| Author | Message | ||
     Pkforbes87 |
I apologize in advance for the lack of detail. I look forward to sharing the story at a later time if I deem that to be the proper course of action. I believe my 4th Amendment rights have been violated by two local police officers. What do I do? Speak to a lawyer? Journalist? Write a letter to the Chief of Police? I'd appreciate any answer that doesn't involve sucking it up and falling in line with all the other sheeple in this country. A few years ago I ran into a situation in which I felt like my 1st Amendment rights had been violated. I contacted the Christian Law Association and received prompt and expert legal advice that resulted in the situation being resolved almost immediately in my favor. Is there a source like this to use for my current situation? | ||
| Old_guy |
Does this local agency have an Internal Affairs department? | ||
| Sifo |
Given the vagueness of your post (and you probably should keep any info you divulge VERY limited) what do you wish to accomplish. If you want to make a public issue to keep it from happening to others the media my be your friend. If you want legal recourse, skip the media at this time and find a lawyer. The result of this violation may also play into it. If you released with nothing further happening, I'm not sure what can be done to correct anything. If charges were brought from this (I assume this to not be the case if you a debating the lawyer part) then a lawyer would be able to use this to your benefit. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
I want to make this a public issue. I have no desire to seek financial gain from this by suing. I was not charged with anything or arrested. I'm thinking bringing the story to light in as many places as possible is the next step, but again, would like to keep the details to a minimum while I carefully weigh all options. | ||
| Sifo |
You could contact a "Gloria Allred" type lawyer. They know how to work the media. I'm not sure if your case is big enough for them to take any notice though. Otherwise, local media would be a starting place. Possibly the morning shows of some national media. Of course that will require all the details, and your personal info being public as can be. I like the "internal affairs" idea, but they will certainly not do things publicly. Neither will contacting the police chief. In reality, unless this is a pretty egregious violation of your rights, most media won't bother though. Make sure you want to be a public figure before you pursue any of this though. It's hard to undo things once they are a public stink. | ||
| Two_seasons |
If it was a moving stop, you can lock your vehicle and not be subjected to search/seizures. On a bike, they can walk around it, but can't touch it "unduly". Not without a court ordered search warrant. That also includes seizure, such as threatening you with impound of your car/bike if you refuse to let them "just take a look through your effects". If you don't have a strong enough case, in other words, your word against theirs, then you could always go youtube and air out your thoughts there. | ||
| D_adams |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_t he_United_States_Constitution
That help any? | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
What 4th Amendment rights? | ||
| Old_guy |
I will throw this out there, you can be searched(incident to arrest) without being arrested if you committed an offense that is arrestable by statute. At least the assistant U.S. Attorneys I have dealt with allow it. | ||
| Old_guy |
And in most places a Mandatory appearance ticket = arrest. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Avoid the public humiliation route with the media and find yourself a lawyer. Don't post online about this stuff. it's a public forum. ANYONE can be reading these posts. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
I live about an hour drive from the campus where I attend college 5 days a week. Last night, I had a night exam which is uncommon since my classes are all mid-day. I also had class relatively early this morning, so I decided ahead of time to throw a sleeping bag in the back of the car and spend the night close to the campus to save time and prevent spending the approximately $10 that an extra round trip would cost me. (I'm poor and frugal) I parked in the parking lot of a church I regularly attended a few years ago, and promptly went to sleep. Around 11:30pm, I woke up to an officer tapping on my car window asking me to get out of the car. I did (a mistake I will not make in the future) and was asked why I was there. I began explaining my transportation/schedule/living/etc situation. During that explanation the officer spotted my Leatherman Skeletool protruding from my right front pocket. I carry it all the time, with the body of the tool mostly hidden inside my pocket, only the clip and "knuckle" portion of the pliers is visible outside the pocket. Here's a photo to clarify:  When the officer noticed the tool he took got a surprised look on his face, took a step back, then told me that he saw a knife in my pocket and instructed me to give it to him. I responded, "No sir, I won't give it to you but I will put it back in my car if that makes you more comfortable." Now, that may sound like a smartass thing to say but I can assure you that it was not said in a disrespectful or condescending manner at all. I