| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Dean, A number of the shots struck his right arm. At least some of those wounds could have resulted from being shot from behind as his back was turned to the officer with his arms raised, and there is testimony to precisely that scenario. It's not difficult to image the just badly beaten officer losing his composure and shooting a fleeing thug. Is it? We don't know exactly how the tragedy unfolded. Blake, what is the most likely scenario for those wounds? That the only wounds from when he had his back to the cop were to his arms over his head? Is the cop shooting at center of mass? Then after being struck multiple time above center of mass, the "victim" turns around to then get shot more times center of mass? Far more likely is that the wounds in the arms happens while his arms were down facing the officer who shoots all shots at center of mass. This is especially true in that if he were facing away with his arms up, the first shot(s) would not need to be rushed, and would likely be pretty well on target, not feet above center of mass. Keep in mind that there was a video where a witness described the "victim" rushing at the cop and the cop opening fire. This video was immediately after the shooting, unlike the one with a witness claiming he was shot in the back that was taken after crime scene tape was up. Here's the deal... You shoot. Can you place a shot near center of mass in a situation where you aren't being rushed for the shot and keep that shot from going above the targets head? I think they claimed the distance to be about 25 feet. I feel pretty confident at that range that my first shot isn't going multiple feet high. You? | ||
| Blake |
The officer bad just had his left eye and face smashed in. Doubtful his aim was anything resembling accurate. But none of the wounds were anywhere near center of mass. Wounds were in the arm and head. One or two grazed the torso on the right side. Don't quote me; just going from memory. Post the coroner illustration if you can find it. We just don't know. There is as of yet no conclusive evidence. Personally, after the assault, the shooting was 100% justified. | ||
| Sifo |
Easy enough to find.  http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown -autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html Keep in mind that his arms were probably not as shown, so the grouping would need to be adjusted for either arm position of someone running, or someone holding their arms up. Someone running at the shooter would probably have their hands roughly in front of their center of mass. Still I agree, it's not a great grouping. None of the shots are great marksmanship. Does that go along with taking your time to shoot someone in the back or a high intensity fight as someone is rushing the shooter? Does the wound drawn on the right palm look like he was shot from the back with his hands up, or from the front with his hands reaching forward? Hold your hands up in a "surrender position" and ask yourself if you were now shot from behind, would a wound to the bicep be toward the inside of the bicep as depicted? Looking for conclusive evidence? While that would be nice, this isn't a made for TV murder mystery. No doubt that there is a bunch of evidence that we don't know about at this point. That evidence will most likely stack up on one side or the other. At this point however, it seems to be stacking up favoring the cops story from what I can see. I'm open to seeing how the evidence stacks up, but so far, I see nothing that would have me convicting the cop of murder. Far from it. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
but with 34,500 cops here in NYC . . . and if you look at the number of patrol hours worked, arrests and # of cases of police brutality . . . well, statistically it's far more like........ A fulltime UK police force of 135000 officers would render your statistic useless seeing as not one uniformed police officer could act alone in the way the officer did that shot Brown dead. Not one British uniformed officer would have the opportunity to act alone in discharging a firearm in similar circumstance. There are I believe several high profile cases of U.S. police brutality which have made headlines outside of America since Rodney King. Tell me, how many cases of UK police brutality have made the headlines in the U.S.? Statistically it might look like a microcosm of behaviour within a large force, but the suggestion is, police brutality is much more rife than people would believe. Such highlighted when cop shootings like that of Brown's happen. Rocket in England | ||
| Blake |
Cause shooting innocent people in Britain takes at least two cops? I guess killing folks like that isnt "brutality". Need I repost links to the news reports of British cops killing innocent people, one running away from them, the other helping a friend move, shot by a sniper who thought a table leg was a rifle? Exemplary police work? Really dumb to compare Britain to all U.S. states combined. Massive population difference for one, and widely varying state governments for another. Compare Britain to New England. Compare Britain to Texas. The point about cops always having a partner is a good one though. It's something I've always questioned. Bottom line thiugh is that anyone who brutally viciously attacks a law-abiding The tragedy could have been avoided had the thug and/or the officer behaved less rashly. The cop put himself in a terrible position against a bigger, stronger man. Big mistake. The outcome, though unfortunate, was justified, shot in the back or not. | ||
| Fb1 |
...it's a repetitive pattern of police brutality and American cops playing judge jury and executioner ...police brutality is much more rife than people would believe Sources, please. Thanks. | ||
| Fb1 |
The cop put himself in a terrible position against a bigger, stronger man. Big mistake. We don't know the details of how this incident went down, do we? | ||
