| Author | Message | ||
     Just_ziptab |
I had a 9 volt battery blow apart,sitting in a wood drawer...all by it's self,not touching/shorted out on anything... Weird! The old 9 volt batteries had a stack of 6 pellet cells in them. This one was packed with 6 AAAA batteries......../ | ||
| Hootowl |
"Did you watch the video with the cell phone?" Yes, I did. Has the battery of an electric car every spontaneously exploded like that? I've never heard of an instance. Enlighten me. And even if it did (a massive electrical arc is not the same as an exothermic chemical reaction) it doesn't wash the area with flammable liquid. | ||
| Nik |
Batteries can explode or catch on fire. I'd more worried lead acid batteries exploding than lithium though, fire and acid everywhere?! Lithium has its issues too, but they can be largely mitigated by cell monitoring and protection circuitry. Cheap disposable consumer electronics like cell phones and many laptops do not have the same level of protection circuitry as the Teslas. In all reports I've seen the cars alerted the driver to a problem and to pull over immediately giving them time to exit safely. Also the battery in that cell phone is probably Lithium Polymer, the most energy dense and thus most volatile, not Lithium Ion like Tesla uses. How many Camrys or Civics have caught on fire in the last 5 weeks? Probably more than 3. | ||
| Aesquire |
If you have enough power stored to move a car at "normal" speeds in a space small enough to have passengers, the energy density is high enough to be hazardous. Gas, Batteries, diesel, CNG, Hydrogen, Antimatter.......( not yet, not yet ) all have hazards. Cut off switches, and proper fire dept. training are already in progress. Most Emergency folk who pay attention are aware of the battery problem. I rather like the Tesla, but, like a Bugatti, it's not a toy for me. ( maybe if I win the Lotto..... but I'd probably spend the money on other toys ) But hey, feel free to argue which is worse. A battery pack in violent melt down. Burning gasoline from a ruptured tank. Natural gas fumes. ( possible explosion ) Hydrogen filling the ceiling volume of a garage and infiltrating upward. ( ditto ) | ||
| Sifo |
Has the battery of an electric car every spontaneously exploded like that? I've never heard of an instance. Enlighten me. And even if it did (a massive electrical arc is not the same as an exothermic chemical reaction) it doesn't wash the area with flammable liquid. Well, like I pointed out, about 14 seconds into this video. OK, it's just an electrical arc. Of course gas doesn't explode either. For gas to provide an explosion, you need a pressure vessel, but then you need the right air fuel mix and you don't tend to get that in a sealed container. You have to rupture the container to get the air mixed in, and then you don't have a pressure vessel. Flammable liquid, or molten metals and chemicals?  | ||
| Hootowl |
Like in the Hillary shot above, people died. That's the difference. The "explosion" in the video above happened long after the fire started. The occupants of the vehicle had plenty of time to get out. When a crash ruptures a fuel tank, and there is a resulting fire, the people in the car usually have little time to escape. How many people have died in an electric car fire? How many people have died in a gasoline car fire? | ||
| Sifo |
The occupants of the vehicle had plenty of time to get out. When a crash ruptures a fuel tank, and there is a resulting fire, the people in the car usually have little time to escape. Well that statement is just full of unsubstantiated assumptions. If you are pinned in, or unconscious, you are screwed. There's also lots and lots of news stories where people get out of gas cars before they go up in flames. How many people have died in an electric car fire? How many people have died in a gasoline car fire? Well, let's see how much of an apples to oranges comparison we can possibly make! How many miles have been driven with gasoline cars in the US vs. how many miles have been driven with electric (even worse, modern electric batteries with very high energy content that can be quickly released) cars? If you put them both on the same bar chart, you won't even see the bar for the electrics. | ||
| Hootowl |
Have there been any? Ever? | ||
| Sifo |
I don't have data for either vehicle type. The comparison will get even worse though when you start to adjust for the type of driving done with electrics. Electrics are used far more as commuter cars. That will tend to limit the speed of the vehicles that they are in accidents with. How many miles of expressway driving have been racked up by electrics? | ||
| Hootowl |
All valid points. Thought exercise: A 9 volt battery (assume lithium ion or similar) is sitting on the table in front of you next to a box of gasoline of a similar size. Which one do you think would injure you the most if it exploded? | ||
| Sifo |
