| Author | Message | ||
     Hootowl |
Me too. Could have started as an electrical fire. | ||
| Sifo |
Electrical would be my guess. It was shut down at the time and would have been cooling off when it caught fire. I don't think it's likely to ever identify the exact cause though, unless it makes it way back to Ford somehow, but being over 10 years old I don't think that's likely either. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I am just not getting it . Why are the new mini tiny little cars (Fiat, Ford, Smart, Scion) so estatic about 35-44 MPG. I swear I remember the CR-X from 1983 Boasting 50 MPG for its HE model . So we go 30 years in progress, technology, and composites... and we are still sliding BACKWARDS on fuel effeciency ? (or did they change the matrix and the measure for which the used to gauge MPG and not accurately adjust the publics perception) I just could never buy a purely electric - I am out in the toolies too often. And as my shop teacher said back in the 80s - 'What are you going to do, plug that thing into a current bush ?' | ||
| Hootowl |
The 80's CRX could not pass current crash tests. Cars keep getting heavier. A CRX weighs around 1800 lbs. My 2006 Jetta weighs around 3300 lbs. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
+on the weight. I had a 1985 CRX si senior year of high school. Fast as stink and it got 46MPG on a long trip. Problems: so light that it would hydroplane with hardly any water on the road. Tach would climb up as I went along on the highway. This was with fresh tires too! The pedals were too close together for my clownshoe feet. I used to have to take my shoes off to drive it. The hydroplaning thing spelled its undoing. Rainy day, an uninsured tool in a 1978 Dodge boat ran a stop sign in front of me. I had ample time to react but wheels locked up like they were teflon. My car = DONE His car = dented fender and chipped paint. That's why my next car was a 1977 Dodge B200 cargo van. (11MPG) | ||
| Aesquire |
Hootowl, do you have the stick? Or the Auto? I've got the '09 with the DSG dual clutch auto, and in "S" mode, it revs right to 4k, then shifts faster than you can blink. ( watched the host on Top Gear Try to beat it, couldn't ) I do worry about parking on grass, since the VW system now uses an "afterburner" to get rid of the particulates it catches, and then eliminates. It's a bit weird to park the car, and walk away as fans keep on going, and not real quietly either. It won't, however, start by itself, though on occasion the afterburner kicks in as soon as the exhaust & engine are up to temp. ( Mercedes uses wizz fluid ) It's all robotic today. That Ford fire is probably electrical, give your bro my sympathy. Usually car fires are the interior, not the gas tank. Except for Pintos, and cars that 20/20 bolt rocket motors to. That looked to be right up front. ( Oily insulation that touched the exhaust? ) How is the interior? City, I understand how you feel, but if you JUST wanted fuel economy, you could get pretty good back in the day, I had a '76 Dodge van with a slant 6, 3 on the tree, that got over 20mpg. Never get close to passing todays pollution tests. As we get more sophisticated in the computer engine controls, you can get better power, mileage and pollution. Look at Fiat and the Multiair variable valve timing system. (now in the new Dodge Neon, I mean Dart ) As burning the fuel gets closer to perfect, you pollute less and get more power per gallon. Ultimately, power = fuel, so don't expect to ever get 50mpg AND 500hp at the same time, but you could get either, when needed from the same engine. ( and when you do, I want it in a Van. ) I wouldn't say Oil is the Devil... but even Al the Con Man Gore has a point in that an enormous amount of the American economy revolves around cars, roads, and keeping that all going. Rome ruled by roads back when armies walked, it's still a needed thing for commerce. ( until we get antigravity... Or Transporters, and I'm not holding my breath ) Oil is, for certain, our Capital. We must treat it as the limited resource we use to get rich and techno-smart enough to make power from the Atom, or Zero-Point, or Vrill... whatever works. With today's technology, plus a little more engineering, Fission and Fusion should be running our lights and industry. My personal guess/belief is that Vrill is a con, ( as are Perpetual motion machines ) and that Zero-point will turn out to be a pain to gather in tiny amounts to add up to useful power. Much as Wind and solar are today. The energy may be "free" but you have to build big things to collect it a photon at a time. ( and ALL power we use is directly or mostly indirectly Star power.) Fossil fuels are stored solar. Hydro power is pumped by solar evaporation & rain. Fission is from heavy metals, and each atom of Uranium, etc. is made ONLY in the hearts of Supernovas. We are starstuff. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I have often wondered, why then - oil is not the bench mark the currency. We certainly don't have any backing of the indebted paper they are printing / forging away our future on. I am betting that if the currency were backed by oil reserves.... they would find some damn domestic production capabilities first eco box was a 83 dodge colt with a dual power stick to it - too much damn fun in a J turn | ||
