| Author | Message | ||
     Bads1 |
Thank you Mark. Our Schools have been doing this with police for years. Maybe other city's in states should try the same. Taxes may go up but theres a feeling of safety in the school's even though things do and can arise and they are needed. | ||
| Blake |
Why not let students carry? Exactly. Why not? I assume you mean adult students. | ||
| Bads1 |
Hell yeah Blake Glocks and the like everywhere.lol Geez Bro you should here yourself.lol | ||
| Mikef5000 |
Mike wheres your common sense. My Daughter is 18. Shes in school...shes adult. She can go die for this country but she can't protect herself at school??? My Son is 21 and a college student. Why can't he carry??? Neither have any convictions?? All I'm doing is opening the door.lol Common sense?? You speak of alcohol. Something that I've been selling for 15 years and dealing with drunk idiots that are jacked up on liquid stupid. My bartenders are not aloud to carry at work by law??? Why Not.... they deal with some pretty scary situations from time to time. This thread was about an elementary school getting shot up, and I mistakenly assumed that's who you were referring to as 'students'. If you are now speaking of adults in school, such as your children... Then I'm with Darth Villar; if a 'student' takes the classes, passes the tests, and has a permit to carry, then I do not see why they shouldn't be allowed. CCW = concealed carry; if you're doing it right... no one will know you're carrying until it's time to defend yourself. That being said, perhaps before we open that door, I would be all for making CCW classes and tests a little more inclusive. I know mine was pretty lax. And about your bartenders not being allowed to carry at work... that's too bad... here in Ohio they would be allowed, assuming they're not drinking on the job and the bar owner hasn't posted there own No Carry sign. | ||
| Bads1 |
Yep adult students even in High School. They should be able to go to the bar and drink also. Why not they can carry a gun... dies for us protecting our great land right?? Where does this crap end?? | ||
| Bads1 |
And about your bartenders not being allowed to carry at work... that's too bad... here in Ohio they would be allowed, assuming they're not drinking on the job and the bar owner hasn't posted there own No Carry sign. Well guess what they are drinking in Ohio. And here in Wisconsin you cannot carry by law in a bar... sign or no sign. Do they I'm quite sure some do till they are caught. | ||
| Mikef5000 |
Yep adult students even in High School. They should be able to go to the bar and drink also. Why not they can carry a gun... dies for us protecting our great land right?? Where does this crap end?? If by "this crap" you mean our freedoms (for adults), then I don't know where it ends, I certainly hope not anywhere close. | ||
| Hootowl |
I believe most states ban firearms in any establishment where the primary purpose is selling alcohol. You can carry in a restaurant that serves booze, but not in a bar that serves food. | ||
| Mikef5000 |
Ohio is an exception... you may carry in a bar, assuming: 1) you're not drinking alcohol and 2) you're legally permitted to carry (have a CCW) To which many argued "But why would you be in a bar if you weren't drinking alcohol" and my answer is "who cares?". Bars can have bands, or billiards, or friends... there are reasons, and if I choose to carry there, then I'm choosing not to drink, and I see no reason why this shouldn't be allowed. Sorry off topic. Back on topic, I fully believe the chances of the principal stopping this massacre would've been greatly increased had that principal willingly had a gun, and was trained to use it. If the principal choose not to carry, I can respect that, lots of folks don't like guns. But the fact that that principal is legally not allowed irks me a bit. | ||
| Hootowl |
Or maybe you're the designated driver. Lots of reasons not to drink in a bar. | ||
| Hootowl |
"But the fact that that principal is legally not allowed irks me a bit." That's the key. The mass murderers know exactly where the unarmed victims are, and that's where they go. It's an amazingly simple concept to grasp. | ||
| Reindog |
Dana, A couple of suggestions to help your audience. 1) Use quotes when replying to someone. You come across as if you are arguing with yourself. 2) Good spelling and grammar, or lack thereof, gives your audience a peek inside your thought processes and intelligence and is a factor in how your cogent arguments are received or rejected. I doubt you would submit a resume with the spelling that you are using in this thread. Your audience is rejecting you, perhaps at the subconscious level, even if your arguments were sound. Carry on, BadWebHeads. | ||
| Cowboy |
One more ststement some do not want thier children in classroom with a teacher wirh a gun-----Both my daughter and suninlaw are Drs they both cary I assume you prefer to lay on a gurney and die rather than be treated. | ||
| Bads1 |
Tom, Thanks for your help and suggestions. Thing is this thread has taken up way to much of my time and will now leave you all to figure this out. I'm quite sure one of you will. Carry on....LOL | ||
| Aesquire |
