| Author | Message | ||
     Midknyte |
>Were 1190's a product that people rejected or didn't know existed? This, times 10 (100? 1000?) | ||
| Hootowl |
"Is the reduced weight really an advantage on the street or track" The advantage is on the street, not the track. Streets are tore up and full of ripples, cracks, expansion joints and pot holes. This is where a light, road surface-following front wheel assembly shines, not on the ultra-smooth surface of a WSB track. | ||
| Buewulf |
"And no, he didn't know EBR existed until I told him." That point has been mentioned elsewhere, but I also know plenty of people - sportbike riders mind you - that have never heard of Aprilia or MV Augusta, either which have both been around a lot longer than EBR. Even with a relatively poor marketing effort, EBR got plenty of free industry press with the restart and the Hero investment. Their participation in World SuperBike Racing put them in front of their most likely target market (though I guess this wasn't exactly positive advertising for them.) So the EBR name was out there. I really do think the 1190s were rejected when weighed against their competition, the European marques in particular, all of which have staying power in addition to phenomenal bikes in this segment. He couldn't agree more and couldn't understand why those people would trash the braking system. I'll be honest here: I don't like the ZTL. Every bike I have owned that wasn't a dual sport has had a dual-disc setup, and all of them (except the "budget" components on my SV650) offered better feel, control and outright stopping power than the ZTL on my Uly. The ZTL looks cool as hell and works well enough, but that is all I can say about it. I'm sure the new generation of the ZTL on the 1190s works much better, but I'd be very surprised if they are better than the traditional brake sets they compete with. | ||
| Buewulf |
">Were 1190's a product that people rejected or didn't know existed? " Even if that were true, would your typical buyer pay that much money for an RX over an RSV4, Panigale, S1000RR, etc.? All of which offer the same performance envelope, are a generation ahead with respect their electronics, have established OEMs and dealerships, look sexier (I know, I know, eye of the beholder), and in many cases cost less? EBR's downfall in my mind wasn't marketing or oddities like fuel-frames or ZTLs, it was the segment of the market they went after and their competition in that segment. I think it is insane to try to enter that market. Some manufacturers make these bikes as a statement about their brand, not so much to make money. Look at the resources Yamaha has poured into the new R1, a bike they know doesn't have a chance of selling in large numbers or even high margins. The R1's main purpose is just to say "look how awesome Yamaha is." It's the FZ-09s, Monsters and R1200GSs and such that bring home the bacon. | ||
| Tpoppa |
The advantage is on the street, not the track. Streets are tore up and full of ripples, cracks, expansion joints and pot holes. This is where a light, road surface-following front wheel assembly shines, not on the ultra-smooth surface of a WSB track. Hootowl, I agree with this. I think the ZTL provides a slight handling advantage for aggressive corner carving on less than perfect roads, where max braking isn't on the menu. I also agree the ZTL is at a disadvantage in professional road racing where maxxxxxx braking is needed to shave tenths. This begs the questions: 1. What percentage of street sport bike riders are capable enough to notice this handling difference? 5%? 2. Who was EBR marketing this to? btw, I liked the ZTL for the most part, except for tire changes. But both motorcycles I own today have better brakes than my former ZTL equipped Buells. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Even if that were true, would your typical buyer pay that much money for an RX over an RSV4, Panigale, S1000RR, etc.? All of which offer the same performance envelope, are a generation ahead with respect their electronics, have established OEMs and dealerships, look sexier (I know, I know, eye of the beholder), and in many cases cost less? EBR's downfall in my mind wasn't marketing or oddities like fuel-frames or ZTLs, it was the segment of the market they went after and their competition in that segment. I think it is insane to try to enter that market. Some manufacturers make these bikes as a statement about their brand, not so much to make money. Look at the resources Yamaha has poured into the new R1, a bike they know doesn't have a chance of selling in large numbers or even high margins. The R1's main purpose is just to say "look how awesome Yamaha is." It's the FZ-09s, Monsters and R1200GSs and such that bring home the bacon. Spot on! Well thought out comments! | ||
| Davegess |
This is entertaining  | ||
| Hootowl |
I don't know how slight it is. Buells are widely considered to be the best handling bikes. A lot of that can be attributed to the frame, sure, but I'll bet the light front wheel plays a big part. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I don't get the maximum breaking argument. I had a Corolla make an illegal left in front of me from a blind hole in a line of cars. I wasn't going that fast (maybe 20?) but I had almost no warning. So a fat guy (me) on a Uly with full luggage full of crap (mine) went from "what a pretty day" to "Noooooo" in about 15 feet, and in that same 15 feet, I managed to do a perfectly executed stoppie so that the first part to hit her car was my lollipop mirror.  How can you have "more stopping power" when the current brakes can already flip the bike at any speed with just two fingers? | ||
