| Author | Message | ||
     Mtnmason |
So it's time to add a decent 'reach out and touch something' firearm to my small but growing collection. I am about to relocate to a place where I can set up a decent rifle/pistol range (about 150-200 yds) so I am exploring options. A little background - I have a fair amount of experience with handguns, shottys, and small-bore rifles. I've never cared too much for venison, thus I've never truly needed anything bigger than what is required to take out rabbits, squirrels and other veggie garden invaders. I have shot 30-30, 30-06, .223 (AR) and .308 (bolt). I am largely basing my decision around availability of ammo. I consider anything that is currently on the shelf at wally world to be available. I am absolutely certain that when the current shortage is mitigated (fingers crossed), it will only be a matter of time before we see another run on ammo. Essentially, I want I rifle in a less popular yet easy to find chambering. Here is what I am currently considering based on availability: .243 .270 7mm-08 .30-06 .300 WSM I realize that covers a pretty broad range, but again, it's what is available currently. I would prefer to be on the larger end of that spectrum but would not rule out a sub .30 cal option if someone can convince me of its merits. Price is, of course, a consideration. As fun as it may be to shoot .416 rigby - my wallet would probably disapprove as much as my right shoulder. Also, in the likeliness that I get a reloading setup, I would like something with readily available components as well as overall ease of reloading (i.e. not blowing up in my face). I understand that primers have become scarce but this is something I'm considering for down the road. I will primarily be shooting at steel and paper so terminal ballistics is only of marginal importance. Thanks in advance for any advice offered. | ||
| Blake |
For 200 yds, any of the above is just fine. For longer range shooting, out to say 600 yds, all but the .243 are well up to the task. I think you need to better define your requirements. Maximum lethal range, size of target, penetration capability... The .30-06 is tough to beat. Lots of different bullet weights and forms available. I wish Remington would make some more of those 55 gr "Accelerator" sabot rounds. | ||
| Tootal |
Once upon a time I was going to get into silhouette shooting. After lots of reading I decided on a 7mm-08. The 7mm has the best ballistic efficiency of any round. Now you just need to know how much are you going to shoot it. 7mm-08, 7mm Mauser, or 7mm magnum. For the long distance shooter the magnum would be best but if you're shooting competition the 08 is your choice. If in between, well the Mauser will do. I ended up with a 7mm-08 Savage 110S with a Leopold 12X silhouette scope. It took 5 shots to see paper at 200 yards. I then shot a 5 shot group of 1-1/16" at 200 yards with hand loads. My shooting buddy was furious!! I think lucky bastard was my new name!! You pulled it out of the box and shot that you lucky... | ||
| Tootal |
Oh I see you mentioned a 270 which is basically a 7mm-06. If memory serves it's hotter than the Mauser and under the Magnum. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
I completely agree with Tootal on this one. I have owned and shot all the medium and large magnums right up to 30-378 Weatherby and now with age I have toned down and am working up loads for a nice Ruger American in 7mm-08 that, right out of the box is shooting under 3/4" @ 100 meters. I fully expect to do better with handloads after a little experimenting. The silhouette shooters "discovered" 7mm-08 back in the 60-70's and regularly took down steel plates to 600 meters. It is a very efficient cartridge and highly consistent. Its no 50 cal. but it does a good job with plenty of energy to those ranges and with much less recoil then the big magnums. And with a nice range finder scope you can make fairly easy fast adjustments for any reasonable range. For my "urban" sniper duties I load a Sierra 130g. BTHP match bullet at just 2600 fps. No recoil and its remarkably accurate to 200 meters. For longer ranges I would use Sierra's 160 BTHP match at maximum velocity. I'm lovin' the 7mm-08 and my Ruger American rifle. (Message edited by Bob_thompson on May 19, 2013) (Message edited by Bob_thompson on May 19, 2013) | ||
| Vtpeg |