| Hootowl |
I have the stick. The DSG is pretty slick though. It shifts in 8 ms. No one can do than manually. A friend of mine has one, and I have driven it so I know how good it is. I don't regret buying the manual though. I think the afterburner is actually a different fuel map that it switches to periodically to burn out the converter. Pretty neat system. No liquid catalyst required like some of the other clean diesel designs. Thought about getting a new one for the lack of soot in the exhaust but I can't see ditching this one. It has been the single most reliable piece of mechanical equipment I have ever owned. I couldn't be happier with it. | ||
| Sifo |
I was wondering it new diesel cars were using a soot trap these days. All our new buses have them, and they periodically have to go into a regeneration mode where it burns the soot out. It has to be running at least at moderate speeds to do this, or eventually you have to do a "manual" regeneration. That means letting it idle for a while after pushing the regeneration switch. We have been warned to not do this with the exhaust anywhere near anything that can burn or melt. These buses also have a diffuser tip on the exhaust that none of the old ones have. It becomes a problem with some buses that get used locally and never get over 30 mph. They will eventually shut down if a regeneration isn't done. So do the cars have an idiot light that tells you it's burning the soot out? Our buses do. My bus BTW maxes out at about 2400 RPM. Cummins, not sure what size. | ||
| Aesquire |
No light to show burnout in process on my '09, and I believe the fan is part of the cool down cycle. Lotta heat happening, but not sure it's much less/more than some catalytic converters. I remember the first Chevy V-8s with air pumps in the 1970's sometimes making the cast iron exhaust manifolds glow. You have to be careful with starting fires if you park on brush or grass with more than diesels. Different vehicles are programmed differently in how they respond to running out of Urea based fluid, ( High priced wizz.... but don't Use wizz, it's too salty. Corrosion issues. ) Mostly going slow enough to really pi$$ you off to encourage you to fill up, before shutting down( to save the environment ) . It is expected that direct injection on gas engines will narrow the efficiency gap with diesels, and a few gas cars get about the same mileage as the VW TDI's this year. Top Gear is noted for hating diesels, as the way they like to drive small cars is "rev them 'till the valves dance on the hood, then shift". Mr Grumpy and I are on the same page on that one. Handling and grunt. I love that at 60-70mph in the hills, on cruise, it never downshifts. Just growls at a constant speed. I got the DSG because when I ordered the car, the plan was to have the paddle shifters, and I figured that was as close as I was going to get to drive a Ferrari...  Alas, they didn't put the paddles in the Sportwagen. Darn, I actually miss the Colt, I used to have a rear, then a front drive model. Fun little things. ( not fast... but fun, fast enough for tickets, though...  ) | ||
| Hootowl |
I like the grunt too. I can get into 4th gear without ever stepping on the gas, and it will idle along at 15 mph in 3rd gear, even while climbing a small hill. | ||
| Aesquire |
Returning to the original question, if you needed a car, and were inclined to rent, AND could get a bargain on a Volt? Normally I'd figure you'd live within a few miles of work, ( do could run electric only most days ) and possibly in the warmer states, ( where you need less heat and lights.. ) to make a Volt a practical car. ( but I could be wrong on that, My Dad loves his Pius for cross country driving... ) But as a rental? Assuming price parity with a comparable car? | ||
| Tom_b |
My question is why not use electric or hybrid tech for short haul service vehicles. Like city maintenance, hvac, electrical and plumbing contractors??? they usually travel less than 200 miles a day. i would buy one and know several contractor that would. Instead of marketing them for the masses. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Tom I am contractor Short haul Hvac van lol Yea right I drive close to 40k a year in a company service truck. My fleet e350 7.3s are more cheaper to run than any of the hybrid cars Electrics totally out of the question My vans run @ 17000lbs and 20mpg depending on model older vans get better newer emission regs 18 -19mpg. | ||