was simply trying to be direct, respectful, and up until that point completely cooperative. The officer again instructed me to give him the "knife", I again respectfully declined. He then, in one fluid motion, stepped swiftly toward me, grabbed my right arm and placed it behind my back in handcuffs, then followed it with the my left hand and pushed me to the ground. I'll clarify - this wasn't a "violent" sequence of events so to speak, but I see that as a result only of my very purposeful and very planned lack of physical resistance. Just because I very strongly disagreed with the way things were going doesn't mean I was foolish enough to get involved in a physical altercation with a police officer. I'll also clarify that after the initial point of me stepping out of the car I kept my hands in clear sight at all times. After the point when the officer told me to surrender my Leatherman, I also kept them away from my pockets. I was not security forces when I was in the military but I understand that someone in that role needs to control the situation and I have always done my best to aid law enforcement in clearly feeling in control of the situation. (both hands on the wheel during a traffic stop, keys removed from the ignition and obviously dropped onto the road surface when stopped on a motorcycle, etc) In my opinion, my refusal to surrender the Leatherman didn't prevent the officers from maintaining control of the situation. Both were wearing semi-automatic handguns strapped to their hips - I see no reason for someone in those shoes to feel "threatened" by a multi-tool. At some point, the officer removed the Leatherman from my pocket (I honestly don't remember whether it was before I was on the ground or after) THEN, and only then did the officer ask for my ID. I told him where my wallet was in my car and gave him permission to retrieve it. At no point did he ever ask to search the car, nor would I have given him permission. Not that he would have needed it.  Blah blah blah, the rest was somewhat uneventful and predictable. The officer and his partner ran my license, car tags, found nothing. They called someone on the staff of the church (I still haven't found out who they woke up at 11:30pm) but it doesn't matter who they called - I know them all well and they obviously didn't mind my being there or I'd have been charged with trespassing. The second officer wanted to know why I refused to surrender my Leatherman and I respectfully referred to the 4th Amendment and asked if I had given either of the officers probably cause to feel threatened or that I could not be trusted with a "fancy pair of pliers" (the only time during these events that I feel I was definitely a smart ass) The rest of the time was spent with the two of them attempting to convince me that what they had done was not only logical but also legal, and me respectfully disagreeing. While still sitting on the ground in handcuffs. Thoughts? If someone thinks I'm off my rocker crazy for not just handing over the Leatherman, go ahead and say it. I'll respectfully disagree. This may seem like a trivial event, but give an inch here and in a few years you're stepping into the train car headed for a gas chamber - all in the name of peaceful compliance. Yes, the comparison is extreme. But where does one draw the line between the two? | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
Nate, I'm not interested in financial compensation or getting my face on the news - local or otherwise. I'm interested in men and women in uniform who have a complete understanding of, and commitment to, the laws which they are sworn to uphold. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
I agree with the officers, mostly. Your first mistake imo was not cooperating when he asked for the "knife" ... you didn't take it out so he could actually SEE that it was a leatherman. So he must have assumed it was or was very probable you were hiding something when you refused. that act itself imo was being a smart ass. I lived in my car for a spell years ago and learned the hard way the if you have nothing to hide... show it. (meaning show them you have nothing to hide) You wouldn't have been dozing off in class the next day. But the officers probably could have ran your tag before tapping on the window and told you to move one or satisfy that you were alive and went on their way too. I say sukitup. | ||
| Rotzaruck |
The rest of the time was spent with the two of them attempting to convince me that what they had done was not only logical but also legal, and me respectfully disagreeing. A hard sell, I would agree. While still sitting on the ground in handcuffs. I am amazed they didn't want to search the car. If they really felt threatened they should have been sure there was something there. I think I would have done the same thing you did, logical or not. I see their side also though I think they could have worked it out without the need of handcuffs. You must have looked really dangerous. | ||
| Boltrider |
I'm looking for the reasonable suspicion needed for a detention and I don't see it. A car parked in a church parking lot at 1130 pm is not in and of itself illegal. When the cop told you to get out of the car, he detained you, and I can't see a legal reason based on the story for doing so. If he had prior knowledge that your car wasn't supposed to be there, then that would be a different story. The cop can't assume beforehand that your vehicle shouldn't be there. And if this was an illegal detention, then (I think) what happened afterward also would be illegal, like a "fruit of the poisonous tree" kind of a thing. | ||