| Court |
Guess where London cops are getting trained? | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Brown being shot dead by a cop and police brutality are separate issues. I was merely responding to Court's post, stating when cases like the Brown shooting happen, it seems apparent public are perhaps more conscious police brutality is more widespread than they might otherwise believe. Also, I wasn't making a direct comparison between our nations police forces. Simply stating it's all but impossible for a uniformed British cop to have been facing the same scenario where a uniformed U.S. cop shot a suspect dead. As you appear to understand, armed uniformed British cops don't work alone. Since the high profile cases here, Hillsborough tragedy, Steven Lawrence murder, De Menezes shooting, and several others, there's so much accountability now it would be all but impossible for endemic brutality to exists within the system. Cops can't fart in public these days without making an entry into their notebooks - or face losing their job if found out not to have done! Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
You're such a tease Court  London's Metropolitan Police force reportedly sent two supervisors to meet with NYPD officials for pointers on how to control crime earlier this year. Two! Just two! And then only "reportedly"  Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Sources, please. Thanks. Read it in the Sunday papers - or ask your fellow American's. I'm pretty sure had it not been a Brit making the comment, you wouldn't be asking Rocket in England | ||
| Fb1 |
I'm pretty sure had it not been a Brit making the comment, you wouldn't be asking Quite the contrary. You made some bold statements regarding police brutality here in America, presented as fact, and I simply wanted to review, for my own education, your source/s for such claims. Your nationality has nothing to do with it. Your statements seem to indicate that you believe Officer Wilson murdered Mike Brown. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I have been attacked in a manner similar to that in the still from the store scene by someone as large as the person in the video from the store below. I was unarmed. Had I been in the shoes of the shopkeeper that was attacked in the store in present times, the attacker would not have lived to meet his maker at the hands of law enforcement. It would NOT be "Stand My Ground" or "Murder of an unarmed teen" it would be simple self defense in the face of life threatening attack.  | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Quite the contrary. You made some bold statements regarding police brutality here in America, presented as fact, and I simply wanted to review, for my own education, your source/s for such claims. Your nationality has nothing to do with it. I did already Jerry. I made mention of Rodney King and many others since. I don't remember the individual victims names. You know what I'm talking about so let's not go down the denial route. There are many, but of course 'facts' seem to be a matter of opinion amongst American's when it comes to situations like this. I suspect there's two reasons. Social and the right to bear arms. Your statements seem to indicate that you believe Officer Wilson murdered Mike Brown. Please correct me if I'm wrong. He did. No doubt about it. Brown was identified. It's not like he could deny his presence. Was he armed - no. He could have been picked up later and brought to justice. The cop wasn't in any further danger. Two other cops were present. Brown was executed because it's likely the law will cover this shooting. I live in a country where everyone has a right to life. I believe America is no different in this respect. No one has the right to take a life. Here, not even police unless the circumstances are extreme, usually always a suspect will be armed and presenting a danger. It seems Brown fell within the remit it's ok to shoot him. Here it's likely all possible means would have been exhausted in an effort to apprehend him. I don't see it possible to claim the same human rights were extended to Brown. Now we can argue he deserved what he got. Point out how bad he'd been. Call into question his background and upbringing even. The circles he moved in and the company he kept. Even if they are not what is thought to be a reasonable existence, non present a right to make the Brown killing anymore justified. Should he be in jail. That's an entirely different matter and one Brown will not have the option of! Rocket in England | ||
| Sifo |
Brown was identified. It's not like he could deny his presence. Was he armed - no. He could have been picked up later and brought to justice. The cop wasn't in any further danger. Where do you get this BS? In what way was Brown identified? In what way was the cop not in further danger? Brown could have easily beaten the cop to death and walked away. How would they have known who to chase down as the cop killer? | ||
| Fb1 |
I did already Jerry. I made mention of Rodney King and many others since. One case of police brutality is all you've got to substantiate your claims that "...it's a repetitive pattern of police brutality and American cops playing judge jury and executioner" and "...police brutality is much more rife than people would believe..."??? You've stated an opinion, and I respect your right to do so, but you've hardly substantiated your claims. You know what I'm talking about so let's not go down the denial route. I can understand why you don't wish to discuss this further. There are many, but of course 'facts' seem to be a matter of opinion amongst American's when it comes to situations like this. Your "facts" are, so far, nothing more than your opinion. I suspect there's two reasons. Social and the right to bear arms. I don't know what you mean by "social," and I'm not sure how our right to bear arms relates to this conversation.