All valid points. Thought exercise: A 9 volt battery (assume lithium ion or similar) is sitting on the table in front of you next to a box of gasoline of a similar size. Which one do you think would injure you the most if it exploded? Well that's obvious! It's the 9 volt battery. The gasoline has no way to ignite all on it's own. Have there been any? Ever? I won't be the first.  BTW, the voltages in electric vehicles are WAY more than 9 volts. Usually up in the hundreds of volts. Maybe lighter fluid would make a better comparison to a 9 volt battery. My reasoning doesn't change though. | ||
| Hootowl |
Yeah, I know. In NO WAY am I saying electric car batteries are benign. I just think they're less dangerous that a tank full of gasoline, which is to say, pretty darn safe the vast majority of the time. And thank you, by the way, for a thoroughly interesting and enjoyable discussion. You're one of the few around here I can have a lengthy back and forth with without someone getting offended, which is certainly not ever my intent. Jeff | ||
| Sifo |
Yeah, I know. In NO WAY am I saying electric car batteries are benign. I just think they're less dangerous that a tank full of gasoline, which is to say, pretty darn safe the vast majority of the time. I never felt too concerned about when I had a Pinto, or my VW bug way back when, or my brother's unsafe at any speed Corvair and honestly wouldn't worry about frying in an EV either. I'd be far more concerned with the real likely hood that I would be crushed to death by some soccer mom texting her husband from her giant sized SUV. Time will tell if the fires continue, or if this is an odd statistical spike that will even out with time. I'm sure they have had some engineers review their work as a result of three fires in a few weeks though. And thank you, by the way, for a thoroughly interesting and enjoyable discussion. You're one of the few around here I can have a lengthy back and forth with without someone getting offended, which is certainly not ever my intent. Back at you. If you're going to get your panties wadded over this, I hate to think what will happen when life decides to kick you in the balls. Besides that, even when my overall opinion isn't changed, I seem to learn new stuff in these sorts of discussions. If I get offended, I know the way off the interwebs.  | ||
| Hootowl |
Panties definitely not bunched. But if you don't come around soon, it'll be handbags at dawn!  | ||
| Sifo |
Hootowl, you ignorant slut! I hope you're old enough for that to be funny. | ||
| Hootowl |
Yeah, that was when snl was still funny. | ||
| Froggy |
Another advantage the Tesla has over others is the design of the cells. Tesla uses thousands of tiny individual cells to help prevent issues like thermal runaway and fires from occurring. The old Tesla Roadster had 6800 cells in its battery pack, my understanding is the S model is greater.   | ||
| Aesquire |
I like the Tesla, and dislike the Fisker, based partly on the attitudes of the CEO's & companies. The Tesla contributes to manned space travel, the Fisker to fake Environmentalism. I do give Fisker points on the Seriously awesome marketing on the eco-freak market with uber rare prehistoric leaves or something like that..... Reclaimed wood from 300 years underwater in Michigan, from California forest fires, and naturally fallen trees! Solar Roof! Humane Leather! or Post Industrial Fibre! It's the most Holier Than Thou car you can buy. Period!!!! You can spit on Bugatti Owners, and Mock Ferrari Owners! Prius? How common. Incredible marketing. Annoys the crap out of me. Sheer cussedness and prejudice aside, BOTH companies have First Responder links on their home page. http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/owners-menu/docs/2 012_Fisker_Karma_First_Response_Info_Guide_and_Hig h_Voltage_Safety_materials_with_Card.pdf http://www.teslamotors.com/firstresponders Both are pretty comprehensive, and you can see a lot of neat engineering detail. Suggested reads. ( mandatory for first responders, and sometimes, that's me. ) On the combustibility of gasoline, it's vapor pressure makes stunts like the idiot gif above really stupid. Explosions take place with Gasoline when a spray of fuel flashes and makes a vapor cloud that goes boom. No container needed. I have limited personal experience with car fires in high speed accidents, but I know some of the professional racing crew guys. The big fireballs in race accidents is ruptured, spraying, vaporizing fuel. I'm not saying a gas tank won't explode, ever, and it's one reason you shouldn't rush into a burning car. ( duh ) On Batteries. | ||
| Hootowl |
Was someone under the impression that this conversation was about parked cars spontaneously exploding? I'm talking about freshly wrecked cars, with people still inside. A battery, if it's going to go into meltdown, and arc it's metal bits to vapor, is not going to leak flammable fluid under the car, and then engulf the entire car. The fire will be pretty well contained to the battery compartment for long enough for the people inside to get out. This seems pretty simple to comprehend, and why I've never heard of anyone dying in an electric car fire caused by the battery exploding. If you can find an instance of that occurring, please post it. | ||
| Crackhead |
