| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
Barf. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I am waiting for http://www.whitehouse.gov/stfu ;?/ | ||
| Hootowl |
That site is already up. It redirects to www.irs.gov | ||
| Sifo |
While small minds amuse, they provide little of tangible value. Very true. To night we can expect small minds to be telling us how awful it is that we have such a large income gap right now. Truth be told, I find that kind of bad too. Here's where we will differ though. We are going to be told that the 1%ers are the cause of all of this. We will be told how they are taking the wealth from the poor. As has to be pointed out all to often though, correlation is not causation. High paid workers do not cause low paid workers. Far from it. Lack of education, opportunity, and ambition cause low paid workers. No doubt we have a long way to go on education. We have been quite literally throwing money at that problem with no real effect. We need to reevaluate what we are doing on that front. The teachers unions do not represent the children being educated. Be very aware of that. This isn't a post about our education system though. Opportunity is something that we need to work on. We need to have good paying jobs available. How do we create these? Frank/Fred tells us that Obama paid for his, but he won't tell us what it was. Honestly, I have my doubts. Either way, government paying for good paying jobs just isn't a sustainable model. You need business owners who are free of government shackles to do what they do best. It's when a business is doing so well that the have a need to hire talented people that you get high paying jobs. There is just no other way to achieve that. Confiscation of wealth can not do that for you, and in fact limits the ability to do exactly that. Ambition is both a personal matter, and effected by opportunity. Ambition can be stifled where it has no opportunity. Opportunity allows ambition to flourish. That allows the ambitions to generate wealth for themselves in the form of high income. The problem is, not everyone is ambitious. There will always be those who just have no desire to work hard. That's OK, it's their choice. The problem is they have little value to an employer, and that is where you get a huge income gap. It's easy to close that income gap by restricting the ambitious, but that does nothing but hurt everyone. The current pResident has no understanding of any of this though. This is because he has never been close to those who actually make things happen in business. He learned falsehoods early in life and lead a careful life that never exposed himself to how business actually works. As pResident, he has carefully surrounded himself with those who are of the same mold. Because of this, the next three years offer little hope for improvement in our policies. Sorry for the rant. Good one Reindog... "What do you mean that wasn't pResident BO?" That one's getting passed around! | ||
| Court |
Fred . . . my yet to be enlightened friend . . . I need . . before you run off to craft more "where were the WMD prose" . . . to ask you one more question. If . . in terms of MINIMUM WAGE . . . more is better . . . as you and some of your liberal cohorts would suggest . . . .well . . then why is it that 96% of the folks proposing to raise the minimum wage don't pay (this is a choice . . . many folks DO PAY) the interns in their employ? Seems to send a bit of a mixed message, eh? Granted it's not a lie . . which would doubtless stand them in good stead with the current ruling class of buffoons . . .but it sure seems odd. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Anybody that has ever run a company, or managed payroll will tell you - raising the minimum is a JOB Killer. It is simple math. You have 10 employees making 8 an hour min.... ok new law, you now have to pay employees 10 min .... how many employees will you keep ? (because your other outlay costs haven't decreased - nor miraculously overnight have your sales increased....) so new liabilities without any new assets or revenue. In the private world - you loose two, maybe three employees; you increase the base pay of your supervisor and you off shore, outsource, part-time what you can .... ta- f'n - da. I have never seen it happen otherwise. (government is its' own vat of stupidity) | ||
| Sifo |
Simple math would tell you that the best case would be that you could pay 8 employees the $10. But's it doesn't stay simple for long, because you just lost 20% of your productive workforce. That's a huge hit to the companies income, which means you have to let people go. Even if it's only 1 or 2 more you are looking at a loss of jobs for 30-40%. That's huge! | ||