He did. No doubt about it. Please cite your evidence. Brown was identified. Not entirely sure what you mean by this, but it appears that, yes, Brown was identified by Officer Wilson as a suspect in a strong-arm robbery (a felony here in the States) that had just occurred a few minutes prior. It's not like he could deny his presence. What?? Was he armed - no. If you mean, was he armed with a firearm, how do you know this? Further, your hands can be deadly weapons. A person doesn't have to possess a firearm to have the ability to inflict fatal injuries to another. He could have been picked up later and brought to justice. Perhaps Officer Wilson was trying to do just that. The cop wasn't in any further danger. And what evidence do you base this on? Please cite your source/s. Two other cops were present. As far as we know, initially it was just Officer Wilson on scene. Brown was executed... That's an incredible statement to make. What is your evidence? ...because it's likely the law will cover this shooting. I hope our laws are followed to the letter in this case, regardless of the legal outcome WRT to Officer Wilson. I live in a country where everyone has a right to life. I believe America is no different in this respect. No one has the right to take a life. None of us know exactly what happened that led to the shooting of Brown. It's stretches belief to its absolute limit to believe that a cop coldly executed a man in broad daylight, surrounded by scores of potential witnesses, simply because the cop didn't like the color of the man's skin. Here, not even police unless the circumstances are extreme, usually always a suspect will be armed and presenting a danger. It seems Brown fell within the remit it's ok to shoot him. Again, we don't know what happened, other than Officer Wilson confronted two suspects of a strong-armed robbery that had just taken place. Beyond that, we're mostly speculating. Ask yourself: Why would a cop - ANY cop - shoot someone in public, in broad daylight, surrounded by potential witnesses, for a lark? Does that make any sense to you? Here it's likely all possible means would have been exhausted in an effort to apprehend him. I suspect Officer Wilson wanted to do just that. I suspect Brown had other intentions. I don't see it possible to claim the same human rights were extended to Brown. Is is possible, based on what we know, that Brown gave up that right? Now we can argue he deserved what he got. Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't. We don't know either way, do we? I hate to break our conversation down into so many talking points, but I don't see another way to do your reply any justice. Please cite your sources for your belief that Brown was executed. If that's your opinion, fine, but if it's more than that, please back it up with some verifiable facts. Thank you. | ||
| Blake |
FB, I'm going on the report that the officer was pushed back into his own squad car and overpowered. That wouldn't likely have happened if he'd not have put himself in a compromised position. One report said be lit up the tires backing up his car to confront the thugs after they refused to comply with his instruction to get off the street. Then stopped and opened the door right near the thugs. Then as be was exiting his car, violence. He should have given himself room to move. He didn't. Ending up pinned in his car getting beaten. Could have been avoided. | ||
| Blake |
Sean, Plain and simple, you're exaggerating AND being an ass. People in London are getting their heads hacked off in broad daylight. The cops took over ten minutes to show. But hey, there was more than one. London, the most violent city in Europe. | ||
| Fb1 |
Blake, this is a perfect example of the power of the media to shape a narrative. I'm going on the report that the officer was pushed back into his own squad car and overpowered. That wouldn't likely have happened if he'd not have put himself in a compromised position. Who is the original source of this information? Dorian Johnson, one of the fellas that just committed the strong-armed robbery. Johnson's credibility is near zero in this deal. He just committed a felony, his accounts of what happened are all over the map, and he was very likely coached (as were several other key "witnesses") by a certain Ferguson individual (see second link below) as to what to say in the moments directly after the shooting. Your "reports" as to what happened have been spoon-fed by the media as "The Truth," yet are not necessarily so. Also, we still have not heard Wilson's side of the story, nor have we been privvy to any evidence there may be to support his account of what happened. Andrew