| Budgolf |
I feel you Reepicheep. If the stopping power on my 1190 were any better...it would be like hitting a brick wall. | ||
| Tpoppa |
I don't get the maximum breaking argument. Agreed. You certainly don't. You can do a stoppie on pretty much every (non ABS equipped) sporty motorcycle on earth. That doesn't mean they're all equal. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I think the advantage of state-of-the-art dual disks over ZTL is in doing repeated maximum effort braking, like in racing. The ZTL seems to have more difficulty in handling the heat, although they seem to have made great strides since it was first put on Buells. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Just posted, a post-closure interview with Erik: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/erik-buell-racin g-ceases-operations-ebr-update-bankruptcy-industry -news?src=SOC&dom=fb | ||
| Buewulf |
"How can you have "more stopping power" when the current brakes can already flip the bike at any speed with just two fingers?" It actually doesn't take much braking force at all to make a bike endo. I can do it on a dirt bike which has a very weak front brake and much less grip in comparison. You don't see MotoGP bikes doing endos, and you know the carbon fiber brakes on those and the braking force being applied by the riders are substantially more powerful than what you experienced. Also, slowing from 20 mph is one thing. Get on the brakes hard at 80mph and compare that to a good dual disc set, and you'll see right away I'd wager. Or you work them hard in a prolonged fashion like a track or your favorite twisty road, and you will also see. There is a reason the Hero-EBR World Superbike team binned the ZTL in favor of dual-discs, wouldn't you think? Regardless of stopping power (for which the ZTL is more than adequate), it is the feel and control offered by the dual disc setups that I really miss. How did this thread evolve into a discussion about brakes? lol (Message edited by Buewulf on April 23, 2015) | ||
| Greatlaker |
First photo I have seen of Erik Buell without a smile on his face. Maybe Hero had second thoughts, or perhaps weak knees for committing to the North American market. Not surprising. Completely different culture for business acumen. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Sure sounds like Hero is out of the picture. | ||
| Sifo |
IMO most people miss the whole point of the ZTL brake system. I know I did for quite a while of owning them myself. It's not about being a better braking system. It's about a brake system that provides better acceleration and turn in. I'm guessing that was critical when Buell was faced with making the most out of a warmed over Sportster engine. I'm not sure the benefits are noticeable enough to make any real world difference though. | ||
| Steveford |
I always liked the ZTL brake - the less weight you've got the better the suspension will respond to bumps plus it's real predictable. It's saved my butt a few times as I deal with homicidal commuters with brains the size of a walnut. | ||
| Stirz007 |
I'm not fast enough to push the ZTL to the limit so it works well enough for me - but - I still go through almost a grand each year maintaining it...(1 rotor, 2-3 sets of pads at $200-300 a pop, hardware) Not hatin' on the ZTL, just sayin'.. Bummed for the EBR guys - they have been stellar in helping me out over the years. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Cross-posted from a thread on ADVrider: http://www.rediff.com/money/report/german-firm-hur ls-espionage-charge-at-hero-cycles/20141009.htm | ||
| Blackm2 |
Now that is the most interesting post of this whole thread Hugh. Check the new article in EBR and Buell in the news section from Motorcyclist mag. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Yea, I posted that link a few posts up earlier. It's sure starting to look like Hero left EBR high and dry. | ||
| Jon |
Those two articles are pretty enlightening. Looks like Hero should change the name of the company to Scoundrel. I hope EBR can get going again. | ||
| Dammitquikgentry |
Just let the smoke clear, I highly doubt Erik is done | ||
| Ourdee |
Davegess +1 | ||
| Malott442 |
How many negative posters here are going to eat crow? I'm already reveling in the hilarity of seeing people back step from their previous stances. EBR FTW | ||
| Crusty |
Davegess +2 | ||
| Jaimec |
Ummm... no... a "Hypothesis" is a proposed explanation for phenomenon. Once sufficient testing has been conducted, the hypothesis is either proven or disproven. If it is proven sufficiently, it becomes a theory. Theory becomes "Law" when it is proven conclusively. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Actually, you are making my point. People complain about stopping power for the ZTL, and just the statement itself shows they are at best being very sloppy in their terminology, and at worst they are clueless. Now if they say "braking feel" or "fade resistance" or "brake lever force", they may have at least an understanding about what they are trying to say. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Interesting thread in the EBR sub-forum. A couple of EBR owners received letters titled "Notice of Receivership, Bar Date for Filing Claims, and Injunction" from the State of Wisconsin yesterday. One of them posted a scan of the letter. Basically it says "if you have any claims against EBR, speak now or forever hold your peace." |
