| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
You remember, the guy that made man equal. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The Webly's that the UK sold when it disarmed it's citizens uses a .38 S&W cartridge, not to be confused with .38 special. It was originally a black powder cartridge. I ought to try one with a black powder load just for fun. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Gaesati, I think you are getting your data from biased sources that have manipulated the facts to suit their agenda. Accidental firearm deaths are very rare. They happen, but I suspect they are about as common as a lightning strike or getting a piano dropped on you. There are suicides using firearms. There are defensive uses of firearms where people defend themselves against armed or unarmed attackers. There are criminals who use guns as their preferred tool for murder. I'd bet the largest cause of gun deaths by at least an order of magnitude is criminals committing criminal acts. Particular when you take into account "deaths caused per gun". Which is part of the reason legal gun owners get so touchy about making legal gun ownership illegal. Murder is already illegal, murder with a gun is already more illegal than murder without a gun. So making gun ownership illegal, independent of any crime by an individual with no criminal history, mental illness history, or restraining order, is just disarming people that follow the law and would not murder anyway (and that would also be the ones likely to step forward and possibly stop a criminal before they could kill more people). (Message edited by reepicheep on September 26, 2014) | ||
| Ulyranger |
" if no one had a gun why would you need one?" The beautiful thing about inherent, Constitutionally protected (not granted), rights are that we do not have to present "need" for self preservation any more than we do to; - to freely express our views - to freely practice, or not the religion of our choosing - to be secure in our persons, property, effects and papers from unreasonable search and seizure - to freely assemble for peaceful purposes - to be presumed innocent, right to trial by jury, free from self incrimination... Rights are something you are born with, not granted by the elite class to the serfs. Thankfully "need" has no place in this discussion... A firearm is just a tool, an instrument if you will. I have guns that are primarily purposed for self defense. I have others that are tools of my trade. Some are utilized for gathering sustenance for the family and others for pure sport. And some I own just because... I won't even address the "what if firearms didn't exist" fantasy. You don't like, want or "need" a gun Rocket? Good for you, seriously. I'm a huge fan of free choice in all aspects of life. I just ask for the same respect from those that choose not to exercise their rights.... | ||
| Reepicheep |
It's hard to find good attributed data out there. Anecdotally, if you compare "car owners getting killed in a car accident" versus "gun owners getting killed in a gun accident", you are 20 times more likely to kill yourself in a car accident with your car than you are to kill yourself in a gun accident with your gun. This chart:  Was on this blog: http://blogtruth.net/2013/01/17/gun-stats-gun-deat hs-by-category/ And it had references, but I didn't try and vet any. The data intuitively seems reasonable though. | ||
| Ulyranger |
Reep, the other part of the discussion relative to your last paragraph I find amusing/disgusting is many of the same folks who openly promote the criminality of simple possession of certain firearms and their related parts (to be differentiated from criminal use) is they are commonly in favor of "decriminalizing" the possession of other objects/products.....  | ||
| Aesquire |
I worked with a guy who hunted woodchuck with a .50 Govt. aka .50-70. He had an original Sharps rifle, and always used black powder to be sure that antique would still be there, along with his face, at the end of the day. With a bullet the size of the end of your thumb you could actually watch this cannon projectile arc through the air hundreds of yards, often ending in a audible thump ( by that time your ears had time to relax from the muzzle blast ) and a varmint, a huge, cute rat, flip into the woods. "That's Horrible!" some would say. "Why mercilessly and without warning slaughter a cute, fat, roly poly ever so cute critter that's a part of nature?" Because Farmers die when their tractors flip on a 'chuck den. We in the US are so good at growing food we feed the planet and our poor's worst health problem is obesity. So I suppose w can let the cute furry bundle of joy have a few of our crops without worrying about it. The dead farmers though... I love Chuck hunting. I knew a Widow from such an accident. Great lady. made a lot of ginger cookies, and gave them freely to the kids. Also ran a modest farm with a few hired hands... This was in South Dakota. A place people only go to to see Mt Rushmore, The Black Hills or Sturgis for the bikers... And there's good reason South Dakota isn't much of a tourist trap except for those Black Hills, foothills of the Awesome Rocky Mountains... The rest of the state is mostly farms. Farms larger than Belgium. My Widow cookie baker's farm wasn't that big. You could ride a bicycle across it in one day. It was a modest spread by Texas standards. It's output would only feed, say, Sudan. In fact, if the output of that farm, and the pasture land of one rancher over next to the Badlands of the Black Hills, was sent to Sudan, and given equally to the people, they would be able to eat better than anyone else on the continent. Certainly have more steak. Now it's easy to indulge in hyperbole about midwest American farms. Her farm wasn't half the size of Berkshire County in England. ( more like a 1/4 ) Didn't produce a fraction of the fresh vegetables of my local NY farms, since it was nearly entirely sown in Rye, Wheat, and Corn. But I do remember a statistic from my youth, when the American Green Revolution was kicking in, and we really started feeding the world, and the famines my parents read about in China, Africa, and Soviet Europe, stopped. The State of Kansas, 82,277 sq mi, produced more wheat than the Soviet Union, 8,649,538 sq mi. And still does. | ||