| Boltrider |
Did the cop ask you to get out of the car, or did he tell you to get out of the car? That's an important distinction. If you remember, how did he word it? Because if he told you, then that's a command and therefore a detention. | ||
| Brumbear |
I would have to agree with the cops on this sorry man. I wouldn't chance getting stabbed either. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Bolt, to be clear - The Fourth Amendment protects you from unlawful search and seizure. Detaining an individual for a reasonable amount of time for investigative purposes is well within an officers rights. Any detention, or delay would be required to check out a person's credentials and so forth. Talking to a person sleeping in a car in a probably empty/perhaps dark lot is well within that realm. Consider the many incidents that have happened across our nation and you may begin to get some idea of a enthusiastic officer's mindset, especially if your church is near campus. You can even have cuffs on and still only be considered detained, but that goes into a gray area due to perception or belief with regard to your status when placed in cuffs. Many officers will explain "For your safety (keeps you from getting shot) and mine (helps you remember to restrain your actions) I'm going to place these cuffs on you. They will further clarify "You are not under arrest", when they do this. "You must have looked really dangerous" - See, now that's the problem. You cannot look at someone and tell if they are THE guy who's going to wreck your day until they actually do. People who "look" dangerous don't really have a lot of need to actually be dangerous. Next consideration, even if he knew your multi tool was just a multi tool, any law enforcement officer would be stupid to disregard the knife blade that is a potentially lethal threat. Very few multi tools do not have a blade. People get stabbed with screw drivers and other improvised weapons all the time. As an officer I would never disregard a knife. All that said, given your compliance and his back-up I think it would have much more appropriate for him to have asked you to carefully remove it from your pocket and place it either on top of your car (where it can be easily seen) or on the ground in front of you (still in your view but would take an obvious effort to go after - giving him or his partner sufficient time to put a couple rounds in you if you made an obvious attempt to go after it in an attempt to assault one of them). The cop doesn't want you to have the [perceived] weapon, and wants it where he can control it. That's kind of wordy but the most clear way I can see to explain it at the moment. It might sound like I'm siding with the cops, I'm just trying to help put it into perspective. I think there might have been better options than giving the officer the "knife" as I listed above, that way you would have remained compliant. As it was, once you refused a lawful order from a police officer it becomes very easy to articulate why force was used in order to restrain you. I think there was a communication failure - what he wanted, and asked for, was not necessarily what you understood his instructions to be. A formal complaint to the department is probably a good option here. You've already spent some time documenting the event, that's a good start. Send a letter, maybe it will help them adjust their in-house training to improve officer communications with the public, or perhaps some legal updates to the officers might be useful. Different departments will sometimes choose just how they are going to deal with those legal realms, it's a touchy line. Perhaps you will receive an explanation from the department as to why things went the way they did as well. -Mike | ||
| Davegess |
Dude, these guys stop people who are up to no good, dangerous and basically lying sacks of shit. They do this all day, every day. to stay alive you have to be suspicious. Cop was not out of line. | ||
| Sifo |
I've got to go with the cops on this one. They correctly identified a weapon sticking out of your pocket while trying to determine if an unknown person belongs where he is. This is late at night, in the dark, in a presumably empty parking lot. This is a potentially dangerous situation from the start. Once they spot a weapon, it starts to escalate. What they asked of you was to simply prevent any further escalation so that everyone gets to go home and see their loved ones later. Sometimes cops do go way overboard and need to be smacked back into place. I just don't think this is one of those times. Most times cops are just trying to not have a bad day on the job. Their bad days tend to be far worse than mine. | ||
| Two_seasons |
