| Author | Message | ||
     Greatlaker |
I just assumed innocence was presumed until proven guilty. I now know better. | ||
| Aesquire |
No, your assumption was correct. Mr. Brown is legally innocent of any crime I know of. ( I do not know his record ) So is the Officer who has been slandered by many in public. | ||
| Fast1075 |
In the above surveillance picture, had that been myself in the clutches of that towering behemoth, I would have been in fear for my life, and defended myself with deadly force. Society wins, if you think otherwise, you are stupid. Of course, my opinion may be tainted due to the fact that when I was 21, I had my jaw broken by an "unarmed teen" in a robbery. I weighed 115 pounds, and he weighted around 250, and I was unarmed. My attacker was not black, but it makes absolutely no difference. He spent 2 years in jail, but learned nothing from the experience. He ended up face down in a home invasion a few years later. Darwin wins. | ||
| Hootowl |
Another perspective on the choke hold death. http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/politics/peter-king- eric-garner-thanks-grand-jury-for-verdict/index.ht ml?hpt=hp_t1 | ||
| Oldog |
Perhaps just thinking for a moment, One reason we are seeing a rise in "Police brutality" is the pronounced level of dis-respect and un-cooperativeness, The citizens whom are the subjects of these reports exhibit. Many of these horrible incidents happen because people are mouthing off at the officers, and not complying with their instructions. I have friends and family whom are LEO's what lesser laker misses, is that the officer when faced with a situation needs to 1. get control of the situation, 2. gather information 3. take action as dictated by law and the rules of his or her department As in the brown case it seems that when folks resist the officer doing his job there are consequences folks like brown do not take those into account. | ||
| Reepicheep |
We are not a court of law. You are right that we are making subjective statements. Subjective does not necessarily mean they have to be uninformed, and it does not necessarily mean they are incorrect either. A variety of subjective conclusions will be made by a variety of people regarding the Mr. Brown's death, those subjective conclusions informed by as many facts as possible. It's a shame that the race baiters and media did *such* a terrible job of vetting facts early in the process, and brought forth a narrative that suited them, but was pretty much pure fantasy. It clouded what may have been a real issues, which is an opportunity to improve community and police partnerships, and refine processes for police interventions to increase the chance of better outcomes. When you make up a "hands up, don't shoot" fantasy, ignore the 90%+ contribution by the 90%+ contributor, and add thugary to thugary, you destroy your credibility, and potential contributions to the bad outcome cop *may* have made become the baby thrown out with the bathwater. There *do* appear to be some problems with the officers actions. Some of this is inevitable due to limits of human systems, some is inevitable just due to the complexity and number of opportunities for defect. Was there more? We won't know, because idiots have poisoned the well. The officers story changed slightly, and the evidentary procedures weren't quite followed correctly. Those are my subjective informed conclusions. My other subjective informed conclusions are that the thug is dead because he was a thug making really bad decisions, and his lifelong game of russian roulette eventually came up with a round in the cylinder. The cop might have failed to make a hail mary play and somehow save said thug from said thugs decisions. I want and celebrate cops that are magicians in these kinds of situations. But the fact that they couldn't pull off a miracle at that moment isn't a reason to indict them. | ||
| Chauly |
http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/03/hands-up-dont- choke-eric-garner-was-murdered-by-police-for-no-re ason/?utm_source=The+Federalist+List&utm_campaign= 9dfccdaa24-RSS_DAILY_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=ema il&utm_term=0_cfcb868ceb-9dfccdaa24-83771089 | ||
| Court |
>>>I just assumed innocence was presumed until proven guilty. An easy path . . admittedly . . for the small of mind who seek a simple explanation. Using that standard . . Jack Ruby and Sirhan Sirhan, who we saw murder folks on television, can not be declared potentially guilt, absent a trial running it's long and winding course. That thinking also allows me to say that the shooters in several of the last mass school shootings are "not criminals". It's poor logic. I have , from time to time, been pulled over by the NYPD. I'm not that bright but intuitively I know.