.......We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids’ schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid’s school. Our children are dozens of times more likely to be killed, and thousands of times more likely to be seriously injured, by school violence than by school fires, but the sheep’s only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard, so they choose the path of denial. The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, “Baa.” Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog. As Kipling said in his poem about “Tommy” the British soldier: While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind," But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind, There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind, O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind. ..... http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm Comment from before on this thread went...You aint Rambo or any of the like, and this aint the movies/tv. That is so true. When I was confronted with a decision to act or not, some years back, I acted. Did I do everything right? No, darn it. After, I thought of all the moves I could have used, the witty lines, the big hero moments I missed out on. The good news from that incident is no one died. The store owner didn't die, I didn't die, and my buddy didn't die. No innocent bystander got shot, stabbed, or crushed, and btw the perp didn't die. I was always grateful that last part is true, though soon after, listening to the perp lie about how he had been treated, I had a speck of regret. But only for a moment. I had a man's life literally in my hands, and spared him. I didn't think it was needful. I didn't HAVE to kill him to stop his violence, or to protect myself. There was a small amount of discomfort involved, But I really think the police bouncing his struggling head off the door frame as they loaded him in the cruiser hurt more than anything I did. The lecture from my Sifu later on what I did wrong was......memorable. RE: Mandate. My point was not that a school should have security, even armed security, though that sucks that we live in world where that is needed. My point is you cannot mandate that a sheep be armed and act as a sheepdog. Not going to work. Sometimes "normal" "ordinary" people find out in moments of stress that they are not the helpless cowards they believe themselves to be. Are conditioned to believe they are. Sometimes under stress, people break. This business of being a sheep or a sheepdog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-grass sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth. I have a buddy who works in a gun free zone. Armed. He has made the decision that when the time comes he would rather take the legal heat than die, or watch others be killed. In NY the rule is simple. Concealed carry means concealed. If anyone even catches a glimpse of a weapon in the Imperial State, the odds are better than even there will be accusations of "brandishing" and police will get involved. Several people get shot every week, in a 10 mile radius of where I work. I'm not allowed to carry on the job. If I'd been at that school, the odds are I might be dead. I would not be armed with a firearm, or edged weapon. I might have been able to save others, I might not. I do know that IF such a thing happens in my presence, my inclination, and intention is to do what I can, with what I have to try to save people. If that means help people out an exit, or cover a child with my body to absorb the bullets, or throw a chair and attack, whatever, I hope I do it well. I hope I never find out. Again. ....Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones. Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, “Thank God I wasn’t on one of those planes.” The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, “Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference.” When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
USCCA CEO & President, Tim Schmidt concerning the tragedy in Newtown last week. What happened last week at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut was the kind of nightmare that would make anyone cringe. To say that I was saddened by what happened to those innocent children would be a gross understatement. No one should ever have to suffer this kind of devastation, and my thoughts and prayers are with everyone affected by this unspeakable tragedy. This is not the first mass murder that has shaken our nation, and although I wish it weren’t so, this will not be the last time a twisted person attempts to take innocent lives like this. Every time a shooting happens in our nation, a handful of “armchair experts” rise to propose that guns are the reason for the violence. If it weren’t for guns, our schools would be safer. If it weren’t for guns, you could go to the movies without fear. If it weren’t for guns, you could go Christmas shopping without looking over your shoulder... The fact of the matter is that more laws and more control don’t equal more safety and security. If you need proof, just look at Chicago. Chicago is the poster child for gun control, yet since 2001, 2,000 troops have died in Afghanistan while 5,000 people have been murdered in Chicago. Chicago’s homicide rate is four times greater than New York, and twice that of Los Angeles. Good intentions have yielded bad results in Chicago, and it’s time to face the facts: Criminals and psychotic individuals don’t obey “no guns” signs or gun control laws. It might be a cliche amongst gun owners, but arguing that guns cause murders is very much like arguing that spoons make people fat, or cars make drunk driving possible. So if taking guns out of the hands of responsibly armed citizens isn't the answer, then what is? After 9/11, massive steps were taken to harden-up cockpit doors, and we instituted the air marshal program to train and arm pilots. If anyone attempted to break through the cockpit door, they would be met by a hail of gunfire. After Columbine, why wasn't a similar program put in place to harden-up schools and train and arm teachers and administrators in tactical defense? The chilling fact remains that the Newtown murderer had no trouble breaking through the school's glass doors... I have no doubt that there are many people who would be outraged by the idea of our schools having responsibly armed personnel protecting our kids, but my response to them would be the same as Concealed Carry Report writer John Caile’s response: “…these same people who barely raise an eyebrow at the idea of armored car guards carrying guns to protect bags of cash, suddenly go apoplectic over the prospect of teachers carrying guns to protect young children. If that’s not misplaced priorities, I don’t know what is.” Violent criminals and psychopaths aren’t going away, and no law will prevent them from committing murder in the future. Now is not the time to wish the problem away. Now is the time to take this issue seriously enough to actually protect our children so that this never happens again. Take care and stay safe, Tim Schmidt | ||