I've had a model 70 in 7mm-08 for 10 or so years now. Great easy shooting gun. Set for woods hunting @100yd max with 140 gr store bought ammo. No problem finding ammo either. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Most of those are based on the same case blank as the 30 6 I shoot long range tight little groups in a survival situation is not as important as rounds down range. Try your hand at the Rattle battle at Camp Perry during the DCM matches. I have squared all my targets @ the 600yrd line 72 rounds on target @ at 600 in 70 seconds. 3 mag changes All of those calibers are very good but I still want standard calibers I can pick up and use I can use the emptys to load some of those other calibers for my other guns. | ||
| Etennuly |
A 30-30 is a great rifle, but not exotic enough for a lot of shooters. It is kind of the utility rifle of hunting guns in as much as a .38 pistol is the utility pistol that few aspire to own anymore. I have taken deer with mine from 30 yards and up to 120 yards. I never got a decent chance for a shot at one further out. Sighted in at 100 yards, it'll drop about four inches from 200 yards out. It still carries enough punch to put a hole clean through a water filled coke can and a sheet of cardboard and then six inches into a dirt mound.  | ||
| Rick_a |
Of those listed 30-06 has my vote. It's probably the most versatile rifle caliber in history. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Add 6.5x55 to your list. I don't know if they still make sense, but it used to be you could get a Swedish Mauser for $79 to $130. I imagine they are pricier these days. Though if you go that route, you probably want to think about a simple reloading setup. You will probably get at least 4 reloads out of the brass before the neck starts cracking. Not for everyone, but worth thinking about. Those Mauser's are remarkable little rifles. If I were you, I'd also consider a Mosin Nagant. Not because they are great (they aren't), but because they are good (they are). Then buy sealed cans of 500+ rounds of ammo at a time. And even though it is a tactical gun, consider the AK-74 or something like it. That ammo is still available now on the shelf at my local rural king, and it's a great cartridge and (much to my suprise) a great little rifle. I didn't want to like it, but couldn't help myself once I got to shoot one. Rifles are a bit different than pistols, at least for me. People that shoot pistols tend to shoot a lot of ammo. But rifles, particularly something like .308, .303, .30/06, .30/.30 etc... are a lot more work to shoot. 50 rounds through a pistol, and I'm just warming up. 50 rounds through a rifle? Um, anyone else ready to go get something for lunch yet?  (That's where you see the difference between 7.62x39 (AK) and .223 and the "big guns"... shooting the AK is like a pistol round, I could shoot it all day long and still be smiling (until I add up how much I spent on ammo anyway)). (Message edited by reepicheep on May 20, 2013) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
30-06 is the only local ammo with any affordability or depth in stock your results may vary it is why I off loaded the other rifle back in November - someone has a very nice 308 and is also committed to putting lead down range if shiate comes to shove. ..... and I believe it does soon. | ||
| Slaughter |
You should consider reloading. It's a different spin on shooting sports. Many cartridges started as wildcats based on 30.06 or 308 and necked down. If you don't mind doing a little fiddling, you can end up with some really GREAT shooting ammo. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Cityxslicker: "30-06 is the only local ammo with any affordability or depth in stock" "your results may vary" I pretty much agree on that Brian but, I found quite a bit of loaded factory 7mm-08 at Midway and all the brass, bullets & powder I needed locally except the Sierra match bullets which I got from Midway. 30-30 & 30-06 is still the most widely available ammo around. Even small town gas stations carry those. Surprising though how often there will be a box of 7mm-08 that nobody has bought at those places also. | ||
| Kyrocket |
I wasn't going to say anything but Reep brought up the Mosin. I picked mine up (get the hex receiver) for $115 out the door with the (useless but cool) bayonet, sling, tools, and a couple of ammo pouches. A sealed spam can of 440 rounds (7.62X54) run me $98. You can get the case of 880 even cheaper per round but I didn't have the cash on me and storing a case of 7.62 takes up space. This being said, it won't meet your specification of readily available at Wallyworld. I pick mine up at Buds, always in stock, and at Sportsman's Warehouse when the shelves aren't picked clean. | ||
| Strokizator |