I account for that. When I get pulled over in a car . . by the time the cop gets out I have the keys in one hand, license in the other and have both hands hanging way out the window. I've been trained, in the USMC, to quickly assess and respond to threats in life and death situations. I know that, on it's best day, it's not a perfect science as you try, with adrenaline pumping to assess not only the situation you are faced with but your general surroundings. Case in point . . . I was with my BIL on a Xmas day "ride along" with the Sacramento PD. Holidays bring out the worst in terms of domestic situations. We went to a house where there was a raging husband v. wife situation. I recall standing there, in the entry hall, as he started to deal with the situation. As he began I saw a small child, about 4 run from the kitchen toward a bedroom. Even though I was supposed to "stay in the shadows", I instinctively followed the child. Too many of these scenarios could have had the child returning with daddy's .357 from the bedside table to keep the Officer from harming mom and dad. I learned, during my time traveling with The White House, to be aware of, monitor and constantly assess ALL potential things that may influence and event. The instant cases are troublesome in that seldom is anyone, perp or cop, entirely right or wrong. We're faced with having the only choices being a dichotomy . . . "indict" or "don't indict" which preclude lots of gray area. For example, I think the cops who shot the young lad with the Airsoft toy pistol, in retrospect, should not have come skidding, Barney Fife style, to within 10' of a reported "person with a gun". My training, admittedly not law enforcement, has taught me to approach while maximizing the benefit of cover and concealment. But . . . if I'd have been that close to a person pointing a gun (no one here and I'd wager a precious few pros) can tell one of those "toys" from a real 1911A1, I'd have likely done the same thing. So we get left having to make a "did the cop do something stupid" or "did the cop do something criminal" decision within the context of a Grand Jury. Personally (PERSONALLY) I think in 3 recent cases the cops could have made better decisions.
Fact is . . like it or not . . . mistakes happened but nothing ever even approached criminal intent . . which is all a Grand Jury is seeking to determine. It's a shame. It's also a shame that folks like the pResident and our Mayor, two patently unqualified to either offer opinion, insert themselves into the process, with general condemnations of law enforcement officers. The first thing we need are much better leaders. | ||
| Sifo |
who the hell makes a "federal case" out of selling loosies and how is it that 4 trained folks can't control an unarmed guy, regardless of size Alright, I haven't seen the whole uncut video, and I'm sure I'm not up to speed on all aspects of this case, but I did catch on the news that the store owner he was in front of made a complaint. Not the first time either. Should the police ignore the law abiding store owner who is having and illegal operation set up in front of his store, stealing his customers? I think the police have to take complaints like these seriously, and address them. Didn't the police give him the chance to simply move on? Once the decision is made to make the arrest, what should be done with a resistor? That is going to escalate whatever happens. That escalation is on the resistor, not the cops. The autopsy stated the the guys physical condition was contributing factors to his death. The cops have no control over that. Even so, how would they control any of that, assuming they could somehow be aware of his physical condition? One thing I don't know about all of this that seems important to blame placed on the cops is when did the police call for medical assistance? Anyone know that answer? | ||
| Hootowl |
Rep King makes a good point when he says the guy was speaking, so he must have been breathing. You have to breathe to speak. I'll link it again. http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/politics/peter-king- eric-garner-thanks-grand-jury-for-verdict/index.ht ml?hpt=hp_t1 | ||
| Court |
I'm not suggesting the PD "ignore" it, they should respond pronto to the store owners request. This occurred is a really •••••• neighborhood that I am very familiar with. But . . . when Garner first showed signs of resisting the IMMEDIATE (within seconds) reaction was to jump on him like kids in a playground fight. He was unarmed and, even though he resisted arrest, present ZERO physical threat to the cops. Frankly . . . and I understand I was NOT there and can only speculate . . . I'd have given the guy a soaking of pepper spray he'd still be washing off. I wold not have put myself at risk. >>>>The autopsy stated the the guys physical condition was contributing factors to his death. True and there is the old "Eggshell Skull Rule".
