| Author | Message | ||
     Crackhead |
Well, I am getting tired of window AC units and electric baseboard heat. I have a 1,740 sq ft, 2 story house where the basement is half sunk (about 4 ft underground)and has drop ceiling. So, I could have duck work and blower all within the living space of the house. I live in Maryland about 200 ft from the bay and the ground water is pretty high. There is no gas lines where I live, so my choices are heat pump or geo. Does geothermal make sence for a house this small? I am on a 7,000sq ft lot, so I think drilling is required. I have seen a few of the split ductless systems but I have never heard them in use. What do they sound like squirrel fan or louder? If I go with a standard heat pump, how bad would the temp difference be between the floors? My parents was horrible until they added a second unit for the new addition. Right now we are living in the upper floor because I am redoing the drunken home owners work. So, dust and punching holes in the walls is not a problem. I don't mind paying for quality work that is right. | ||
| Sifo |
Might as well call this the HVAC board! I just asked about ductless AC units on the other thread! Do you have direct access to the shoreline? If you do it might be possible to use that to feed the heat pump on an open loop system. I know my mom had one set up like that. Even with them having to pipe it under the road, it saved money on the installation. Still a lot depends on the expertise of the local installer to know heat pumps well enough to set the system up well. Try to find an installer that does lots of heat pump systems. | ||
| Fahren |
Open loop systems are not ok any more, in MD at least. Figure on $1,500 -200 per well, and one well per ton. If you are in it for the long haul, go for it - MD is the perfect climate for geothermal, and someone has also mentioned the 30% tax credit (that's 30% of the total install cost, not just the equipment cost). I found, living and working on the eastern shore, that almost all good, competent hvac contractors have good, solid experience with geothermal installs by now, and the technology keeps getting better. They are much more standard now than they were, say 10-15 years ago. Ductless splits are good, too - see other thread for comments. | ||
| Sifo |
If he has access to the water, there is no well needed for the open loop. Are there state regs against open loop in MD? | ||
| Fahren |
MD state green police are very strict when it comes to the Chesapeake Bay. | ||
| Sifo |
OK. A heat pump simply circulates the water and adds zero pollutants to it at all. They are also a very "green" type of heating/cooling. Very energy efficient. If they don't have their heads up a certain orifice, they should be encouraging this sort of thing. | ||
| Fahren |
Never mind that tons of chemical fertilizers and Monsanto Round-up are flowing straight from the bay watershed's farms right into the bay and its tributaries..........  (note - why can I never find the smilie icon I'm looking for?..... :- ) | ||
| Fahren |
I'm sure they are all well-meaning bureaucrats, but as you say, with "heads all up certain......." | ||
| Crackhead |
Unfortunaly, I have 2 houses between me and the bay, so no direct shore line access for me. What would be a ball park figure for Geo thermal. I am guessing about 2.4 - 3 ton? Can the Geo thermal unite be zoned? | ||
| Hootowl |
You'd be arrested, imprisoned, raped, raped again, and then tried and convicted for even thinking about sticking a pipe into Puget Sound. (OK, well, maybe not tried.) | ||
| Sifo |
I'm glad some areas make it a bit easier to be environmentally friendly.  | ||
| Hootowl |
Apparently, you can. http://www.ora.wa.gov/swhp/default.asp For a $2,500-$10,000 a year fee. Sort of negates the savings a heat pump provides. | ||
| Sifo |
That makes so much sense to charge so much to be able to discharge the same exact water that has just been extracted from that body of water. I hate bureaucracies! | ||
| Hughlysses |
A heat pump simply circulates the water and adds zero pollutants to it at all. Well, a heat pump does add or take heat away from the water, and this is regulated, requiring permits and such. These regs are aimed at major "thermal polluters" (like water cooled power plants and such) but I guess they don't distinguish based on size. At any rate, even if you could draw water from the bay, you might have major fouling of the heat exchanger in the heat pump which would degrade its performance quickly, so you probably wouldn't want to do it anyway. They do have a similar system where you have a big loop of plastic piping connected to the heat pump that you'd just throw out into the body of water. This means you still have a closed system, which avoids the fouling problems, but I suspect Maryland would regulate that too. | ||
| Fahren |
I lived next to a big wetlands restoration (native shoreline re-generation) outfit, and they wanted to put a closed-loop coil system down at the base of an inlet they had restored out on the shore of their property. These guys do top-notch work, beautiful native-plantings used in vegetative buffers with submerged shelf construction to act as a stormwater surge break (rather than your typical, fairly unattractive rip-rap shoreline). They were not allowed; had to drill 200' deep wells with the heat exchange loops all the way down and up. I guess the NW has Puget Sound, here in the east we have the Chesapeake. | ||