| Aesquire |
Heard, but have not verified, that the Colorado Theater (batman) shooting was in the 1 of 8 theaters that was gun free. Also not the closest theater, nor the largest. FWIW. http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/2012/12/18/ | ||
| Hootowl |
That is true. After Columbine, Colorado made gun free public buildings illegal, unless the building provided armed security and metal detectors. They let private businesses, like movie theaters, continue to ban guns. So dude picked a gun free theater, and went to work. I sincerely hope that Colorado reconsiders their decision to leave it up to the property owner. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Blake to be clear I am not conceding to you or your thoughts I find your responses to be very hostile and lacking real substantive thought. Additionally you feel the need to attempt to attack me personally. So on those notes you guys enjoy the show. | ||
| Alfau |
For those inclined to be guided by G_d's word on the matter of carrying weapons. There are many scriptures for your instruction. Peace to you. 2 Timothy 3:1 Matthew 26:47, 52, 53. Isaiah 2:4 Romans 12:18 | ||
| Mikef5000 |
Tennessee Considers Training And Arming Schoolteachers... http://news.yahoo.com/tennessee-considers-training -arming-schoolteachers-protect-against-shootings-1 92556978--politics.html Could be the start of a movement... (or it could be shot down way before it ever gets off the ground) | ||
| Blake |
>>> ... I find your responses to be very hostile and lacking real substantive thought. Right, like calling Americans weak cowards, then offering blanket vagaries asserting that America doesn't care for the mentally ill and if we just did, then mass-murdering psychopaths wouldn't be a problem? I don't buy your premise and I don't buy your hopey-changey vision either. Evil exists and will have its way no matter what feel good proscriptions anyone might offer. It doesn't get any more substantive than that. I speak frankly. It's who I am. | ||
| Blake |
Alfau, Scripture ought to be read and understood as a whole, not taken in snippets out of context. I didn't review those verses that you referenced, just sayin'. | ||
| Blake |
Alfau, If you're truly interested in G_d's will concerning self defense, then a fairly good discussion of the issue complete with scriptural references in full context can be found at http://kim.kairosnet.com/self-defense.html. Good stuff! | ||
| Blake |
In case anyone doesn't know, the apostles were armed. | ||
| Kenm123t |
the instruction was ''sell your cloak and buy a sword " | ||
| Blake |
Darn. I've misplaced my cloak! | ||
| Kenm123t |
OH Gawd the thought of you uncloaked ! Any one that unfortunatly witnesses that would think I m RICH I FOUND BIG FOOT lol Your poor sainted wife! | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Let the states decide...as with everything else they should be deciding. | ||
| Ulyranger |
Interesting conversation even with a few hot pokers cast about. I think some have a hard time differentiating Right from Privilege. Freedom of speech and worship as you please are Rights. Attending school and driving a car are privileges. I find it interesting that one would trust the health and safety of their children daily with school employees, but somehow if they CCW they become unreliable. Cannot children be harmed w/o a firearm? Or even due to inaction be harmed? You may want to continue the status quo with schools remaining soft targets, gun free zones. I will not claim you are wrong, but i will disagree with you. Police officers in every school is not an option in many rural places. There is not one police agency housed within my entire school district, so should we start one just for the school? There are State Police, but none with sole responsibility here, their sectors are large and duties many. Hire dedicated, armed security guards? I'd argue they'd pose no greater protection than an average, well trained CCW permitee that takes their responsibilities seriously. I'd not oppose guards though if the program were set up well and cost effective. I had several teachers when i was in school that I know carried, not in school though. A couple shot competitively, any of them I'd trust my or my children's lives with. I personally would feel comfortable with well trained (and I'd be willing to pay extra for it too) school employees CCW if they are willing, no compulsion to do so would work. They do not have to be Wyatt Earp, just trained for proficiency and the sense of duty to take on the task faithfully. The active shooter incident if to be ended early requires immediate action by the committed. There may be collateral damage, the protector may be killed/injured but inaction can no longer be tolerated. Prevention revolves around identifying the threat in one of the early preparatory stages. This is a responsibility of family members, friends and other close contacts. Treatment? Fine. Means separation? Sure. Confinement? Possibly. There are no easy answers. Evil doers will always exist and trying to put the blame on inanimate objects is silly and transparent. Complete prevention is unobtainable. Deterrence is obtainable. Reducing the impact of such an event is also obtainable and it has nothing to do with reducing the rights of average citizens. Hopefully we as a society will wake up collectively and solve much of this riddle before we tear each other apart with quick fixes and focus group approved sound bites. Asquire, I enjoyed the sheep/sheepdog write up. Well put. I'm done, carry on.... (Message edited by Ulyranger on December 18, 2012) |