Interesting cases over the years . . .kids walk in a house, wearing masks, don't know the old man has a heart condition exacerbated by anxiety and he is, literally, scared to death. It's murder. Think of it as a human bailment . . . when you commit a Tort . . .you take your victim, complete with all their ills, as you find them. If they would not have died, absent your actions, it's murder. | ||
| Sifo |
I'd have given the guy a soaking of pepper spray he'd still be washing off. I think this man would have likely died from that too. Then what? | ||
| Reindog |
Almost everything is out of proportion concerning Eric Garner: * police action. * stupid law. * stupid politicians. * outrageous taxation that created a black market. * "criminal" race baiters. The Actual Facts of The Eric Garner Case on Breitbart. http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/12/03 /actual-facts-Eric-Garner | ||
| Court |
>>>I think this man would have likely died from that too. Then what? Easy. The SAME thing would have happened with the Grand Jury, but it'd be a hell of a lot easier from folks to create, in their own minds, the contribution the cops and Garner's health, each played in the tragedy. And . . his widow would still get the $25,000,000 . . she's going to get (it won't even to to trial, they'll just write the check) she'd going to get in the Civil case. | ||
| Sifo |
So essentially the same outcome? Personally, I would like to see a rational society that understands that the outcome of escalating a stop by a cop is going to go poorly. BTW, the cops had no way of knowing he was unarmed, and I would venture a guess that they likely felt a certain level of threat from him. Many people have been killed by a single sucker punch. He was a big dude! I tend to agree with the assessment by Breitbart that Reindog posted. Still, it doesn't answer all of my questions. If I resist a cop though, I do expect to come out on the loosing end of that battle. | ||
| Hootowl |
"society that understands that the outcome of escalating a stop by a cop is going to go poorly" There it is. Several folks would still be around if they had understood this simple concept. It's a concept most of us understand without having to be specifically told about it. | ||
| Aesquire |
The Communist Mayor ordered a crackdown on these common minor TAX VIOLATIONS. Haven't watched the video yet. Seems like many conservatives believe the jury was wrong. I understand they are throwing the book at the guy who made the video. Still not seeing tea party folk burning cars & businesses. I support the police. If a cop breaks the law he must be treated as a more responsible person. He knows better and if guilty must be punished. Or he's not a cop, he's Gestapo. | ||
| Hootowl |
"I understand they are throwing the book at the guy who made the video" It's illegal to film cops some places. And yes, I'm talking about places in America. Seems like something a totalitarian government would impose, not one by, of, and for the people. | ||
| Hootowl |
I should clarify. Filming officers is not illegal. But people are being charged with wiretapping, or 'intercepting an oral conversation' for doing so. | ||
| Court |
Well . . there are laws in Illinois, Massachusetts, and Maryland. But, generally, if a person is in a public place they surrender any expectation of privacy and, as long as you don't interfere with their duties and you are standing somewhere you can legally be (you can't go on private property to film) the law is on your side. Anyplace has the right to have a "no photos" rule. When I am in a Jazz club or a school or theatre function . . I ask. Some are ok, others are not. But . . . no one can stop me from sitting down the street with an 800mm lens and shooting photos of them all day. http://gizmodo.com/5553765/are-cameras-the-new-gun s | ||
| Hootowl |
More disinformation. Specifically about the choke hold, and the witnesses in the Brown case. Half the witnesses sided with the cop, half of them are liars or misremember the event, as the physical evidence upholds the officer and other witness accounts. And he has the stones to say that Barkley is the one who is misinformed. http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/04/opinion/johnson-char les-barkley/index.html?hpt=hp_t3 | ||
| Hootowl |
A federal appeals court has ruled those no-film laws unconstitutional, which is why they've started charging people with wiretapping instead. | ||
| Hootowl |
More disinformation from CNN. http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/04/justice/new-york-gra nd-jury-chokehold/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 "Similar pleas for no violence from the parents of Michael Brown went unheeded" Liars. The step father is on tape calling for the burning of the city. | ||
| Court |
I'd be inclined to remove that hoax picture. It degrades us and interferes with thoughtful dialogue. | ||
| Reindog |
strokizator, Think. If you can't verify an obviously photoshopped picture, then please remove it. Think, people. --Tom Reiner. | ||
| Gaesati |
Irony? | ||
| Sifo |
 | ||
| Blake |
Then mothers should raise their sons to be law-abiding, gracious and respectful. | ||
| Hootowl |
Yeah. "Don't attack the police" seems like something everyone should instinctively know. This isn't the first time people have rallied around a false narrative. We elected BO, didn't we? Twice. | ||
| Hootowl |
"America's Mayor" brought up several good points last night, chief among them that if black mothers are worried about their black sons when they leave the house, they shoudn't be worried about the white police, they should be worried about other black men, because that's who accounts for 96% of the murders of black men. Rudy also argues that white police officers have saved the lives of thousands of black men through their policing efforts that bought the murder rate from the thousands to the hundreds per year in NY. |