| Sifo |
One problem with any "gun use" statistics is that there is no way to count how many times guns are used in self defense, by civilians or cops, but never fired. I have no doubt that this number is large enough to be statistically significant. Most likely one of the larger categories on that pie chart. I also find putting suicides in there kind of wrong. If you kill yourself by running your car in the garage, is that an auto accident? It's sad, but has little to do with gun problems. BTW, why would you ever need a gun. The news right now is reporting that there was just a beheading, I think in OK somewhere. Stabbed several others. Ended with a defensive gun use by the owner of the company where it happened. Sounds like 911 was still taking down the data when the gun shot rang out. Cops just can't respond that fast. Details will be available soon. | ||
| Sifo |
http://kfor.com/2014/09/25/reports-police-respond- to-possible-shooting-near-moore-grocery-store/ | ||
| Reepicheep |
Stopped by the chief operating officer of the company no less. | ||
| Hootowl |
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/26/us/oklahoma-beheadin g/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 Workplace violence. Nothing to see here. Move along. | ||
| Sifo |
The Moore Police Department released the 911 tapes associated with the attack. 911 Caller: “Shut the door, shut the door!” Dispatcher: “Moore 911, where is your emergency?” 911 Caller: “Vaughan Foods, Moore, Oklahoma, 216 N.E. 12th St. We have..” Dispatcher: “What’s going on there?” 911 Caller: “We have someone attacking someone in the building. I was just informed. I’m in the..” Dispatcher: “Okay, where are they at?” 911 Caller: “Inside, are they in the office? They’re in the office, front office of the building. Yeah, we can hear a lot of screaming. We’re actually in a different office but someone just came in here yelling.” Dispatcher: “315. Okay, do you know where they’re at in the building?” 911 Caller: “In the front of the building, there’s our main entrance.” Dispatcher: “Okay, do you know where he is at in the plant?” 911 Caller: “We know that he’s loose. He has stabbed someone.” Dispatcher: “Yeah, we’ve got medical en route for them. 911 Caller: “Okay.” Dispatcher: “Is anybody with him or do you know?” 911 Caller: “Hold on, my (garbled.) Dispatcher: “Respond on lacerations. Vaughan Foods, 216, go ahead sir, N.E. 12th.” 911 Caller: “I’m going to put you on speakerphone for one second, okay?” Dispatcher: “Standby on a map. Page 1608, time out.” 911 Caller: “Okay, so we don’t know where the person went and he went through our front office, went through the shipping office and stabbed a woman in our customer service department.” Dispatcher: “Okay, did he know her? Do you know, is that who he was arguing with? Is she an employee?” 911 Caller: “She is an employee, yeah.” Dispatcher: “Okay, thank you.” 911 Caller: “Lock that door.” Dispatcher: “Yeah, go ahead lock everybody in there if you can.” 911 Caller: “Yeah, we’re trying. Okay, can you hear this in the background?” (yelling) Dispatcher: “Is that him? He’s back?” 911 Caller: “Yeah, it sounds like he’s running around out here.” (loud bangs) 911 Caller: “And that, that’s a gun shot.” | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I'm betting that you will insist that the genocidal, poison gas using, Imperialist conquerors of a planetary Empire are far too genteel and kind to be violent with one another, excepting football games. Why do you have to turn everything I say into a confrontation? I say again the greatest technological aid to women's equality is a repeating handgun. It's the 21st century. A civilised society doesn't require guns to make women equal. The UK has been proving this for more than a hundred years. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
how do you hunt deer? Shotgun, BTW a shotgun is a good home defense weapon. Deer? I'd have to ask my friend that one. I know they shoot for the heart otherwise they won't take the shot. I'm told we're overrun with deer. Shotguns and home defense are a very serious no no here. Several years ago a homeowner shot dead a 16 year old intruder with a shotgun. It's an interesting case if nothing else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer) Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Rights are something you are born with Sadly your arse is owned from the moment your parents register your birth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYJzXkcJgEU He might be talking to a British audience but his words are no less true no matter where you are. It's an entertaining listen whether you accept his views or not. Enjoy  Rocket in England | ||
| Hootowl |
There are several thousand women who would disagree with you there Rocket.  | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Anecdotally, if you compare "car owners getting killed in a car accident" versus "gun owners getting killed in a gun accident", you are 20 times more likely to kill yourself in a car accident with your car than you are to kill yourself in a gun accident with your gun. I can believe that. The state of most drivers on UK roads! I reckon those who own guns for recreation pride themselves at being good with them. We could only hope all drivers had the same attitude and respect for their chosen tool. Rocket in England | ||