| Blake |
Or increase the price of your product/service accordingly. Some say that'll kill business. I dunno. I do know that a federal nation-wide minimum wage is dumb. Imagine if we had just one singular per-diem rate for the entire nation. Are there instances where people are exploited for very poor wages and full time work. Yes. To ignore that is just as dishonest as it is to pretend that most minimum wage earners are people wanting full time work and who are supporting a family. One can live on very little if need be. Share an apartment, eat basic, live on a tight budget... $8/hr will work with some left over. If you want to give folks more, then tip the fast food person at the window or the register. Stop telling everyone else that they need to pay more of their earnings to others. Stop purchasing anything marked "Made in China"! Fred, Either cease the trolling or take your leave. Thoughtful discussion is appreciated. You've sorely harmed the decorum here. If you're not here for the Moto related content first, then you don't belong here. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
One can live on very little if need be. Share an apartment, eat basic, live on a tight budget... $8/hr will work with some left over. That worked for me in the past. Tonight, he will undoubtedly announce a few executive orders..., (he will wave a magic wand) I would like to know how the unemployment extension going to be funded? Is there anything that can be de-funded to pay for it? How about defunding Planned Parenthood for 3-6 months... to keep families together and roofs over our heads...?? That seems like a good idea to me. We can keep our zippers up for three months folks can't we?? I would propose the above or a temporary de-funding of some other fed project to pay for the extension so many folks need at this time.... instead of waving a magic wand to pay for it. (Message edited by xdigitalx on January 28, 2014) | ||
| Fahren |
Blake, I agree with basically all of your post, but I would expand on it with a few other thoughts; maybe spin it off on another tangent. There is too much emphasis on giving businesses incentives so they can create jobs. In a true free market, any employer will want to pay as little as possible for as much as he can get (of goods, labor, etc). That's business as usual. I got a chuckle out of (I think it was) Chris Rock when he said, "paying a guy the minimum wage is really saying 'I'd pay you less if I could get away with it.' " There is not enough emphasis on encouraging a climate where our middle class is truly thriving, and creating the demand for goods and services that forces employers to hire - to meet increased demand. Increased demand is the only true creater of jobs. Why in the world would any sane business person want to create jobs if he or she did not need to, to meet an increased demand? Best to look at what will foster a thriving, vibrant, spending middle class. | ||
| Blake |
Freedom, same as always. The less free, the more bureaucracy, the worse for everyone. Crony capitalism (CORRUPTION), kills freedom. Funneling trillions through DC is a big part of the problem. On average, over half of state revenue now comes mostly via the federal govt. That ought to outrage anyone not thrilled with Marxism. | ||
| Blake |
XD, Giving money to people to not work for so long is counter-productive. I know far too many cases where that is abused. People happy to stay unemployed so long as the checks keep coming. If they really can't find work and need help, there are better ways to do so. Getting onto a level trading field with China would be something our fed govt should be doing. Too many are in the pockets of those who profit from our Death by China. | ||
| Fredfast |
"Fred, Either cease the trolling or take your leave. Thoughtful discussion is appreciated. You've sorely harmed the decorum here. If you're not here for the Moto related content first, then you don't belong here." Blake. For your information I find Badweb a great resource for information when I need it to keep my Lightning in good form. Before your post I had decided to discontinue my posting on this chat thread because I no longer wish to be involved with the hate shown by most of the entrants here. To disagree with the President is one thing but some of the posters here are one step away from having the Secret Service knock on their doors. If that's the type of "decorum" you wish to foster that's your business and responsibility. By referring to me as a troll, you obviously agree with them. I no longer wish to be a part of it. | ||
| Reepicheep |
So true Blake... that's where Republicans (as opposed to conservatives) seem to have gone wrong.