Years ago I was looking for a medium bore rifle and looked at 270, 280 & 7mm. I settled on the 7 based solely on the extensive array bullet selections available vs. the other rounds. I bought a Weatherby in 7mm magnum that could really reach out there. These days I'd buy the 7mm-08. | ||
| Tootal |
Most of those are based on the same case blank as the 30 6 The 270 is a necked down 30-06. The 7mm-08 is a necked down 308. You didn't mention the 308 but that's also a very versatile round if you decide on a 30 caliber. | ||
| Tootal |
A 30-30 is a great rifle, but not exotic enough for a lot of shooters. It is kind of the utility rifle of hunting guns in as much as a .38 pistol is the utility pistol that few aspire to own anymore. I heard that's what moonshiners like to use!  | ||
| Teeps |
Back in the "day", I had a Remington 700 in .243 caliber. Good varmint gun, light recoil. I could, consistently, shoot quarter size (or smaller, 3 shot) groups @ 150 yards, all day long. I found that, ultimate accuracy demanded custom loads. At the time (late '70s) it was cheap to reload. Sorry to say, I sold the rifle (kick myself for that) and do not have any info with regard to the loads I was using. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
love my 38, with the special random surprise 357 in a chamber It makes a hell of a racket at the range - you would think these people have never seen a revolver. keep your powder dry and your barrels loaded f-em, every last f'n one of them. | ||
| Reepicheep |
30/30 is a great gun to carry, but not much fun to use. Light weight means high recoil. I also was not particularly comfortable from a safety standpoint... Lever action meant no trigger lock possible, can easily (and accidentally) go from uncocked / half cocked (safety) to fully cocked without you realizing it (walking through woods, climbing trees, etc). And the tube fed magazine means if it is dirty you can take a gun you verified was unloaded, cycle the action, and have a loaded gun. I saw this happen first hand (old gun badly maintained and a round stuck in the tube. Gun was set down, and I heard a faint "click". Cycled action, and sure enough, a magic round materialized in the cahamber). All these problems can be overcome with care and attention. But at some point you have to decide "why bother". Though a lever action in a large pistol caliber, like a .44, would be pretty cool if you also had the matching revolver. That would take at least one problem out of the equation (recoil). I disagree about .38 being a caliber nobody wants anymore. People want them, its just that if you have the choice, why not get the .357 that shoots both? But I bet the majority of the people with .357's, if you told them they had to give up .357 or .38, they would take the .38. Now the .38 S&W, as fired from an old webly, I'd agree *that* is perhaps falling out of favor (Try finding bullets for reloading them!). | ||
| Akbuell |
Can't really help much here; Kinda like you prefer a red motorcycle w/black trim, I prefer white/white. Having used a .243,.308, and 30-06 - All decent choices, with different strengths and weaknesses. .243 can be really accurate, decent choice of bullets, probably smaller case means less $ per shot. .308 and 30-06 all of the above; slightly larger case means more $ per shot. IMO, if only shooting paper, go .243. Anything else, bigger bullet dia are less fussy, more energy at longer ranges. And the differences are measured in small parts of an inch. With an off-the-shelf M-14 and iron sights, I can keep someone Real Busy at 600m with iron sights. Pretty much whatever you like/are most comfortable with. | ||
| 86129squids |
Here's something that will blow your minds... http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/05 /15/184223110/new-rifle-on-sale | ||
| D_adams |
Yeah, one MILE. | ||
| Aesquire |
First... Gun geeks, like Computer geeks, love to argue over tiny little differences. Thousands of an inch/second, Velocity/Frequency, and most of all, where the switches are and how they work. All this stuff makes a real difference in the real world, but unless you're an enthusiast, it can be confusing or boring. Local availability? Well, it's possible that Wallyworld will stop carrying ammo at all, but not verified, so, it gets down to common vs. odd. .243 ( 6mm ) is a very good round, it's a necked down .308. Considered by many as a very good Deer round, it demands a little better precision in where YOU put the bullet, as the hole is smaller. Just under a 1/4 inch. Don't take that wrong, a .458 Winchester Magnum that misses the vitals is not much better than a .243 that misses. It usually leaves a bigger hole, and that does make a difference, but a wounded animal is a potential tragedy every hunter