| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
You are dishonest. Jane you ignorant slut. But just to annoy you, I'll reply. I wonder what viruses Italians and Irish brought with them when they immigrated by the thousands. Lots of them, that's why we had health screenings. How about the Japanese. Are they responsible for the Asian Flu? No, that's from China. Every year. Who were the presidents when all this immigration took place? Why weren't they convicted of criminal activity? Because THAT was LEGAL immigration under laws passed by the Republic. Obama has sponsored ILLEGAL immigration in defiance of the law, to gain power and money. THAT is criminal activity. You're a sick sick person. Not Jewish? | ||
| Kenm123t |
Alfau I didn't realize Rocket had Family in Oz Lol you have more sheep in Oz than in the UK Now about that Aussie Siege are you protesting it? Freddy When we finally get health care back on track You ll get the therapy you desperately need Liberals try to make the rest of us as unhappy as they are ! | ||
| Fredfast |
"Not Jewish?" I'm Jewish | ||
| Alfau |
Not sure rocket would claim me as a relative, kindred spirit perhaps. Two things Aussies dislike. Loud mouth Americans and the know-all Englishmen They both make shit motorbikes. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Make a valid point and our minds will expand. The only point you have made so far is that you are either not that bright or not that motivated. The most reasonable conclusion we can reach at this point is that you are tedious to converse with. (This sounds like a personal attack, but it really isn't, it's just what I have observed so far. I've learned a lot and had my mind changed on a number of topics and become "less conservative" as a result of thoughtful points and thoughtful dialog here and elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of conservative friends that agree with me and that use the same kind of knee jerk sophmoric points you are making, and I would describe talking politics with them as equally tedious and dull.) | ||
| Oldog |
Two things Aussies dislike. Loud mouth Americans and the know-all Englishmen They both make shit motorbikes. What did that contribute to the subject? also why comments about sheep? I thought that this thread was about Ebola, news incites and opinion. any current news on Kaci Hiccox? her room mate in West Africa was said to have the virus, and Maine is trying to get a court order to lock her up for the quarantine period if she becomes contagious or infects any one that woman will be in a world of hurt.... } And does Australia have any world class OEM's for motor cycles? (Message edited by oldog on November 02, 2014) | ||
| Reepicheep |
As for the woman in Maine... I think she is rude and thoughtless. I think of her exactly the same way as I would think of a "2nd amendment activists" that feel the need to open carry long guns in places where it is completely unnecessary to do so. Does she have the right to do what she is doing? Maybe. Is she right about the specific risks here? Maybe. Should she be willingly self quarantined for the potential infectious period? Of course. If she doesn't, is she an a&&hole? Yes, absolutely. If she doesn't, should she be forcibly quarantined? Maybe she should, for all the same reasons we enforce traffic rules and (duh!) health and safety laws. | ||
| Aesquire |
We are putting US soldiers in quarantine. They have different rules, and it's an intelligent decision. We have rules on quarantine to protect the rights of the individual, and the populous as a whole. It's a balancing act. You don't want some officious idiot sticking you in temporary custody, nice hotel room or county jail, if it's not needed. You also don't want self concerned ( selfish idiots ) people who can spread a fatal disease running around at the grocery store. Not picking on any individual here. Self important idiots existed long before we were born. Protecting the rest of us from them is why we have written laws, supposedly argued out by our representatives. We had rules to limit & permit quarantine, but they changed them during the Bush Admin. and the Obama Admin. changed them again. So I don't have a clue what they are today. According to different pundits, Bush's rules were considered a government over reach as far as messing with people goes, and that the Obama rules will be considered an incompetent ideological campaign move. This seems ironic to me, since the Current admin. just loved to keep and grow the Presidential and Bureaucratic Power that the Patriot Act and other "anti-terror" legislation gave the Previous Admin. ( they complained about it then, love it now, naturally ) Having fixed/weakened/changed the Quarantine rules before a plague, is I'm sure bugging the heck out of the current guys, since it opens them to criticism, and denies them the change to abuse power while blaming it on Bush. I admit the above is cynical and Ironically Funny. My point is you have to have flexible rules that protect everyone. Yes, at some point you have to lock people up. This becomes a major rights issue. Opinion? | ||
| Oldog |
We need to protect the general population, from getting exposed to this disease, to temporarily quarantine her is not a violation of her rights, we are protection the masses. Her property and employment can be protected for the short term. If she were calling the pResident names and they wanted to lock her up no issue you can't do it. The politically expedient is of no value if a portion of the populace is killed by the disease, our leader fail on this test too. the FF would have locked her up for the period required. because they were protecting the people that they were serving | ||
