| Author | Message | ||
     Pwnzor |
Spidey continually exhibits the inability to read or comprehend what's being said. No matter, I forgive him. He clicks into a thread titled "religions tenets" and he starts throwing rocks in all directions. It's really comical, since he's a godless heathen with an empty life who wants to cast aspersions with no grounds to do so. So, tell you what JERK... kick rocks until your toes bleed, then go cry about it to somebody else. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I was addressing what I thought to be the original claim, which is a common one, and which says that since religion is sometimes bad, that God must not be real. That is an illogical conclusion. God can be absolutely real, and religion could be bad. One does not logically preclude the other. It is not logical to say it is proof God exists either. I wasn't trying to say it was. I was just pointing out that as a negative proof, the original claim fails on just about every level. It was a statement of faith and opinion. | ||
| Spiderman |
LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Tankhead |
If there is a god, do you honestly think you would rewarded for remaining in an unhealthy situation? What kind of god would prefer that? I would prefer a god that doesn't allow people on earth to act like they know what their God does, says, thinks, desires, wants, doesn't want, likes, dislikes and put an end to anyone who is so damn pretentious to believe they do.....that is the type of god I want..... ignorance is the new brilliance i guess | ||
| Tankhead |
He clicks into a thread titled "religions tenets" and he starts throwing rocks in all directions. It's really comical, since he's a godless heathen with an empty life who wants to cast aspersions with no grounds to do so. So, tell you what JERK... kick rocks until your toes bleed, then go cry about it to somebody else. Very "non confirmed episcopalian" of you.. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I guess if calling somebody a jerk makes me a sinner, then I'm a sinner. Oh, wait... I was born into sin, and the blood of the lamb has washed me of them. So every day when I acknowledge this and reaffirm my acceptance of Christ as the savior, then all is forgiven. Yep. | ||
| Tankhead |
pre·ten·tious adjective: pretentious attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed. | ||
| Reepicheep |
You are muddling two topics badly. 1) Should people be allowed to believe something specific about who and what they think God is? 2) Should they be allowed to try and force others to follow that belief? I submit that Christians, in general, are only about as guilty as the average NPR supporter. So it seems your beef is with, well, people. And while I don't disagree with you, I apparently have an easier time loving people I don't agree with then you do, but maybe something is just getting lost in translation. | ||
| Tpoppa |
"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." - Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956) | ||
| Aesquire |
Religion is a construction of man. Argue about the gods all you want. Hit by lightning? Then you know. I do have a clue what the deity or deities want in my faith. Protect the weak, loyalty, bravery in the face of fear. I won't speak to other faiths, except to say Obedient Islam is a slave owning intolerant faith constructed by a Man for his own purpose. What inspired him is open to debate. It could be that if we had better drugs thousands of years ago there might have been fewer prophets. Considering most rampage suicides lately are partly because of "sit down and shut up" drugs perhaps those prophets would have been inspired but would have been too doped up to tell anyone.... or cut down on their rampage if they stopped taking the drugs. When they tell you "The Science Is Settled" remember psych meds and how perfect they are.... and fear the day they do perfect Soma and "Believe Your Master" meds. | ||
| Aesquire |
Then again, I could be too cynical. Baptized Roman Catholic, confirmed Episcopal, dabbled in Easter faiths, rejected Atheism ( no evidence for it  ) and went to a modern version of an older faith. I don't take the soap opera of the Gods too seriously. The principles very seriously. No matter if it's horny Zeus or angry Jehovah the religious histories are a bit appalling. The lessons are timeless. | ||
| Aesquire |
I will note that one man one woman marriage is a modern thing.... and may not even be a majority view in the near future. I prefer not to think of Adam & Steve. Eve & Lillith, otoh......... | ||
| Pwnzor |
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| Pwnzor |
Religion is a construction of man. Correct. Just as our existence is a construction of God. | ||
| Tankhead |