First and foremost, all stops are detentions! Second, all requests from an officer of the law are commands...period. Third, while officers have to be careful in each situation they encounter, those situations that they create should be communicated with respect and authority. Every situation is different, yet every officer should handle each the same way...every time! When an officer either happens upon a threat or is making a stop, they are trained to assess the situation and determine the outcome before they engage with the detained person(s). In this case, the back up officer will side with the initiating officer unless some real bad @#$% was metted out during the detention. Then, and only then, will the second officer hopefully not side with the first officer. Police officers are trained to remember the sequence of events that may escalate. You, probably not so much. And, you were sleeping, so advantage cops. I think I would have given them the Leatherman without the comments. After all, like you said, they have the firepower and the overpowering muscle, so you lose if you don't do it there way. Worst case, you have to pick the Leatherman up at the cop shop the next day. We all get agitated when things don't go our way. We don't need to become part of the problem too. If you are going to school down in Columbia, I can get why you are feeling this way. Weird ju-ju in that town now-a-days! PM me if you want my take on the situation there. | ||
| Boltrider |
Well, there is such a thing as an illegal detention. They teach that at POST academies. A cop needs more than just a hunch to stop you. | ||
| Boltrider |
That's NOT true. There's a difference between getting voluntary compliance by asking, versus telling someone via a command to do something. They teach "ask them, tell them, make them," assuming you have the legal authority to do so. A request is not the same as a command. I should rephrase and say that there are times when they are not legally permitted to give a command and must instead get consent in the form of a question. (Message edited by boltrider on September 22, 2012) | ||
| Boltrider |
I guess I see things a little differently. I went through the Sac Police Academy a few years ago and it was pounded into my head that you must know your legal authority and be able to cite it before doing anything, assuming you have the time. In this case, the area is very grey and I'm not convinced of the officer's authority, but that's just me. | ||
| Malott442 |
The law of the book and the law of the street are different. If you have nothing to hide, choose the path of least resistance. How many times has my car been searched without suspicion? At least 5. Pulled over for driving through the bad part of town and being white in that neighborhood? Once.... but I was more concerned with getting away from the police and on with my life than anything else. I guess you have to choose your battles in life. If we take too much or give too much to the police, then things will go haywire. I'm just glad they don't freak out when I inform them I am armed to the teeth when they pull me over for speeding. | ||
| Davegess |
This was not a stop. You were trespassing. The owner of the property say it is OK AFTER the fact. AS far as the cop knows you are trespassing. He has no way to know otherwise when he sees you in the car. | ||
| Pwnzor |
As BadWeB's resident ex-convict, I'll offer my opinion. You were trespassing. The cops didn't act out of line, based on your description of the event. They were doing exactly their jobs, nothing more. Protecting the private property of citizen(s) in their absence. Let's suppose you're out of town. A guy quietly pulls into your driveway and goes to sleep in his car. He intends to get out of there at daybreak and not steal or do anything untoward. Cop rolls by, knows your house and cars, sees the suspicious vehicle and investigates. Guess what, he found a guy trespassing while in possession of a weapon. Run that through your mind a few times, I think you'll find it's best to just suck it up and move on. | ||
| Sifo |
The cop doesn't even know you are a trespasser until they check you out. For all they know it's an abandoned car. Once they see you inside, they still may not even know if you are alive. They do have to check on these things when the find a car where if doesn't belong. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
"First and foremost, all stops are detentions! Second, all requests from an officer of the law are commands...period." Not true and not true... ************************* You were parked in the parking lot of a CLOSED church at 11:30pm, found to be armed with a metal instrument and refused to comply when the officer asked you to remove the instrument. As a result of this you were secured and the weapon was removed from you. The officers then retreived your ID, ran it and called someone from the church to verfiy your presence there. IMO, the officers did not act out of line and were actually trying to give you the benefit of doubt by "asking" you to remove the weapon (most would have secured you and they would have then removed it from the start). You may even have had a taser or a gun pointed at you. Some things to think about; The police do not know everyone in the area (they obviously did not know you)... The police can run the tag on the car, but it doesn't mean they know YOU are the owner of the car... Leathermans can be weapons... You had a weapon and refused to comply with an officer who is also armed...People burglarize chruches... Leathermans can also be burglary tools... Burglars sleep too (in the oddest of places sometimes)... The church may have an agreement with the police to act on their behalf... IF you think you have been wronged, by all means contact an attorney or the Department's Internal Affairs Division. (Message edited by Paint shaker on September 23, 2012) |