Breitbart famously said, "The media is EVERYTHING." How very, very true. One report said be lit up the tires backing up his car to confront the thugs after they refused to comply with his instruction to get off the street. This, of course, would have to be "reports" from at least two sources, one reporting the "lit up the tires," and one (the PD?) reporting re: the "get off the street" instructions. The credibility of the "witness" reporting the "lit up the tires" is in serious doubt; she's quite the character. You won't hear this in the mainstream media, of course; as usual, to try to find the truth you have to dig deeper via the internet. Then stopped and opened the door right near the thugs. Says WHO? Dorian Johnson. Then as be was exiting his car, violence. There's plenty of speculation, based on what we think we know, that violence was visited upon Wilson BEFORE he exited his car, up to and including a blow to his face and a battle for possession of his firearm, in which a round was apparently fired INSIDE his police vehicle. Again: We don't know exactly what happened, and we may NEVER know. All we can do is speculate, based on what evidence we can gather from afar. That said, basing your beliefs on what happened by what you're fed by the mainstream media is foolish, at best. I haven't had a chance to read this yet; it's the latest in a series of posts from CTH on the shooting of Mike Brown. They've done a pretty incredible job of collating information and postulating theories about what happened, just as they did during the Zimmerman lynching.
Source, more: http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/09/19/par t-i-debunking-the-myths-talking-points-and-agenda- driven-nonsense-around-the-mike-brown-shooting/ The Instigator – How One Saint Louis Man Originated The “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot” Mike Brown Controversy – And Created The “Eye Witness” Testimonials http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/08/29/the -instigator-how-one-saint-louis-man-originated-the -hands-up-dont-shoot-mike-brown-controversy-and-cr eated-the-eye-witness-testimonials/ | ||
| Gaesati |
A few of the many great things about the U.S. Is that generally at this point in the 21st century it is a country where the rule of law prevails, and the police and judiciary work to continue that rule. There are probably biased, corrupt and incompetent, police and members of the judiciary but the system works overall and works best when the media and small time politicians do not sensationalise things for their own ends. A vigilant trust in the justice system is also one of the strengths of Americans. | ||
| Akbuell |
"No one has the right to take a life." Morally appropriate, legally incorrect. At least here in America, and I suspect similar in the United Kingdom, given both entities have armed police officers. Years ago, I attended an in-service, continuing education class focused on non-descrimination. The instructor was a federal prosecutor. One statement she made has stuck with me ever since. "Police officers are the ONLY civil government personnel given the authority to take a life." Strong stuff, as not even judges and juries in states with the death penalty have that kind of individual power. There are of course rules concerning use of deadly force, and a great deal of scrutiny by the peoples governed after the fact, as there should be. No one has the right to take a life . . . If a person is actively involved doing great bodily harm,including the risk of death, to another person, should they be allowed to complete their task and then be taken into custody? If the victim of such activity is a loved one, and you had the tools/ability to intervene, would you? Even if such intervention carried the risk of death to the perpetrator? And finally, how much of the right to life has the perpetrator FORFEITED by taking such actions against another person? I think I will wait until sworn testimony, backed by force of perjury, and all physical evidence has been presented, before deciding where the shoe has fallen. Dave | ||
| Reepicheep |
Well said Gaesati. I deeply disagree with the current administrations views on how to solve some of the really difficult challenges we face. My fundamental objections with them are not that they achieved them, it is that they achieved many of them by abusing the rule of law, and lying to the American people. America can thrive and survive when we get the wrong answer to an important question. We cannot thrive and survive if we destroy the rule of law. | ||
| Blake |