Why do you suppose or assume that I have a problem with all people? And please try not to assume that I am muddling anything. I typed exactly what I meant. It is strange to me that you are trying maybe to win an argument when there is none to win with me.no big. Just my observation | ||
| Tankhead |
Phone fart sorry (Message edited by tankhead on May 07, 2015) (Message edited by tankhead on May 07, 2015) | ||
| Aesquire |
Let's hear it for freedom of religion! I don't care if you worship Zeus. I might prefer Athena or Aphrodite, but you enjoy your faith and try and live by your principles. I won't put up with intolerance. .... Tpoppa, good quote and principle. | ||
| Reindog |
I said: Always nice to see Spidey drop by to say howdy. You seem to be a little touchy but it really is good to hear from you. Kick your shoes off and stay a while. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Let's suspend disbelief for a moment and allow me to float a hypothesis regarding God: I have attended church since 9 months before my birth. I have attended primarily Southern Baptist churches. My father is an ordained pastor. My mother worked for 15 years in the Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission. I made a profession of faith at 9 years old and have spent the remainder of my life "working out my salvation". I graduated from a Southern Baptist University. I have given more than a little thought to God, man and the relationship between the two. I had a roommate named Chad. He was a theology student who became a pastor. Unlike most of the other theology students who felt that the business students like me were direct instruments of the devil, Chad was significantly deeper in his thought patterns. He was less interested in the what and more interested in the why. One night in one of our frequent discussions regarding matters of faith, Chad asked a question that has stuck in my brain ever since: Can an omniscient and omnipotent God ever be surprised? The easy answer is no, absolutely not. If God can be surprised, he can't really be God. The hard answer is what does this mean? If God can't be surprised, then the fall of man couldn't have been a surprise. If the fall of man wasn't a surprise, then God created man with the foreknowledge of man's fall (man's knowledge of, and ability to choose evil and good). God created the instrument of man's fall in the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Without the tree, no forbidden fruit, no fall. God also created the instrument of man's temptation in Satan. (The Garden of Eden story is most likely figurative not literal.) Before the creation of man, God created Satan with the full foreknowledge that Satan would attempt to usurp God's role as ultimate authority, to place himself in the position of God. So if God not only created man with the foreknowledge of man's fall but created the instruments necessary to facilitate that fall, why? Why would God do that? The central core aspect of man, that which makes him most like God, is his free will. It is man's ability to express free will that is paramount. If I force someone to tell me "I love you" but I know that they don't and they know that they don't, do the words have any meaning? If someone chooses to love another from their own free will, that is truly love. God could have created eternally loving beings without free will. They would have loved God endlessly for all eternity because they were programmed to do so. If the expression is a programmed response, is it really love? God created man who could either choose him or reject him of their own free will. Any attempt to prevent the exercise of free will is not of God. Forced conversions, not of God. Spanish Inquisition, not of God. If God created man with the foreknowledge that man would fall and God's desire was to have man in a restored relationship with God, a solution was required. A restoration. A restitution. Jesus was that solution, that restitution, but did God think Jesus up as a solution to a problem or was Jesus the solution before there was a problem. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 Word is an overly simplistic translation of the root logos in the greek. The understanding here is that Jesus existed before being born as a human being on earth. The understanding is that Jesus existed before the creation of the universe, the creation of man, the fall of man, the need for man's reconciliation with God. Jesus wasn't a stop gap measure. Jesus was always intended as Plan A. God created man with the understanding that a large portion of man would reject him, would reject placing God as central authority. Assuming that there is an afterlife, there will be God and those who recognized God as central authority separated from those who chose something else as the central authority in their lives. Self, Allah, Buddha, nature, science. Evil in the world is the result of individuals exercising free will, placing themselves in the position of authority. "I am the ultimate authority in my life. I choose to steal this item, to murder this person, to rape this person, to behead this person." God allows evil to exist because to not allow it would mean curtailment of man's free will. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Once you get off this rock and out into the universe things get really strange. Once you get down to the sub-atomic level things become even stranger. In some cases the laws of physics, as we know them, don't even apply. Time is four dimensional and it is not linear. The past, the present and the future exist simultaneously. Everything that has happened as already occurred. To put God into such a small box and humanize him as religions do is to discredit and minimize the sheer wonderment of existence itself. | ||