And Democrats have taken crony capitalism to staggering new levels (cough*healthcare.gov*cough). My current thinking on the best pragmatic approach to the problem is that we structure things to give as much freedom as possible, but also structure them to give a near brutal level of transparency for public officials and large corporations. Draw the line to try and protect the privacy of private individuals where possible, but when privacy jeopardizes freedom we give up privacy to protect freedom. Public officials get very little privacy... just like a soldier volunteers to risk his or her life to serve their country, a public official volunteers to give up their privacy to serve their country. So if we ever *do* get real journalism again, the transparency will balance the potential abuses of freedom. Even in national security. Maybe the NSA can still do much of what they do. But we have to be 100% honest and open about what it is we are doing (even though it will be a disadvantage... it is another cost of freedom and justice and well worth the price we will pay). | ||
| Hootowl |
Fred, you registered a few days ago, and every single one of your posts has been in this thread. That doesn't sound like a guy who frequents badweb, and happened to get drawn into a political discussion. It is apparent that you created this screen name solely for the purpose of posting in this thread and calling other members racists. That's the behavior of a troll. If you don't wish to be referred to as one, do not act the part. And I'm pretty sure that no one has threatened the life of the president. Calling for his removal from office is not a criminal offense, though it could garner unwarranted attention from the IRS. Jeff | ||
| Sifo |
Or increase the price of your product/service accordingly. Sure that can be done. I was just doing the "simple" math based on the hypothetical proposes where you don't magically have new revenue coming in. Yes it will to some degree alleviate the problem, but as pointed out, it will reduce demand for your product/service. It makes sense to balance that in when looking at the real world. It's one way to balance demand with your new reduced production capabilities. In the end you have customers paying more for less with less people employed. So to the real world where pResident BO is raising the federal minimum wage (I think it's to $8.00 per hour), just exactly how many federal employees are there who are working for less than $8.00 per hour? Are these full time jobs? I'm willing to bet that we are talking about an extremely small number of federal workers. | ||
| Fredfast |
"Fred, you registered a few days ago, and every single one of your posts has been in this thread." And tell me how you keep track of all the posts that I read regarding my Lightning. How do you discount that. As a matter of fact the Lightning forum is bookmarked, this chat thread isn't. Narrow minds. | ||
| Reindog |
Fred/Frank: Your biggest problem is that you are a liar and then come on this thread with six-shooters a-blazing claiming to be someone else. You might not think that is a big deal but credibility is of paramount importance on Badweb as well as in one's personal life. Your lack of credibility says says volumes about you. You contribute nothing but hurl epithets at virtually every poster with the sole intention of throwing stinkbombs to clog up this thread. That became apparent quickly. Many of us were more than happy to debate you but that is not your intention or maybe you are incapable of debate. If you wish to participate, your first step would be to admit that you are posting under false credentials. You are an Obama supporter which is your absolute right. Most here are not so you could provide some insight as to why he is a good Executive. Until you come clean, my only alternative is to view you and treat you as a troll. Trolls do not belong here. | ||
| Reindog |
Fred/Frank: You have posted 62 times since assuming the fredfast username on Jan.18. All 62 posts have been in this thread. Do you have other usernames that we are unaware of? I presume that is a violation of Badweb policy. You are epitheting on thin ice, dude. Maybe you should ask God for forgiveness. Just a thought. (Message edited by reindog on January 28, 2014) | ||
| Fredfast |
Mad Dog - Go get your rabies shot | ||
| Reindog |
OK, have it your way. I kinda figured you had nothing in you but a Tourette's Syndrome response. (Message edited by reindog on January 28, 2014) | ||
| Sifo |
Fred/Frank: Your biggest problem is that you are a liar and then come on this thread with six-shooters a-blazing claiming to be someone else. You might not think that is a big deal but credibility is of paramount importance on Badweb as well as in one's personal life. Your lack of credibility says says volumes about you. You contribute nothing but hurl epithets at virtually every poster with the sole intention of throwing stinkbombs to clog up this thread. That became apparent quickly. Many of us were more than happy to debate you but that is not your intention or maybe you are incapable of debate. If you wish to participate, your first step would be to admit that you are posting under false credentials. You are an Obama supporter which is your absolute right. Most here are not so you could provide some insight as to why he is a good Executive. Until you come clean, my only alternative is to view you and treat you as a troll. Trolls do not belong here. And then Fred/Frank had to prove your point. | ||