| Hootowl |
Oh yes, very civilized. http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/ 11/male-female-rape-statistics-graphic | ||
| Aesquire |
I have said I don't blame you for your ancestors genocide against mine. ....... But you are obviously wrong. A lady did need a gun to save her from a 21st century dark ages fellow who seems to adopt a "certain culture". Alas the other women in her office was beheaded before an American exercising his rights stopped the bad man. You really have to quit believing those people that consider you ever so useful. | ||
| Hootowl |
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/26/us/oklahoma-beheadin g/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 Looks like it was an off duty cop who put the bastard down. I wonder how many people he saved by shooting the suspect? "but it could have gotten a lot worse. This guy was definitely not going to stop. He didn't stop until he was shot" | ||
| Sifo |
Off duty cop who happened to be COO of that company. More accurately a reserve deputy. Was this one of those American "moderate Muslims" that we hear so much about? | ||
| Oldog |
shotguns and home defense are a very serious no no here. Sad to hear that, Black powder works too. I live by my self and have weapons. I live in an out lying area. Its advantages for me to be able to respond to a home break in or Invasion, because response time for LEO's to my home is about 10 minutes at best so I ether protect my self or become a report... Rocket not all US gun owners are maniacs. accidents happen, and so do tragedies, Brown being shot IMO was self inflicted all he had to do was comply with the officer a broken eye socket for the man ( the police officer ) is a sure sign that brown did not comply, } | ||
| S21125r |
Rocket my perspective again… The US gun murder rate is something like 10 out of 100,000 per year. I find it almost as useless as arguing over what car manufacture has the highest quality scores when the difference is less than 1 per 100 vehicles. Just not something you can discern with the naked eye without statistics. Lots of room for improvement though but our politicians always attack symptoms instead of root causes. I’ve seen a few studies that indicate that a small network of offenders (~ 15-20% of the sample) accounted for ~80% of the gun crimes. These seem to align with the FBI’s own statistics that show high correlation of gun homicides when either the victim or perpetrator being a career criminal. Those stats also shows high correlation with large urban areas. So our problems here are small pockets of urban blight where criminal elements reside which fortunately has a small geographical footprint. Stay out of the ghetto and you wont notice a difference between here and home. I mention symptoms vs. root cause above… gun control doesn’t fix these neighborhoods. Taking a gun from an otherwise violent person doesn’t make them any less violent. It's akin to putting a bandaid on gaping head wound. Poverty, poor education, unemployment, drugs use, poor moral character, etc all contributed to how those neighborhoods became violent and should be the things that we try to fix. That’s not easy – certainly can’t be fixed in one election cycle. The gun problem here will mostly fix itself once the root causes of the social decay are fixed. So now take a step back and view the situation through a law abiding gun owner’s lens – we don’t see gun problems where we live, work and hang out. My parents don’t even have locks on their doors… We wouldn’t think about harming anyone with our guns unless our lives were in danger. We are responsible members of community that cross all demographics. And yet politicians treat us as if we were part of the problem. Shame us into feeling remorse for something we had nothing to do with. And then they try to apply solution A to the entire country when a targeted application of solution B, C, D, and E would be more efficient. Public condemnation shortly follows for not getting on board even though there is nothing EVER given in return. Whether you agree or not, can you at least understand why Pro Gun people get pissy when gun control is brought up every other week? | ||
| Aesquire |
I'm betting that you will insist that the genocidal, poison gas using, Imperialist conquerors of a planetary Empire are far too genteel and kind to be violent with one another, excepting football games. Why do you have to turn everything I say into a confrontation? I thought that was your purpose, to anger others for fun. I should have included a smiley face, sorry. However, I was accurate. It's the 21st century. A civilised society doesn't require guns to make women equal. The UK has been proving this for more than a hundred years. you did exactly as I predicted. You insist that your little part of your island doesn't have a violence problem. Which would come as a surprise to the many victims of violence there. Not so much to the police who we find have been under orders not to even take official note of violent assault, since it would mean the laws to restrict YOUR rights have had the exact opposite effect they promised, and so feel a need to lie to protect their power. I can provide references. I do admit that when you were a child, your country had far less violent crime than your's or mine does today. I'd say we have a much larger drug-prohibition problem here than England, and with larger cities a larger problem