| Gobadgers |
Just coming late to this discussion and to your point Pwnzor, though I do not say you are wrong. I am not an apologist either. Just a person who has spent much time in Muslim countries. I say the same to them as I say in the following to you; the best of my understanding. And that is how I say it too, this is how I believe. This way I stay clear of real trouble. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men" Romans 14:17-18 In other words the Kingdom of God is not about religion, belonging to a church, confirmation, etc., but in each person’s relationship to God. God looks at the heart. (1 Samual 16 ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/ohwell.gif) ) To Christians and Muslims alike it is important to be in the “Kingdom of God” For Christians, to accept Christ they’re promised assurance of the Kingdom. For Muslims, they “hope” they will make the Kingdom if their good outways their bad, which includes saying the Shahadah, prayers 5 times a day, giving of alms, fasting during Ramadan and a Hajj to Mecca if able. Some say God and Allah are different. And in the person’s recognition of who God is I have no problem with this distinction as a Christian. God says you come unto him through Christ. That makes it hard for a Muslim to recognize God. But, I will leave one thought: Genesis 16:11&12 says, The angel of the LORD said to her (Hagar) further, "Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction. He (Ishmael)will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone's hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers." Arabs and Muslims descend from Ishmael, and God made a covenant with Hagar concerning Ishmael. He says Arabs will be “wild donkey of a man” and his “hand will be against everyone, and everyone’s hand will be against him.” That much enmity goes on between people and religions only points out and verifies truths in the Bible. An interesting observation, in the US, go out to eat, bring up the Kingdom of God and there is an eerie silence. In the Middle East with Muslims, bring up the Kingdom of God and you will talk all night. They are genuinely concerned about making it to the Kingdom of God. What do Muslims believe? You have the Qur’an and then you have many interpretations of the Qur’an—as important as the Qur’an--that take one all over the place. The Qur’an itself has different takes on non-Muslims, the interpretations even more dramatic imo. Just as Christianity has become and was at the time of the Crusades an expression that takes many forms: For some it is by birth, for others basic truths and for others a relationship with Christ. i.e. The Christian Knights were Christian basically by birth. The same applies to many Muslims and Allah and Mohammed. It was brought up a truth in Muslim writings that not all Muslims would hold true--killing Christians. And yet you have to understand the complexity of the Qur'an and others writings that even the Bible have to Islam... "He (Allah) has revealed to you the Book (Qur'an) with Truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Taurat (Torah, Old Testament) and the Injil (Gospels, New Testament) for the guidance of mankind, and the distinction between right and wrong. Those that deny Allah's (God's) revelations shall be sternly punished:.." Qur'an 3:3-4 Now on to killing Christians....Qur'an 5:82 says "And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers (True Muslims) are those who say, 'We are Christians.' This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant." So what we are talking about is True Muslims, just like we need to talk about True Christians. It is these people on the fringe that cause the problems, i.e. Crusaders, ISIS etc. It is the untrue to both faiths that are problematic. Not an excuse to kill people, but starting to show the complexity. The Qur'an says that Allah (God) distinguishes the followers of Isa al-Masih (Jesus) from the infidels. In fact Allah exalts the followers of Isa far above the infidel unbelievers (untrue Muslims). We see the Qur'an saying "Thus, Allah (God) said: O Isa (Jesus), I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection... (Qur'an 3:55) What is amazing though, is the truth that is presented in the Qur’an...What is the nature of Jesus and his redemptive offer? Those who talk this or that forget some central points: Again I point to "He (God) has revealed to you the Book with Truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it: for He has already revealed the Taurat (Torah, Old Testament) and Injil (Gospel, New Testament) for the guidance of mankind, and the distinction between right and wrong. Those that deny Allah's (God's) revelations shall be sternly punished:....