wants to avoid. Ignore the pro-writer types and the bragging over long range shots, if you can't hit a pie plate ( or pop can ) at a certain range, don't try and shoot a deer there. .243 Winchester is Pretty common in stores. The .308 is a 50's version of the 30-06, shortened a bit with more modern powder and nearly the same ballistics. ( you can cram a little more powder in a 30-06, but the difference is tiny ) 7mm-08 is the .308 necked down to 7mm. The 6.5-7mm sizes seem to be a ballistic sweet spot with heavy for diameter more "arrow-like" bullets, better at long ranges. Pretty darn common, about on a par with the .243 All of the above use the "short" action length. The .308 family is "short" the 30-06 family is regular/standard ( about a half inch longer ) and the .300 H&H magnum family is "magnum" ( longer yet) The 30-06 is over a century old, and is the standard for American Rifles. It kicks pretty hard compared to the rounds above, and has been used to kill everything that walks on the planet. The 30-06 is the evolution of the 30-03 that went from round nose bullet in 1903 to pointy in 1906. Neck length is slightly different. It's based on the 7.9 or 8mm Mauser cartridge, ( same thing ) which is not common in the US but is in Europe. Military round, so everyone makes it, and even more common than the .243.... Used to be the most common, but the .308 is darn close. The .270 Winchester is the 30-06 necked down for a .277" bullet. (6.8mm ) The .280 Remington is the 20-06 necked down for a .284 bullet. ( 7mm ) There are millions of words arguing the difference between these 2. A famous hunting writer made the .270 famous, and there is a hard core cult that prefers the .280. The .280 can use a slightly heavier bullet, and the geek arguments are constant. ( for one thing the right loading of the .280 is about equal to the 7mm Remington Magnum, with less kick ) The .270 is far more available, I seldom see .280 ammo at wallyworld. The 7mm Rem Magnum is a fine round, and also fairly common, though a little harder to find than .270 or .243. The 6.5 swedish Mauser is a fine round, but not very common in stores. Older, and totally unrelated to the 30-06/.308 families. The 30-30, ( aka .30 Winchester Centerfire ) is a round that marks the transition from black to smokeless powder. Considered a "high powered" round a century ago, it may be the premier deer cartridge, ever. Also older and unrelated to anything discussed. Common as dirt. Even if a store doesn't have 30-06, they probably have 30-30. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:30-30.jpg the .300 WSM, ( Winchester Short Magnum ) like the .300 RCM ( Ruger Compact Magnum ) and a host of other "new" cartridges from the last 50 years, are all good, and all far harder to find outside a sporting goods store. My opinion? Pick the rifle that fits you. .270/7mm-08/.308/30-06 would be my choices in a bolt action. Much as I like the Mosin I bought my Brother in law, the 7.62x54R is pretty uncommon, and I would not shoot crap surplus in one. ( probably corrosive, inaccurate, and high failure rate ) | ||
| Mtnmason |
WHOA. Thanks everyone. I figured my question may generate some responses but jeez... Thanks again. I knew it wouldn't take long before the Mosin was worked into the convo. I realize they are stupid cheap to own and shoot and perhaps I'll have one in the future, but it's pretty far down the list as of now. The .308 would be a no-brainer were it not such a popular caliber. Again - a lot of my decision is based on what will be left on the shelf when everything else is gone. I think I've got it pretty much narrowed down between the .30-06 and the 7mm-08. It comes down to this -- the aught-six is still really cheap but I'm a bit more more intrigued by the 7mm's ballistics. aesquire- thx for the synopsis. Some of that stuff was new info Dean - thx for the .338LM vid. I'll keep playing the lotto. Cityx - "if shiate comes to shove... and I believe it does soon" -- half of me prays that that will be avoided, the other half prays that I won't be too old to be involved when it finally does. I almost posed this question to the folks at the FN forum I frequent. Then I realized that they would probably ignore most of my parameters and respond with, "Dude, just get an FNAR" or "Just man up and get a SCAR 17". ....one of these days... | ||
| Etennuly |