| Sifo |
Whether you are pulling the heat from the ground, air, or the water, does it really make much difference? It still all comes from the closed system called Earth. So we have gotten to the point where we are effectively taxing the heat contained in the ocean. Let's all ponder that for a bit.  | ||
| Chauly |
OK, I did. Now, how can I be an efficient "tax collector"? :-) | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
crackhead the financial end of your question depends largely on total cost of both system and if you can find someone that knows what they are doing with geo. Although once you get past the energy exchange they work exactly the same. So yes a geo system can be zoned. yes they are crazy big more efficient than air-air systems. they in my direct and professional experience are far more durable as well. if you haven't already check out florida heat pump now owned my bosch. really nice hardware. if you don't have access to the bay then and MD has banned pump and dumps(good thing imho) then you still have two options. one is a closed loop 'heat well' gen as mentioned one loop per ton drilled vertically or a standard well with a return well/ injection well. getting in touch with someone at your AHJ will be to your benefit. as well as the standard rule of min of 3 hard quotes. 1700+sq ft does that include basement? not that small of a house really. there is a 6 page debate about the merits of open loop vs closed loop on a tech board a frequent.... i like closed loop as there is not water wasted. with closed loop there is a tendency to have higher inlet water temps which means a drop in efficiency when cooling compared to a well sourced system however you will still be way better than air-air also you can get a de-super heater added at install to help with you hot water needs as well. | ||
| Fast1075 |
If you go with water to air, make sure you specify and GET a titanium heat exchanger, or you may well end up with a several thousand dollar paperweight in a few years. FHP units are built about 45 miles from me. They work well and are durable, but are a blue dyed bitch to work on if the installation is tight. If you are near sea water, have the indoor coil coated to help with corrosion (FHP units use 5xxx series aluminum for their fin plates. It does not play well with salt). | ||
| Skntpig |
+1 Titanium Heat pump. That's what we always use for pools. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Sorry Boogi FHP Bosch are not to be trusted I am a currently involved in a lawsuit against them. They didnt transisition to R 410a well and I have caught them in too many lies. Climate Master which was started by the same folks that later started FHP is building a unit that actually works. I have sold thousands of FHP units never again! R410a has proved a challenge for the industry Heat exchanger and expansion valve tech will be totally different from what is used today. Geo thermal is a very good system just find some one that knows how to design the loops and wells for your area. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Interesting Ken we've not had issues here in n.fl. mine was built before the bocsh days and had a coopernickle coil due to it being an open well. Never leaked a drop never had any fins degrade. Just worked. That's what we sold at work and I can say that I had to order parts for 1 customer that was setting it up for industrial super cooling via chilled glycol | ||
| Kenm123t |
Boogi your on R 22 ? I sold thousands of those. FHPs The Engineer at FHP that did the r410a units couldnt make a living in the field changing filters. | ||
| Aesquire |
It gets down to ground vs. air heatpumps. Cost vs. savings. It can be hard to get a straight answer from the salesman.... for obvious reasons. Thanks for the tips on what to avoid... I'm planning on a split system heatpump, aprox 18,000 btu, for a 1300 sq ft ranch with underfloor water heat. I can't justify the capital costs for a ground loop. However... if current federal administration desires for energy costs continue, it might be justifiable. But I won't be able to afford it. (Message edited by aesquire on August 07, 2012) | ||
| Kenm123t |
18k my living room has two ton. Do you ever see the sun ? | ||
| Blake |
Insulation is good. Our entire house runs cool in Texas on a 2.5 ton unit. | ||
| Aesquire |
Full sun. 1300 sq wee white ranch with slowly improving insulation. Currently using a 10k window unit to cool kitchen/living room, set to 80 during day to control humidity, then down to 77-78 when house occupied, with ceiling fans and circulation fans to cool master bedroom. Good enough for sleeping, but strains a bit on 95+ days. Twice as much will be plenty for my needs, and will add a 9k unit to bedroom if needed. On splits, it seems well worth it to go for the highest seer, and best heat pump. Not that big a price difference between 13 and 20 seer. No ducts... 36k cast iron boiler/underfloor heat. Nice to paddle around barefoot in the a.m. in winter. ( considering more efficient "boiler". about $1k for a decent water heater type, or $3k for really high efficiency stainless steel water heater. Either way I'd be able to dump the electric water heater... aprox $50 a month for that ) | ||
| Kenm123t |
Blake the back of my house opens on to the screened pool deck 80% of that side of the house is glass sliding doors. Its well shaded but havent replaced them with new hurricane rated doors yet. |