(Qur'an 3:3-4) And then also, "Subsequent to them, We sent Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the previous scripture, the Taurat (Torah). We gave him the Injil (Gospel), containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Taurat (Torah), and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous." (Qur'an 5:46) And, "But Allah (God) raised him (Isa) up (in position) and closer to Himself; and Allah (God) is all-mighty and all-wise. There is not one among of the people of the Book who will not believe in it before his death; and He (Isa - Jesus) will be a witness over them on the Day of Resurrection." (Qur'an 4:158-159) And then, "When the angels said, 'Maryam (Mary), Allah (God) gives thee good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is al-Mashi (Messiah), Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary); high honored shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to (Allah) God. (Qur'an 3:45) Don't let this last point slip by unnoticed, 'near stationed to Allah (God) is as important as it gets in Islam! Also, interesting to note in the Qur’an the phrase, “Word from Him” Go to the Book of John and see how that starts out. “In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God” What is the bigger difference between Christians and Muslims? It has to deal with what is the nature of Jesus. Though the Qur’an teaches about Jesus, the interpretations and further writings wash much of this out. You would be hard pressed to find many Muslims that know the verses above from the Qur’an. What are God's revelations in the Injil (Gospel) that the Qur’an speaks about and points to as all being true? "For God (Allah) so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God (Allah) did not send his Son (Jesus) into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (John (Injil) 3: 16-17) I think this all speaks for itself. One thing that is common and not much liked or talked about is this..."Allah (God) accepts offerings only from the righteous. (Qur'an 5:27) "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God (Allah) comes through faith in Jesus Christ (Isa al-Masih) to all who believe." Romans 3:31 It is a hard road living by the law and impossible too. In some Muslim cultures missing one of the five times daily prayers is an extra 10,000 years in purgatory. And though they have the prophets and recognize Jesus (Isa) as the most important prophet, Islam continues to have the law. They missed an understanding of this righteousness from God apart from the law. And finally, some so-called christians of that day share the blame because many of the Christians that Muhammad encountered in his life and travels were way off base on their theology, and in turn, many would say rightly so, Muhammad rejected it. He did see a few true believers and these he refers to, but Islam’s response was to the christianity of people—living out in the desert with a mystical christian religion--who did not really know Christianity at all, much like our discussion started here. Muhammad rejected Christianity to make “religion” in his own view. Most people can care less about what I think, and that is ok. For it is not about what I think, the religion I create, but rather about what God thinks and says: The Kingdom of God. And as men shape religion to their own views and understanding, this continues to be a struggle and always will be. “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” (Ephesians 6:12) | ||
| Aesquire |
You can cherry pick the Koran, but an Obedient Muslim cannot. If The Prophet wrote, "be peaceful and accepting of other's differences" in March, and "kill them all, God will know His own" in April, the later sura prevails. If the chronological order is reversed, so is the injunction. You have to look up the chronological order. not hard to do, but not obvious to the ignorant. Otherwise it's a contradictory mess laid out in order of verse length, not time.... and time is the factor for which verse you obey. American Catholics are world famous for Cherry Picking their faith. "Cafeteria Catholics" is the phrase. Like this rule, don't like that one, obey the ones you like, ignore the ones you don't. Some who do this insist they are devout. Some are in Congress. Cherry picking religious texts has a very long history. Often used to "prove" or "disprove" the rightness of a faith, or to point out the