| 7873jake |
Tom, google up the California HVIP program. I work for a company that builds specialty vehicles and we just completed two big Freightliners with Eaton hybrid transmissions. The state of CA has a voucher program to help fleets offset the increased purchase price of a hybrid large vehicle. The trucks still get 6 gallons to the mile (kidding) on the highway but the hybrid tranny assists with idle time and around town stop-n-go stuff. They're like driving a car with a stall converter. | ||
| Tom_b |
My vans are 3/4 ton chevy 2500 or ford E250 panel vans, usually average around 27k miles a year and about 11 mpg in urban traffic. Diesel is freaking expensive i gave up those long ago. so again why isn't there something similar available in electric. a very good friend of mine was in Saudi arabia several years ago and was telling me about electric trash trucks they use in the high end neighborhoods to keep noise and diesel fumes down. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Or Google up "Electric Milk Float" | ||
| Kenm123t |
Lifecycle the diesels cost less in fuel and maintence. twice the mileage and 4 times the life span. Diesel is about the same cost as gas and less maintence per mile. We tow our heavy equipt with the vans We have tractors and JCB telehandlers 32klbs at times | ||
| Aesquire |
There are a few answers to your question, ...why not use electric or hybrid tech for short haul service vehicles...? Higher capital, upfront costs. That will ease as they get more common, but you are buying not just a battery, & a high powered motor. You need some expensive power handling electronics to act as throttle and charge controller. Plus, if it's a hybrid, ( if you want it to work north of the Mason Dixon line... ) an engine with enough power to run the truck and/or charge the battery. There's some politicking involved with buying an more expensive truck for, say, a town, even when long term operating costs are less. And the tech is new enough that that's not certain. ( battery life, durability of electronics, etc. ) The same kind of cost benefit analysis takes place in the real world. Scale of production is a factor in keeping the prices high, and scale of size is another issue. They've run everything from electric to Stirling engines in buses, and it seems that diesel wins out in durability and cost of operation. What works for a Prius or Insight is just not heavy enough to haul a 6000+ gvw van. But it should, if you increased the size of the battery a little, and the motor a bunch. Figure 60hp for 60mph on a non aerodynamic brick. More than that to actually accelerate to that speed, and even more if you ever want to pass someone. Then there's hills. Theory says you'd get max efficiency with a locomotive type hybrid with a small diesel, run at pretty constant rpm hooked up to a generator. Then a mid sized battery pack ( sized for desired electric only range ) running the electric motor. Should be lighter, simpler, and be easier to tune the fuel burner for max efficiency since it doesn't have to have a driver friendly power curve. Don't believe anyone makes such a rig in the small truck size I desire for personal use. There are some like that in the bigger sizes, but I'm not familiar with them. Let's see... http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Truck/ HybridPower/index.htm is making the FedEx trucks, and in Europe it's http://www.iveco.com/Pages/welcome.html# http://web.iveco.com/uk/products/pages/daily_elect ric_range.aspx | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
The problem with virtually all commercial vehicles is power storage. Time spent filling up or recharging is time not earning. Any vehicle that can't do it's job within it's operating range is either, less efficient as it has to waste time replenishing, or dead weight as it's not done it's job. If your petrol or diesel vehicle runs dry, you can transport enough fuel in a can to get you to the next fuel station. You can't just tip a bucket of volts into an electric vehicle. Now I know you're all aware of this & think I'm stating the bleeding obvious, but the bleeding ovious is frequently overlooked by people who should (& are paid to) know better. An example, the plumber who's route is planned out by his company for his calls, has problems with a couple of jobs & needs extra parts. Does he have enough range to go to the parts supplier twice? Or the OTR driver who's right on the range limit, when an accident closes the road he's on & he has an extra 40 miles to cover, or he has to park & sleep in the truck when it's sub-zero. There are so many possible variables that until such time as battery standardization & supply infrastructure are in place, commercial electric vehicles will remain short range only. I can see Hybrid technology developing in the otr sector, but I doubt I'll be driving them. I think the future will involve much more transhipping of freight, with bigger hubs running short haul electrics, & Hybrid Tractors pulling 2 or 3 trailers between hubs. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Till we get pocket Thorium reactors for trucks Hybrids and electrics are as much step back as a Coal Fire locomotive. Liquid fuels for vehicles is the only real answer. CNG for over the road trucks is the way to go a bi fuel CNG with Diesel for ignition and a back up fuel supply. We run Bifuel genset at a much higher BMP than any truck and they preform very well and a conversion is not difficult ecm and a few sensor etc. It will clean up the emissions limiting the urea injection required | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Quite a lot of buses run CNG in Europe (clean in town) with the tanks on the roof. | ||
| Tom_b |
"As an example, the plumber who's route is planned out by his company for his calls, has problems with a couple of jobs & needs extra parts. Does he have enough range to go to the parts supplier twice?" This would be more of a concern than downtime for charging at night. something that would be in the 200 mile a day range in urban and light highway use. Which is where most service related vehicles fall. | ||
| Sifo |
Higher capital, upfront costs. That will ease as they get more common That's not what's being predicted by some pretty knowledgeable folks. The problem is that pretty rare materials are required to make these modern marvels. The supply just isn't there to build large supplies of these vehicles. The same materials go into many of the new consumer electronic gadgets that are also sucking up the supplies of these raw materials. This is an unusual situation where economies of scale are likely to be countered by a limited supply of raw materials. | ||
| Xl1200r |
The '09 VW TDI Sportwagen is darn close, 90+%. Not so good for hauling a face cord of lumber. ( one of the reasons I also have a Van. ) Toss a hitch on a Jetta, problem solved! I'm sure it's a LOT more fun to drive than a van. Yeah, it's Turbo Surge now. Used to be Turbo lag. It's ALWAYS turbo lag, at least to me. A big rush when I'm expecting it means I'm waiting around for the power to show up when I'm not. It's why I got rid of my last car, a Mazdaspeed3, because if that little amount of lag was annoying as all get out. first eco box was a 83 dodge colt with a dual power stick to it - too much damn fun in a J turn My pop had one of those! I am just not getting it . Why are the new mini tiny little cars (Fiat, Ford, Smart, Scion) so estatic about 35-44 MPG. I swear I remember the CR-X from 1983 Boasting 50 MPG for its HE model . So we go 30 years in progress, technology, and composites... and we are still sliding BACKWARDS on fuel effeciency ? I think this was mostly covered regarding the weight, but there's still some odd things at work here. My current car is 10 years old and gets an honest to goodness 28-30 mpg on the highway. Nothing to write home about. But then consider it's a 5.7 liter (litre?) V8 making 345hp. My little Japanese hatchback (Mazdaspeed3) mustered, at best, a mere 26mpg on the highway despite the engine being less than HALF the size, HALF the cylinders and benefitting from turbocharging and intercooling, making nearly 100 hp less and weighing roughly the same. It makes no sense to me. Getting back to hybrids (and "extended range electric vehicle, like the Volt, which are just... hybrids), they may get better mpg than their gas-engined counterparts, but there is an inherent inneffeciency built into the design - you're either dragging around an electric motor and battery when you're not using it, or your dragging around a gas engine and tank of fuel when you're not using it. Hybrids, as far as I'm concerned, is about nothing more than making a statement. We've already covered the enviornmental impact of manufacturing batteries (let alone a new car) and mix in the fact that, even in America, it is stupidly easy to find a similarly-sized car that gets 40+ MPG on just a gas engine, there's no realistic way that the gas savings from driving a hybrid would pay off for anyone. I did it a few years ago and when gas was cheaper, but they payoff point for buying a Camry hybrid as opposed to a gas model was well over 200,000 miles. | ||
| Chauly |