| Reindog |
I refuse to watch the SOTU address by the pResident but my wife did and saw something interesting with the tracking meters. Throughout the entire speech, Independents tracked Republicans with a negative trend line. I AM watching the GOP response by Rep. Rogers. Independents are tracking the Republicans with an very positive trend line. This bodes very poorly for the Democrat Party with the Fall elections as the Independent vote is increasingly important. Watch the Leftist Statists attempt to Palinize Rep. Rogers. | ||
| Aesquire |
.......'I'd pay you less if I could get away with it.' " Well, yeah. duh. Labor is expensive. You pay people the going rate based on competition & regulation. Entry level, low skill positions have to be cheap. It directly affects the cost of making a product, and that directly affects the cost to the consumer. I'm not talking politics, here, it's math. If I pay my people 5 bucks & you pay yours 3, everyone is going to want to work for me. I get the best. OTOH If my prices are higher, ( and if we make the same product, they will be, unless I'm smarter than you. ) people will want to buy your stuff. I go out of business. ( or lower my wages & costs ) That's the bare bones of it. From a political point.... 1. there exists, today, In the US, various minimum wage levels, and the results are pretty much as you'd expect from the math. There are other factors in cost of living and relative affluence. Location location location. Still, I'd argue that "A" minimum wage, has a certain philosophical appeal as a social program. It can be an argument that it's inflation insurance, protecting you from the natural ebb and flow of supply, demand & wages. And, it works, sorta. It's inflationary and worse, it's the perfect political football. It's freaking traditional. Goes back at least to Rome. Just food for thought. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Higher minimum wages are going to make automation and off shoring *very* attractive. Raising the minimum wage will get fewer people more money, and put a lot of people out of work forever. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
I may be wrong but... I thought the minimum Wage hike is for federal employees, private market can stay where it is....for now. But seemed like the potus hinted they should all follow the fed standard. | ||
| Chauly |
It is, and supposedly there are practically NO Federal contract workers at the minimum wage level, so it's pure (and bad) theater. | ||
| Chauly |
My personal experience with the minimum wage had to do with our restaurant. When we opened in 2005, the MW was $5.15/hr. Each person we started at $5.25, and after a 90-day probationary period, it rose to $6.50 or $7.00, depending on the position and the speed at which they learned. After two years, we found that just to attract labor in our town worth a flip, we had to offer $6.50 to start, but then we could be way more selective about who we hired to begin with, saving time and aggravation. Later that year, the restaurant had no one making under $6.75, and then the MW went to $7.25 in 2009. We obviously had to give everyone a raise, getting no additional productivity in return. (There was also a payroll tax and FICA increase at that time that added insult.) Now we had a choice: be evenhanded with everyone, or re-establish the upward mobility goals that we had before. The latter meant that we would have to let someone go to afford the incentive plan. Bear in mind that at any given time, the place required three people to run it. You can't just fire them and work the other two harder, so you cut hours. Now the students/spouses etc. don't take home enough cash to accomplish what they had planned on, so they quit, and you lose a good employee. It was our own death spiral, and we couldn't raise our prices much without losing a lot of business (another story...:-() Small ball, I know, but the ultimate result was having a few really good employees working very hard, and a couple of part-timers that didn't give a flip for $7.25/hr. As Brian said: JOB-KILLER We closed in 2010 after 5 years of trying. Cause of Death: Tired of someone else telling us what we could or could not do. Sad, really. | ||
| Hootowl |
"And tell me how you keep track of all the posts that I read regarding my Lightning" What does that have to do with what I posted? "It is apparent that you created this screen name solely for the purpose of posting in this thread" Lurk all you want. Creating an account for the sole purpose of denigrating other board members (you've done nothing else, despite repeated requests for you to engage and tell us why you support the president and his actions) is the epitome of trollish behavior. You should take no offense at being labeled as such. It was obviously your intent. | ||
| Reindog |
Any questions?  |