Moonshiners have been going legit as of late. They quit shooting to. Some how store bought shine tastes awful for the most part.  Jr. Johnson said it is the preservatives that they have to put in. One more thing about the 30-30, as you can see in this thread, having one is like having sex with your sister. Sure you get the job done, but you don't want to talk about it back at hunting camp.  From a practical stand point for hunting, three times I have been on a successful hunt with 30-06 toters. One of the guys turned and shot a buck at fifty feet. He got the buck but it cost him almost $900 for the doe that was standing on the other side of it. Pa. used to have a lot of very strict game wardens out on the first day checking tags and licenses. They heard the shot and would be there to check. Another guy with a 30-06 hit a buck right in the ass hole when it turned just as he squeezed the trigger. The deer was less than a hundred feet out. The high powered bullet went right up and split it's spine to the skull. Sure the deer died quickly, but he wasted his tag on about fifteen pounds of salvageable meat out of a 180 pound deer. That same guy a couple of years later decided he could reach one at about 300+ yards. He did. Spent ten hours looking for it. Never found it. My point is these big power gun guys often win the pissing contests. Piss is not that good in the freezer. Although with all of what I have said, in an urban brawl, just knowing the enemy has the .06 over a 30-30 will reign more terror on the bad guys. I guess it depends on what your intended use is  . Just for shits and giggles, fun power target shooting I really enjoy blowing crap up with my 50 cal muzzle loading shot gun. It makes a pretty accurate big hole at 100 yds. No 20 ounce water filled bottle is safe with this thing. Never get a second shot on a capped bottle!  Oh yeah.....it would take all day to put fifty rounds down range! It is pretty economical that way too! | ||
| Ulyranger |
You can't go wrong with either the -06 or 7-08, both popular and performers. Don't dismiss the 308 though, popular means that it is produced in larger quantities, more widely available and more choices in components, reloading equipment and established load data when that time arrives. It is still a common military round for many countries which means surplus availability.....which equals quality cheap brass when you decide to reload. You are getting some good advice here and it sounds like you've narrowed down your choices smartly. If this current ammo shortage has taught us anything, it is not to take the ammo market for granted...... Stay away from specialty, niche cartridges, at least for your first tack driver. Only other advice i have is buy a quality rifle that fits you and your needs. | ||
| Spatten1 |
If you want ammo availability, 308 is NATO and your best bet long-term, even when the recreational ammo is not available. 30-06 is a great gun, but you won't get military surplus or quantity discount ammo the same way you can with .308. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I wouldn't worry about what's on the shelf during a shortage. I'd consider keeping enough ammo on-hand to make you comfortable during a long-term shortage. | ||
| Aesquire |
.... a lot of my decision is based on what will be left on the shelf when everything else is gone. IMHO you have that backwards. Yes, you have been more likely to find 45-70 buffalo gun ammo these last 6 months than .223, but I've visited Gander and they've had shotgun ammo, only, more than once. Walmart has had some of the classic hunting rounds, ( .270, 30-30, 7mm Rem Magnum ) in stock, but diddle in .22 or .223. Instead I would ask, what ammo is going to come back fastest? Long term smart money calls for reloading. It's a hobby all it's own, demanding attention to detail, willingness to do repetitive actions with precision, and a highly variable investment of money. If you do one caliber, with a single stage press, and time isn't important, pretty cheap. Not free, but you save money after several hundred rounds. If you run a progressive press and have all the neat bells and whistles, it costs more, but can be cheaper per round, if you figure any cost to your rime at all. Some people reload to "save money", but anyone who enjoys a fiddly bit hobby just likes it for it's doing. Oh, yeah, and you get to use that hobby to feed another. Double fun. What I'd do is keep an eye on the shelves. If you are anything like ME, you missed the shot at cheap ammo 8 months ago, and are now waiting for the price to drop, again. ( but, of course, not ever as low as it was before. ) In other words, if you LIKE the .308, get one. Ammo probably will be available more, and sooner, than most of the other rounds we've discussed here. .223 is likely to be a bit scarce because it's used in AR platform rifles, among others. I hope I'm wrong on that last bit. |
