and equal legal protections to partners, no matter the sex or combination. I see no reason for a man and a women not to use the same paperwork. Then, the legal crap taken care of, it's up the the folk who want to get married in a religious sense, and the church/pastor/etc. if they get to walk down the aisle with music and the blessing of a church. None of my business, unless it's my church, and I can always speak up, or leave in protest. Now, you can argue with quite some merit that we should make getting married harder, to try and make our society more stable, reduce divorce, and in general try and correct the mistakes of the Sexual revolution. Good luck with that. It'a genie I don't really think can be put back in the bottle. I do support an effort to teach people to be more responsible, in the hopes that it improves the issues of the high divorce rate and broken homes. I offer a pessimistic view on the subject of guy/girl marriage from an internet blogger, that I don't really agree with, but have a hard time arguing the facts.... http://www.fredoneverything.net/DontMarry.shtml ( removed political comment ) (Message edited by aesquire on May 19, 2015) |
