| Author | Message | ||
     Xl1200r |
Ok - band is starting to play out regularly, doing radio rock and pop covers and having a ton of fun. I decided it was time to add some thump to the PA system, so I went shopping for subs. Right now we're running a pair of Italian SRM450v1s for mains and SRM350s for monitors (not neccesarily a Mackie fanboy, but they came up available and in our price range and have done really well). For a sub, I was looking for something that was going to give the kick drum a lot of presence, and filling out the bass guitar is just icing on the cake if it can handle it, but the kick drum is 1st and foremost - this would be for bar gigs, playing for 75-100 people, maybe a little more. We (I) don't have the budget for big, powerful cabs, so I was looking for something reasonably small with a big punch for it's size, power, weight and price. I ended up getting a used Yorkville LS701P (next gen of the LS700P) based on the PA guy's advice at my local music store (he didn't have one to sell, not even sure they carry Yorkville - I got this one used). It's a single 2x10" cab, 1200w and 138db peak, though that's likely in the 100-150hz range and when I crossover at 90hz or so the output will likely be lower. I got this guy more for the overall volume and not so much the tone. If we decide we really need two subs, I'll likely sell this one and get a pair of 15s instead. So now, my next question is where should we put this thing? Front and center? in the back line? Off to the side under one of the mains? We will want to fill the dance floor in front the band first and worry about the rest of the room after. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Really cool to hear you guys are getting regular gigs, that's awesome! I'm not sure about location but I will pass on to a sound guy I know and see what he says  | ||
| Danger_dave |
How many sound guys does it take to change a light bulb? Two......two...two,two,two....two... | ||
| Ourdee |
c cc c c | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Be prepared to move it based on venue. Also remember that low freqs are omnidirectional. The moving it will help it couple to the harmonics of the space. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
do your amps go to 11 and can you play the brown note ? | ||
| Xl1200r |
Boogie - the more reading I do, the more I realize that's going to be the case, especially with only running one sub. What I'm gathering is getting into a corner will generally be the best sound quality and coverage, but this will not always be possible. I know one place we've played (and likely will again) has the stage in a really odd spot, more or less in the middle of the room because you set up in front a half wall, so there are no walls or corners near by. The gig we have next weekend is in a really cool room, I'd say medium-sized bar, high ceilings, but the stage is slightly elevated and from what I could tell in the photos is against a wall on one side. I'm thinking we'll put it on the floor in the corner the stage makes with the wall and see how that sounds and go from there. We were supposed to have sound for that show but something fell through and we're bringing our own. The amps DON'T go to 11, thank god (we're working on our stage volume, surprisingly it's the bassist that's causing the most problems with that, but we've got some things to try to get him to hear himself. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
I got a reply from my friend Dave, he runs his own sound company, he says: Had a look at the gear mentioned...all of it's fine...good middle of the road stuff...no problem to have only one sub, really doesn't matter where it goes other than pretty close to in line left to right with the top boxes...use the built in cross over and adjust as needed... If FOH kick/bass punch is the goal...find a second sub and line both the subs and top boxes up as close to accurate left to right as possible...this will help to induce "coupling"...cabs will link up sonically, increasing perceived output...the closer to being inline the better... Hope that helps Re the bass player - I used to have the same problem, I'd keep turning up because I couldn't hear myself and the bass would push the sound meters over the limit. I worked out the main problem was that I was standing too close to my cab, a 4x10, and the sound was projecting past me. When possible I would try and set my cab on the opposite side of the drummer to me, pointed a little across the stage so I could hear what everybody else heard. To memory it needed to be 6 feet or more away from me. For smaller gigs using a single 12" sometimes worked better because it didn't project so far. If you can get the bass in the monitors even better. Hope that helps too.} (Message edited by lemonchili_x1 on July 06, 2012) | ||
| Xl1200r |
I won't be using the built-in cross over on the sub box as it's not very good - for starters it's not a cross over that impacts the thru-puts to the mains, it's just a low pass filter for the subs itself. The other problem is that the ramp is too shallow and you'll get a lot of 150hz junk in there even when it's set at 100hz crossover. He wouldn't know any of this by a spec sheet - I found this out only via lots of forum research and other's experience. Luckily, neither of things really matter because I'm planning on the sub in an aux-fed arrangement (so the thru-puts won't be used), and my PreSonus Studio Live can do a makeshift crossover with all of the HP filters and EQs it has on board. For his comments regarding getting a second sub - is he just referring to a sub-pole-main mounting arrangement? Not following what he's saying... I think our first try on the bass to get his cab up off the floor. When we're bring our own sound and the stage sound IS the FOH sound (for the most part), he's running his full stack and has no issues. But if we have a full PA and a sound guy, he just brings the 410. We've only done this once so far and, with it sitting on the ground, he couldn't hear himself. He bought a workbench stand thing that will elevate it so the top of the cab is about even with his face and puts the sound closer to his ears, which should help as this is the kind of arrangement I see used most around here. We also talked about cross the amps (for guitars as well) across the stage to get more wash for the stage and less sound out front so the sound guys can do their jobs. BTW - I'm keeping this off of Facebook because I don't want them to know about it - I was planning on surprising them with it, haha | ||
| Ratbuell |