contradictions in a multi-author work such as the Bible, written over centuries, and divided in parts. Many Christians insist they hold to the New Testament, and the Old one isn't mandatory. Hey, their choice. Most Muslims do so too, to a lesser extent. Most Muslims are not slaver rapist mass murderers, and hate ISIS, who are Very Obedient, and consider all the slackers "radical" and eventually to be murdered, or enslaved. There are other religions made by evil men even worse, like the sickness that has murdered hundreds of millions while insisting there is no God...... and like Islam, only a small minority take their religion to the extremes built into it. BUT, that minority in both religions is responsible for a huge amount of pain and suffering. Stating, accurately, that most ( fill in the blank's ) are not evil does not help when the minority murder and threaten enslavement to the rest of the planet. And are not kidding. At All. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
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| Hootowl |
Regarding my dim view of marriage, this sums it up pretty well. http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/05/01/why-men- wont-marry.html | ||
| Strokizator |
All very interesting but from what I've been told, Jesus loves me and Allah wants me dead. I suppose if I were interested enough (and I'm not) I'd find out why, when Europe was in the midst of the dark ages, the Arab world was the center of wisdom on medicine, astronomy and mathematics. Fast forward a thousand years and it's just the opposite. The Arab muslims are seen as a bunch of nomadic camel jockeys while the rest of the world accelerates the knowledge base geometrically. | ||
| Tpoppa |
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| Aesquire |
Jesus loves me and Allah wants me dead. Not so. The followers of Allah want you to willingly join them in the proper forms of worship. Because you were not lucky to have been born Muslim, you will be second class, but that is far better than if you choose not to convert, in which case you can pay a tax for being Christian, or be a slave, or be dead. Up to you. Allah doesn't hate you at all. What moron told you that? As a side note "Allah" is the judeo christian God. Named Allah by The Prophet because that was a local pagan..ish god meaning "all". It made sense to appeal to the local pagans. Just as Easter is during the Spring festival. Or Christmas was buried under Saturnalia. I suppose if I were interested enough (and I'm not) I'd find out why, when Europe was in the midst of the dark ages, the Arab world was the center of wisdom on medicine, astronomy and mathematics. Fast forward a thousand years and it's just the opposite. The Arab muslims are seen as a bunch of nomadic camel jockeys while the rest of the world accelerates the knowledge base geometrically. Europe was in a dark age, because, ( you're going to LOVE this ) of Climate Change. It got cold, the Barbarians took Rome, The Eastern Roman Empire held on for a long time, but then in the reign of Justinian, reconquered the Western Empire. The ravages of war and the starvation that followed, combined with trade from China, led to a horrific plague, and the end of centralized civilization. The Arabs who were busy trading with India, had a wonderful flowering of art and science, ( much of it imported from India, like "Arabic Numbers", but who in Spain would have a clue about that, so India never got the credit ) until the 14th century, when the Mullahs, upset about the Liberal ways of the Faithful dragged it all back to the 8th century, where it remains to this day. Imagine a U.S. where the fire and brimstone preachers in the 1930's were able to drag everyone back to 1600.... an imaginary "better time" when people were more connected with God. That's what happened in Africa, Europe, Eurasia, and the former Persian Empire. As to the "Western" world accelerating technology at a scary pace, that's directly related to the Renaissance, the Scientific Method, the Protestant Reformation, and perhaps just as important, Global Warming. Which led to good and plentiful crops and a population explosion. Ask a history question of a history buff... | ||
| Aesquire |
We do all agree that religious freedom is a good thing? I mean no matter how corrupt a massive organization like a Church becomes, or how crazy the ideas of some religions, it's a good thing not to be intolerant jerks, right? ( no insult intended to the good Pastafarians ) | ||
| Aesquire |
If you want to bash a "Religion", an entity of people, the Westboro "Bap' Church who's website is, no shit, god.hates.fagscom ( one word with the . in the right place ) is Surely worth the venom. I admit I have not been to that website. I looked it up on Google & bought their results. If it's a porn site let me know.  | ||
| Thumper74 |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7tbhK7WRs |