| Davegess |
The is absolutely NO reason to quarantine anyone until they have a fever. None. Nada. I will take a bet with any of you that more people in the USA will die from influenza in the next 12 months then will actually become infected with the disease in the USA in the next 12 months. I also think that of those who do contact the disease in the USA close to 90% will live. We are wasting a lot of energy worried about this. | ||
| Sifo |
The is absolutely NO reason to quarantine anyone until they have a fever. None. Nada. We are planning to quarantine our troops who we claim have virtually no danger of having become infected. We are resisting the idea of quarantining medical personnel who are returning from treating Ebola patients in East Africa. We are told that these medical personnel are among the highest risk categories for being infected. Somewhere between these two policies are the makings of common sense. Given the conflicting nature of what we are being told about Ebola, I don't really have a good opinion on what that quarantine policy should be. One day the CDC warns that it can be spread by sneezing or coughing. The next day they remove that information from their web site. It's almost like they are trying to put the people on the verge of panic through half truths of information. The problem with no quarantine, and relying on self reporting is that these high risk individuals have proven themselves to be unreliable at doing the right thing. That's not totally unexpected, given the god complex that doctors often tend to be afflicted with. Add the basic human ability to deny what is happening to them, and they are very likely to ignore early symptoms. If it were so easy to simply avoid infecting people, you wouldn't be seeing the large outbreaks you now see in East Africa. While I would like to think that in the US an outbreak will be more easily controlled, that remains unproven. Should that be proven false, we are leaving our nation open to huge problems. Claiming NO reason, none, nada, implies zero risk. That simply isn't the case here. I thought that the transgender nail bender was asked to not come back. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Excuse me but Ebola has a high mortality rate. The reason the few medical personnel in the U.S. who have been infected have lived is because either they were treated with an experimental drug ( which the supply has been depleted) or they have been given a transfusion by others who have survived and have antibodies in their blood. These lucky individuals can't treat an outbreak of more than a few people. Our hospitals and healthcare system would be overwhelmed by an epidemic. The cost in financial terms would be staggering. It seems crazy to me to not ask people to just stay the f*** home for a few weeks when returning from the front lines. Seriously, it's that inconvenient? I bet staying in one's house is far more comfortable than the hell hole of West Africa these people just returned from. | ||
| Brumbear |
Dave I disagree, we must quarantine for 2 reasons imo we DO NOT KNOW enough about the incubation and can not detect the virus in it's early stages. What I mean is a quick and easy test is not yet available. The good of the many.... I will even give one more many of the country's hospitals do not have the resources yet or MAY not have the ability to deal with the virus. If a pandemic occurred I really feel our great resources would be quickly overrun. The idea to err on the side of caution is a safe bet for you,yours and mine simple. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Furthermore, people in Africa aren't dying of Ebola because they don't have indoor plumbing and air conditioning. A clean hospital bed, water and some magic thrown in won't cure Ebola. All the Chinese herbs in the world won't cure it either. I am reminded of the early days of AIDS when the inflicted were instructed to eat properly and keep their strength up as if that was going to prevent the progression of HIV to AIDS which it didn't. (Message edited by ferris von bueller on November 02, 2014) | ||
| Sifo |
Not to totally derail this topic, but convincing them to plant crops that are drought and pest resistant would go a long ways toward stopping this disease. The African nations tend to be very resistant to planting genetically engineered crops though. Until they are feeding themselves through other means, they will continue to eat infected game. Of course getting them to be able to feed themselves is an incredibly political topic. Good luck getting anywhere with that in our lifetime. | ||
| Aesquire |
Sifo, don't make me pull out the Sam Kinison videos....  Dave, It's not certain that a person with no fever is not contagious. I hope that's true, since it would make separating the infected from the uninfected, but since that information comes from politicians.... it may be untrustworthy. When science or medicine gets politicized, we all lose. Best example is in volcano studies. If you predict an eruption, and it doesn't happen to your prediction, people will eventually quit listening to you. Once they've run away from home once or twice, they will ignore the next warning, and if you guessed right that time, they die. in Italy they prosecuted earthquake scientists. That's INSANE. http://www.nature.com/news/italian-court-finds-sei smologists-guilty-of-manslaughter-1.11640 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/23/jaili ng-italian-seismologists-scientific-community "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". I see the same problem with some of the "Climate" scientists. When the predictions don't work out, year after year, you either are an idiot, or you quit believing them. What if, just what if? They predict a natural disaster that is real, and no one listens because they lied to get grant money? Same thing with Ebola. Airborne? Close contact? Sneezing? Dangerous or not? ( yes, dangerous, is my take ) When you get conflicting statements, and there appears to be a political angle, you have a problem. Tell me that politician X won't lie to get your vote or money? Political appointee Y sure as heck will. He got his job by sucking up. He may or may not be competent as a scientist, but good scientists that are not great BS artists don't get to be head of Government agencies. | ||