Having both a Smart and a Prius provides me with a unique, long-term perspective on this discussion. In defense of the Prius: It is the Best Car Evah, in my long experience. Why is that, you may ask? This car has been the most reliable, efficient car. For example, after 226,000 miles, I can count the number of things that have failed on one hand: a front wheel bearing (a little noisy), and a muffler (fatigue crack around the inlet nozzle). That's it. I have had two deer strikes (each front quarter), been "Ben-hur'd" by a semi's front wheel in the side, and backed into in the rear. Still tight, quiet, and smooth. Maintenance is where it has really shone, and there's something that most never talk about: brake life. In regen, the battery/motor is slowing the car, so the brakes are rarely used. I replaced the front pads at 168,000 miles (they still had 1/8" on them), and I have a set of rear shoes that I am still waiting to put on. I replaced the battery after 8 years--- no, not the big one, but the tiny 12v jobby in the back! It's on it's 4th set of tires (getting about 70-80K on Michelins). The mileage has sagged from 52 down to 44-45 as the engine is a bit looser. Mobil 1 every 11K miles, and it consumes a quart over that interval. I had a Subaru Outback that got 25 mpg all the time; every mile I put on the Prius was not put on the Outback, so a comparison of the gas consumption meant that I saved over $8K in fuel by comparison. The Prius only holds 90% of the volume the Outback does, and can't pull my 2000 lb. trailer (only my 1000-lb.) (I put a 20' extension ladder inside the Prius and shut the hatch...:-) Yes, I will probably buy another... someday... The Smart has 50K on it, and gets 38-42 mpg. It has an automatic trans in it, and it's a convertible, both of which are a drag, literally. It's still fun to drive, and commutes nicely. Leather seats (heated), nice sound system, projector headlights. Fully optioned, $18K. Mobil 1 from the factory, changed every 10K miles. So far, so good... I have replaced 3 headlight bulbs and an air cleaner element. I don't think that hybrids are a fail at all. The extra stuff doesn't seem to hurt anything, and its strength is getting back the energy wasted by braking. Some are better than others, and I think Toyota has the best technology out there. The oddest thing about owning an early Prius (2004) is that when I bought it, people would actually cop an attitude towards me and say something like "You don't even know how much a battery costs for that thing!" Well, yes, I do, actually, since I called up the Parts Guy and asked... Now, if they had said "You don't know how long the battery will last!", they might have had a point... | ||
| Aesquire |
Dad loves his prius... on his second one. Passion trumps practicality, or accounting. Some people, just enjoy the holier than thou attitude an edgy, Green car gives them. An Insight or a Leaf lets them look down on the guy in the noisy, mud splattered 4x4. They certainly aren't going to go out in the wilderness that these rednecks are undoubtedly destroying! They have no need for macho, testosterone soaked high jinks off the safe, sane, government regulated for their safety roads. Greener than thou is a powerful marketing tool for the more refined among us. Many really can feel the appeal of being better than their noisy, smoke producing neighbors with their filthy unkempt children on 4 wheelers... just by buying the right car! Those people who bought one because they are gearheads digging on the new technology ( guilty ) don't really have the same motivation... but what do you expect from some neanderthal who obsesses about compression or power to weight ratios? They even market TDi's with the Greener than Thou theme. I love this one. ( and if it doesn't chill you a little... avoid the climate thread ) I've always hoped that this was meant to be subversive... | ||
| Chauly |
I am in the latter (NON-holier than thou!)category, for sure... | ||
| Aesquire |
So far... NO ONE has said they'd consider a cheap Volt rental. Hmm. Seems to have become an oil burner thread, and Diesel heads seem pretty hard core. Question. I found that Dodge made a 2.8l diesel for the Caravan. It's not on the web site, and IIRC there was a hiatus in US diesels in 2007. But the Ford Econoline Van doesn't have a diesel option on the web site either, and they do, indeed, make those. ( see E-bay ) I know that certain dealers order specials where there is a demand, and you have always been able to get cars & Trucks with options supposedly not allowed. ( I know, because I have had, and friends have ordered, purchased and drove such vehicles. ) So, did they EVER sell the Caravan with the 2.8 diesel in the US? If so, what are the odds I can find one? | ||
| Sifo |
Speaking of electrics... Did anyone see what happens to a Fisker Karma when you add water? Here's some pictures of a Fisker car lot that was hit by Sandy...     Here's the story from Jalopnik. |