How many people actually believe the speed that the Tesla were traveling at the time of the incidents? There are a few around here and the only time they are not driving at warp speed is when they are stuck going slow in traffic. I would suspect the guy that hit the trailer hitch was traveling 90+ and the guy that went thru the concert wall and then hit a tree was traveling over 100mph. These crashed are happening as speeds that most production cars do not see on a normal basis or ever. All of the comparisons need to be against other Super cars. | ||
| Firemanjim |
All my years on the fire dept I never saw a gas tank explode like we see on Hollywood movies so much.It is the vapor that burns, remember. And was alot more worried about things like 5 mph bumpers and those lovely hood and hatchback struts--- now they will explode throw stuff a long way! And the older VW buses would backdraft! And then along came airbags! | ||
| Sifo |
Looks like the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has decided it's worth investigating what's up with the Tesla S. U.S. opens Tesla battery fire probe
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| Froggy |
A new software update will increase the ride height of the suspension temporarily to reduce chances of debris puncturing the battery shield http://gigaom.com/2013/11/19/in-the-wake-of-fires- tesla-releases-suspension-software-calls-for-inves tigation/ | ||
| Froggy |
You are still 4 and a half times more likely to experience a gasoline fire than a Tesla fire. http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/mission-tesla
Tesla requested it, not the NHTSA | ||
| Sifo |
Well...
So the government says they wanted to investigate, Tesla says they asked them to investigate. Who are you going to believe? You might be right on that one. You are still 4 and a half times more likely to experience a gasoline fire than a Tesla fire. First, you misstate the facts. Not all fires on gas powered vehicle are gas fires. In fact electrical fires are quite common. Secondly, the data on the Tesla is VERY limited, both in numbers produced and time in service. According to the miles accumulated and vehicles sold, the average miles per vehicle is only about 7,XXX some miles. Not exactly a long history to spout off about. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Just an Electrical Arc ! Hmmm Guys ever hear of a Plasma Cloud? Plasma isn't just on Star Trek the next Gen. Look up Hypertherm plasma cutters Plasma streams cut through any thing electrically conductive a Plasma Cloud will melt EVERYTHING it touches depending on how long the cloud persists. | ||
| Froggy |
No I didn't. "average of one fire per at least 6,333 cars, compared to the rate for gasoline vehicles of one fire per 1,350 cars. By this metric, you are more than four and a half times more likely to experience a fire in a gasoline car than a Model S"
For the Roadster model, the average is bout 16.5k miles per car (just under 40 million miles combined on around 2400 cars), I am looking for some reliable data for the S model, but that average should be quickly shooting up due to their wider availability and increased practicality over the Roadster. Everything I see still points to it being safer, both of fire risk and passenger protection for collisions in general. It is still the safest car ever tested, period. | ||
| Sifo |
No I didn't. Ummm.... You said gasoline fires. You are still 4 and a half times more likely to experience a gasoline fire than a Tesla fire. You did. For the Roadster model... It's the Tesla S being discussed. I Roadster data figured into your above misstatement too. | ||
| Froggy |
Right, and I didn't misstate any facts.  If we even go back to the link I posted on the last page, it said 5x more likely for a fire, now factoring the two more fires since that drops to 4.5x Obviously if the trend continues that number will be lower. If you could, please source me on your numbers for the S, there are a boatload of articles out there but I am not finding whatever you did. I'm not doubting you, I just like to see them for myself. Like I said I can only find Roadster numbers ( http://www.teslamotors.com/enthusiasts/millions-of -miles + 2490 built according to http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2012/07/25/i nvestors-hit-accelerator-despite-tesla-q2-revenue- miss/ ) | ||
| Sifo |
Right, and I didn't misstate any facts. Other than equating all vehicle fires to be gasoline fires. Many, if not most vehicle fires are electrical in nature. I just used data posted earlier in this thread. I have a feeling that some of it may not really be accurate for the S model. An average of around 7K miles on a model that's only been out for a year sound reasonable for a typical car. For a car with limited range, it's questionable. I probably have it wrong and the real figure is probably much lower. Figure the older ones, driving every working day with a 40 mile commute would have about 8K miles. New ones, well, they're new. On average? 4K? Factor in that this is a feel good car for rich folk that almost certainly have other rides in their 3(+) sized garage, and hopefully you can see where I'm going with this. The reality is that there's very little data on these. |