| Aesquire |
Oh, and don't pick on the Aussies. Great land, great people. If Alfau wants to speak his mind, and he is factual, I'll listen. I DID ask him his opinion on travel from the infected countries, I'm still waiting for a coherent answer. If he can bash Americans and the English, ( and we know there's plenty of justification for both ) he should be able to clearly state an opinion. It might be one we agree on, but until he tells us....... | ||
| Kenm123t |
Old Dog I tease Rocket about being a sheep chaser. Rocket is cranky but actually good hearted but does his damnest to hide it. Aussies have a over abundance of sheep. Most Aussies I know from the Shooting community are great people and fun to be around. But every nation inflicts us with Slinky People Pretty much Useless but fun to shove down the stairs. We have Fred Aussies have Alfau for example. lol Now Freddy does your mommy and or wifey know you hang out with those Motorcycle people lol She has seen the SOA trailers Old dog Patric Blake and most others here try to have factual and reasoned discussions of today's Issues. I love to debate with logical and non delusional people. The fools idiots demon possessed and just plain old mean folks I just have no time for and will not suffer in my presence. I tease Patric when I am too lazy to look up the full details of a subject His term paper posst are informative and Accurate Blake is the same way but less verbose. Rocket Now that is a guilty pleasure kinda like poking the caged howler monkey the response is always fun! Fred and alfau both hate my country and way of life. Why would I ever consider their positions as any thing but the voice of the enemy one foreign and the other domestic Many of us have sworn an oath to defend protect the country from both examples. | ||
| Oldog |
More people in the USA will die from influenza in the next 12 months, then will actually become infected with the disease in the USA in the next 12 months. I wont take that bet Dave, You are .. most likely .. right BUT If/[when] ebola gets here and gets away from us, the death toll will be staggering and the 70% death rate is almost certain. Dallas was a very near miss, 1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128 etc..... Aside from political theater, tax money is spent for research, and when running puma's on tread mills or experiments are done with aquatic animals that seem to have little real world use, I have to wonder could vaccine or a cure have been developed. I understand that a pill for ED is more profitable than dealing with a lethal 3rd world disease. Ken thanks for you explanation I kinda figured it might work that way. I think its safe to say that most who follow this as news are not "worried" but are paying attention this government has a dismal track record of getting it right. And Ms Hiccox should be quarantined if she is healthy great, if not it will be caught early, How much will the NY search for possible contacts cost ?? If the Doc had been care less the results could have been quite different we are playing with fire to self monitor. Hiccox attitude proves it..... | ||
| Court |
I'm less concerned about Ebola than I am with the fact that . . once again . . . our leaders lied and made Americans' the victims of their incompetence. Their story has been in constant flux starting with "no way it'll get here" . . to the "it's alright . . photo hug". The CDC has changed their tune and protocols a couple times and their appears to be some debate and how easy the disease is to transmit as new mutations evolve. I don't see the disease as near the threat as some of the folks we're trusted to lead us. | ||
| Reepicheep |
My understanding (from someone who would probably know) is that the concentration of the virus climbs over time while you are getting infected. He said something about something per decaliter. So before you get the fever, the virus *can* be spread through bodily fluids, but the concentration of the virus is very low. However, only one strand of the virus is enough to spread it and kill you. So it's a game of statistics, but as Mr. Guess said, the statistics are pretty good that you won't get it from somebody not showing symptoms. But if you do start spreading it during it's incubation period, it's a double whammy, because this particular virus is very sloppy when reproducing. It keeps changing. So the "magic bullet" may appear tomorrow even though we have not seen it today, and if that magic bullet is one that spreads earlier and lives outside the body longer or is transmitted via air, it then will reproduce about a million copies of it's self to further redistribute. I also worry about the volatility of this particular strain during the short period between "asymptomatic" and "symptomatic". Take this particular case, the woman