all other things being equal. London isn't ( fill in your local bedroom community ) just as the bedroom community I live in isn't Rochester, the 1.1 million person city I am near. A former industrial powerhouse and technology center, Rochester has fallen on hard times with the looting and destruction of 2 out of 3 of it's largest industrial companies. The third is hanging on, but a shadow of it's former self. We still have very good high tech companies, and if you need it machined, you can get it done here to a level of precision and quality higher than all but a handful of firms in Germany and Japan combined. The lack of good industrial jobs and the US's long term leftist Dole reliant political party has made unemployment endemic to the city. The Suburbs hang on, and despite the drag of a welfare state economy in the City proper, are relatively thriving, and the countryside is still a major agricultural area. Out where I live we have the usual number of murders, crimes of passion, just as any village in England would have. Rare, shocking, newsworthy. But mostly rare. In the City, a solid 90+% of all the weekly assaults and murders are directly related to the Drug Prohibition laws, and the Culture of Urban Dolist living. So...  Hoot & Sifo, not even an off duty cop, but a citizen who volunteers to help if needed. America has a lot of that kind of hero. Most never need to show it, and FAR fewer times do we ever find out. | ||
| Torquehd |
how do you hunt deer? Everyone knows they hunt deer with yew bows in secret, because Prince John has made it illegal for anyone but him to hunt stag. A civilised society doesn't require guns to make women equal. Despite the brainwashing of this day and age, women are not equal. I guess, you guys who are civilians, working in offices may have a different perspective. I'm in a combat arms MOS, and this thing of trying to integrate women would be laughable, if we didn't all understand how serious congress is about it. It was designed to fail from the beginning. I can tell you first hand stories about women who tried to be equal to men, and how it turned out for them. However... Smith and Wesson is the primary equalizer when it comes to altercations. Guns don't care about gender. Although, some big guns (M2, Mk19) might present operational challenges for some females. They're awful hard to shoot if you can't pull the bolt to the rear. The "if no one had guns, no one would need guns" argument from earlier... i think you misunderstand the purpose of guns. Guns don't protect you from other guns. They protect you from other people. And all the "ifs" in the world don't change a damn thing. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
There are several thousand women who would disagree with you there Rocket. Equality has nothing to do with rape! you did exactly as I predicted. You insist that your little part of your island doesn't have a violence problem. Patrick, sometimes I wish you'd just shut up. Where the f**k did I say anything so stupid? Might I suggest if you're going to continue debating with me, you stop telling me what it is you think I believe in. It's become all so tedious and just makes you look like a jerk from where I'm looking. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Let's just clear something up. I've no problem with a society that allows its citizens to carry guns. It's not my favoured choice, which is why I prefer our UK laws over those of the U.S. I just see it as too many idiots out there with them. Idiots have guns. Does that sound like a good idea to anyone here? Let me answer for you. No is the answer - but you'll all excuse the idiots because you've got your guns too. I have no problem with guns. I like guns. I wish I could have some. If I lived in America I'm certain I would. Now you can call me a hypocrite, but I'd want one for fun is all, but there's this lingering thought in my mind, if I lived there I'd want one for my defense. Why? Because every f**ker else has got them - including the nasty people. Another reason why I prefer UK law. It's ever so much less likely an armed person is going to break into my home. Rocket in England | ||
| Ljm |
I haven't been following this thread much but at the risk of being tarred and feathered, I agree with Sean. I would rather live in a society where there are no guns in the hands of people who don't hunt or target shoot, or are involved in defense, either civil or military. That being said, I don't. I live on the frontier where every man, woman, little old lady, half the kids, and every criminal has one (or several). I want one too under those circumstances. I feel safer in places where there are few guns. I feel better able to defend myself when I have one. As regards Ferguson, it hasn't been before a grand jury, and certainly not to further proceedings. Time will tell.. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Despite the brainwashing of this day and age, women are not equal. I think you make the mistake of confusing equality to physical strength. I don't really know any women that get into fights with men. Or fights with women for that matter. But I do know women that are equal to men. In fact I know some women who make all men look like total f**king jerks. It's not really a matter of equality. It's a matter of perspective. You might not find women equal in your world, but there are women that would kick your arse in so many other ways besides with their fists, or a gun come to it. Perhaps if more women posted here my point would be so easily proven given some of the BS men speak here! Rocket in England | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
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