FB, Was the officer pushed into his vehicle and assaulted therein? That's not been disputed, has it? Thus, the cop put himself in a compromised position that allowed that to happen. He should have been more careful and not done so. Regardless, the shooting was justified, even if it commenced from behind. My opinion. Regardless, it could have been avoided. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Blake, me being an ass? Seems odd seeing as you appear to grasp some points I made  An armed police officer got beaten by a very big young man whilst sat in his patrol car. This big young man a suspect in a most recent robbery. If I were a police officer with a gun I believe I would know after such a beating if I were to approach the big young man again it's only ever going to end up one of two ways. Either way the police officer would not sustain further injury to himself from behind his gun. The witness reports do not say Brown was heading back towards a battered police officer now pointing a gun at him to go finish him off. Yet Brown somehow got dead. I wonder if the police officer in such a battered state from the assailant was capable of making a wholly unbiased decision as to what might happen next if he presented said assailant with the business end of a gun. Surely a police officer in such a situation would wait for backup, or catch up with the big young man so easily identifiable later. A better decision might still see Brown alive today, whether he deserves in anyone's opinion to be or not. I suspect the word on the street immediately after Brown's shooting is a lot more telling than that of the media. My guess, and I do apologise if it offends the sensibilities of middle class America, is those people were on the street because they KNEW the shooting dead of Brown should have been avoided but the police officer chose not to avoid by way of confronting Brown with a gun. Then we get to the social divides. The right to bear arms when even a police officers actions in the line of duty become questionable. But hey, I just made all this shit up Jerry. What we do know for a fact is Brown is dead and a police officer killed him. How that happened is a matter of conjecture seeing as neither Brown nor the police officer are talking. But I know one thing for sure. Had a gun not been involved no one would be dead. As for police brutality. Google does a pretty good job if you can be bothered to do the research. I've enough on my plate with the Ukraine topic taking up my time. It's Friday and I'm off for a couple of Samuel Smith hand pulled ciders. A more worthwhile pursuit this evening believe you me  Rocket in England | ||
| Blake |
Slagging on cops in America was being an ass. | ||
| D_adams |
Sorry, I'll call bullshit on that one. You do NOT need a weapon to be lethal, the cop very well could have ended up dead at the hands of a KNOWN CRIMINAL that had not 10 minutes before bullied a store owner. | ||
| Aesquire |
One of the major worries of any LEO is getting stabbed by the girlfriend of the guy they are arresting for beating her half to death. No guns involved and it happens to police more often than getting shot at. Bet you a Euro that's true in England too. I'm waiting for facts. Not bs from CNN. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
>>>>>> I was drawing attention to the fact police brutality raises it's head on the international stage infrequently, and has done at least as far back as the RK beating. This in my eyes appears to be an endemic problem within the American police force. Apply this to the Brown shooting, in the sense an individual police officer made a decision upon his own, which if a wrong decision in the eyes of the (some) public, which is later supported by governing persons and bodies, this also could be seen by public (some) as police brutality. Need I go on..... Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
You do NOT need a weapon to be lethal, the cop very well could have ended up dead at the hands of a KNOWN CRIMINAL that had not 10 minutes before bullied a store owner. But IN THIS CASE Brown had not killed the police officer. In fact, Brown had left him very much alive, and it turns out, able to shoot a firearm with enough accuracy from distance he was able to kill Brown with a head shot. I believe if you take the incident as two separate ones you might begin to see where the cops actions could be seen as problematic. Rocket in England | ||
| Aesquire |
Your beliefs in this matter are informed by bad sources. You persist in believing folk who are fundamentally incapable of telling the whole truth since their purpose requires lies. I know I won't change your mind on this since you have bought into the propaganda to the point you are emulating Lord Haw Haw. |