I'm in the same boat, just getting back into "the biz" with a couple local bands. Lately I've been using a Carvin self-powered sub, single 18", and it THUMPS. I did an outdoor gig last night and in the sunlight I could see that poor cone dancing back and forth so much, I thought it was gonna launch through the grille! But the kick and the floor tom were really punching through, even back to about 50' from the stage. For a single-sub, homebrew FOH setup (mains were JBL stacks, 2-12" with a horn), it sounded pretty darn good. For sub placement, corners will fill the room best...but will also fill your vocal mics and can feed back. The Carvin, I tend to run on level "3" and it's plenty for a bar gig. Last night, outdoors on a gazebo, I "pushed" it to 5. Gives me enough headroom at the desk if I need it, but doesn't give a headache or overpower the rest. Be careful putting it in a corner - definitely do a full-level sound check. I put the Carvin down-right stage corner, under the main FOH speaker for that side, and I mix from house right so I hear a good balance. May have to push the levels a bit more, but it's cleaner to the mics and more "focused" for the audience (sound all coming from one direction). Room corners also tend to make them "boomy", which can get into muddy sound and low-mid feedback; putting it on the downstage edge you can get some nice clean punch out of it. For your bass player...I have the same issue with the lead guitarist. His amp ONLY goes to 11. So, I turned it around facing upstage. He still hears it bouncing off the upstage wall, but the audience gets a little relief and I actually get to mix a good level instead of having to mix up to match his Wembley-levels of noise. Could I make it work without facing his amp upstage? Sure...at 1,200 seat theatre SPL's, in a 75-person bar (and then nobody dances - and as a single sound guy I wanna see drunk chicks dancing!!!). Also - do you run your bass player through a mic? Or a D/I box? I'll take a D/I any day, no question. Face his crate upstage, run him through a D/I, and I bet you'll be in heaven Either that, or just...take his crate away, and feed him a nice monitor mix (I run self-powered Peavey single 12" 2-way wedges that I've literally dropped off moving trucks and they still work great, and like the Carvin sub - I run them at a max of "5" for most gigs. They rock. Feed him all he wants through his monitor mix, with no crate, through a D/I...and you have TOTAL control. And keep reminding the band - when they piss you off, you have the "mute" button!! | ||
| Xl1200r |
...but will also fill your vocal mics and can feed back. I have a high pass filter running on all of the vocal mics. RIght now they're all set 100hz or so, so they shouldn't get any subwoofer bleed. Also - do you run your bass player through a mic? Or a D/I box? He has a DI output on the back of his amp that we (and sound guys) use. We played a lot last night during rehearsal with trying to get our stage volume down and getting the bassist as quiet as we could while he could still hear himself. We had him just playing through the 410 elevated up, but he was still having a hard time with the mid-frequency bass notes (he plays a 6 string, so stuff on the 3-4-5 string were the problem). I think his hearing is shot, but it is what it is. I took a signal from his amp and ran him into a monitor and it helped a ton. He's not in there very much, but it's the right frequency and pointed right at his face for it to help a lot. We're in a small practice room and set up like on a stage (i'm on one side with the backline, everyone else is on the other side facing away from me), so I get an over-abundance of LF sound just because I'm up against the wall, but otherwise we're mixing very well and at a lower overall volume which I think the sound guys will love us for. | ||
| Ratbuell |
a lower overall volume which I think the sound guys will love us for Yes...yes we do It's always nicer to be able to have headroom and be able to turn everyone up as needed. UP, the sound guy can do. DOWN...not so much, and nothing sucks more than having to mix up to That One Guy who's either deaf, or has an ego the size of Cuba. Make sure to point out to your bassist how many more people are dancing, and down front, once you start playing with him at his reduced SPL's. Glad it's working out for you! And be careful with the high-pass on the vocals...depending on the singer and the song, you may lose some fullness in the vox. | ||
| Oz666 |
a lower overall volume which I think the sound guys will love us for Ditto, yes p l e a s e ... as low as you can play and still keep the energy. Any FOH person will be VERY happy, be able to do a better mix and give you better sounding monitors. Try pointing guitar amps and such cross stage and angling them up. Remember, you don't have ears in you knees. Think of them just like a vocal monitor. Subs - 2x18 lots of power, bigger boxes, maybe goes a little lower... 2x15 lighter, easier to move, quicker... 20 years+ at FOH, small to medium rooms - used all sorts of PA gear, learned to do a lot with a little. Try to demo/borrow/test before you buy. [I want bag end or sound physics lab subs... out of my budget,too] Oz | ||
| Xl1200r |
Holy balls, this thing makes some noise. It's about the size I was expecting, and little lighter than I was figuring on. It's a used unit, but aside from the metal corners having some scratches, it looks nearly new - I think I made out pretty good on it. It took some playing around to get it to sound nice. At first we were running it Line Level and the gain on the sub couldn't be turned much past the minimum setting before the limit light would come on all the time. Finally figured out it needs a speaker level signal and I have it just past 0db and sounds much better. Also turned it facing into the corner, which in my small practice room made a big difference. The frequency boost on the sub is set around 55-60hz and the HF roll off is all the way up as I take care of this better on the board. When we started with it I was a little let down - it sounded no better to me than my home theater sub. But it's pretty dialed in at this point. I'm running this guy aux-fed and only sending the kick drum to it right now. The EQ is turned all the way down up to about 36hz, then ramps up, makes a nice smiley and ramps back all the way down by 120hz. It gets kind of boomy and ringy if you let it go much higher than that. Really digging it - can't wait to get it into a bigger room and let it breathe - I'm certain we get some frequency cancellation in that room (being so small), and with so many bodies, amps, speakers, carpet, and drop-ceiling, it just sucks up the bass and kick it in the nuts. |