measured feverish because she had been on a grueling flight and was stressed during an interview and it was measured wrong several times. And she was right, it was a false positive, it's a squishy thing to measure, particularly in the early stages. But it's squishy both ways. The other "positive" patient in NY *was* running a fever, but was out and about anyway, because he either didn't know it yet, or was in denial about what he did know. Quarantine isn't a magic bullet in the long run, but during early stages, where you have clear and obvious high risk cases, it probably makes some sense. How about this approach? If somebody wants to spend time in a current hotbed of infection, and come back and do whatever they want whenever they want when they get back, have them source and purchase an insurance policy that will cover all liabilities for all the people they might cause to be infected. Get some Dr's and stats geeks grinding on that scenario, and get somebody with enough money to cover that bet, and let them make more money by being right and winning it by selling insurance. A third party has to audit and make sure there is enough $$ available in escrow to cover the bet (and not an "AIG smoke and mirrors type cover). That's a fantastic "free market" tool to get to a specific measure or costs and risks, everyone has to put their money on a bet. | ||
| Oldog |
Wait Insurance to provide payment to the families of the DEAD in case some one comes back positive and gets thru the non existent "process". How about this, a law that says that IF you enter an area with a dangerous nearly incurable disease to give aid and comfort to those whom are suffering that you will return and be quarantined for the period of incubation, your employment and property will be protected by law, I honestly don't know what else can be done in compensation, I admire the compassion of those who choose to willingly go to places like west Africa, BUT I think that they should understand that others who have chosen not to go are at risk if they reenter this country and later are found to be ill from the disease, then whose rights have been violated the volunteer or the innocent victim who elected not to go? One accidental death is one too many in this case 3 weeeks to keep others safe is a minor price to pay, has there been any word on the Doctor from NYC? | ||
| Reepicheep |
They wouldn't be able to get insurance, which is the point I was driving towards. There is, sadly, a price on accidentally killing someone. It's in the millions, and depends to a large extent on culpability. Killing somebody because you did specific things and are vain and don't want to be inconvenienced would be... expensive... So the returning nurse would need to pay somebody enough that they will commit to cover the $6,000,000+ or whatever likely settlement that will happen for each person infected as a result of her unwillingness to cooperate with the quarantine. It would be like trying to buy insurance to cover you so you can drive drunk. Nobody will sell it because it would just be too expensive. That's another good analogy. Many drunk drivers could carefully get home just fine, but we as society force them not to drive, because the risks are simply too high. And rightfully so. I definitely want to see us avoid some kind of government overreaction like the patriot act post 911 response. So I am actually glad hard questions are being asked in these situations. This case is just frustrating, as it should be self resolved by a medical professional taking reasonable steps to avoid stressing the &*&&& out of everyone around her. Anyone choosing to go should, like Jim said, consider a 30 day self quarantine as "the cost of doing business" for their selfless and noble service to their fellow humans. &*&^&**( telecommute, get a good book, heck I'll buy your NetFlix subscription. Have chinese food delivered and left on your doorstep. It's only 5 weeks. | ||
| Oldog |
three weeks... Thanks for the clarification.. My 0.02$ is that Ms Hiccox lost my respect or admiration - let alone support, because of her actions, I hope that she is UN-infected not for her benefit but for the community she resides in. I believe that NJ & NY can do a little better for patient comfort than a tent and porta-jon. Perhaps the Gov could have gotten in front of this by speaking directly to her early on and asured her that more comfortable accommodations were in the works ( if that was the case ) (Message edited by oldog on November 03, 2014) | ||
| Alfau |
Make a valid point and our minds will expand. Honda rules, is that valid enough for you slut ? | ||
| Alfau |
Here is a valid point for you dopey! Buell is still king of the shit when it comes to investment. | ||
| Blake |
What's going on Alf? You seem not yourself. You and family ok? | ||
| Aesquire |
Hondas are ok.... the only one of the big 4 I haven't owned, but I really liked 2 buddy's Sabers. How did you know I was a slut? I prefer passionate, but my Lady would agree with you. Opinion on travel restrictions to Oz from the plague zone? ( which may include America soon ) | ||
| Davegess |
Well the current score is Ebola 2 Flu 5 dead. Looks like my prediction that more folks would die from flu than Ebola in the USA was correct. Lots of panic and finger pointing for no apparent reason  Glad i was correct | ||
| Hootowl |
And more than that died falling down the stairs. What's your point? You need to look at mortality rates. How many people contracted the flu vs. how many died of it. That is a valid comparison. Absolute numbers don't mean a thing. Your comparison is dishonest at best. |
