| Author | Message | ||
     Bob_thompson |
First does anybody not think that we could use about 15-20 more H.P. to be more competitive. I think our riders would want more, most riders/drivers do. Did anybody catch Blake Young's right hand trying to wring out, about 5 times twisting the throttle to get a little more out of his bike trying to catch Josh Hayes. Funny! Second, many engines produced are not at their greatest state of H.P. until brought to that for racing purposes and many times changed for specific races/rules. Now maybe AMA does not allow much changing and I believe they (AMA) only allow certain changes to a "stock" production bike so.....where are our 1190RS engines in "state of tune"? It almost surely, after decades, the R1's for AMA racing are developed to their max. So, there is probably quite a bit we could do to these Rotax engines to hopefully get that extra H.P., or at least some. And what about ride by wire and traction control, Good/Bad? It appears Young didn't care for it on his Suzuki. And finally does anybody think, Erik, being a racers racer would ever go to another engine configuration just to win races? I believe he started with a two stroke four, didn't he? After the great showing for EBR the folks at Hero must be beaming with the latest coverage. Will that mean much more money for research and development? Exciting times may be ahead. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
it's evolving at every track regarding the states of tune the more seat time that slick and may get the more is learned and so on. Michael is a wizard... | ||
| Darth_villar |
More HP won't hurt, that is for sure. As far as "to be competitive" is concerned, I'm fairly certain two podiums is damn well competitive. I don't know Erik personally, but I believe from what I know of him, that he would use the best conceivable engine to accomplish his set goals. I do not believe he is bound to any specific type of anything, except quality. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
this is the first year the R1 and Josh Hayes has an electronics package on the bike and look at how he's doing. If they aren't cheating some how (and no, I'm not implying they are) then that answers the traction control package. Horsepower is always a bonus. Maybe the electronics packing and its ability to apply the HP at the right time IS better than relying on the human equation. The 1190 is a great motor. I think with more work and some more $$, they will be competitive at any track. | ||
| Froggy |
Are they still running that ballast to meet the minimum weight? I'm sure getting rid of that would help, but rules are rules. More horsepower won't let you shave your lap times in the braking zones. | ||
| Slaughter |
Rules govern most of those questions. Remember, those engines weren't race legal until they'd sold a certain number of street legal machines with those specific changes. They might want to do a bunch of development testing before they incorporate those changes into the NEXT 100 streebikes before those changes would be legal. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
froggy negative on the ballast | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
the rule book is on the AMA site and all the allowances etc are fairly well explained in it, still some grey  . it'd be a good idea for folks here to read the superbike section as according to the rules there are a lot of things that are allowed to be changed/massaged/modified and even more things that aren't. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I was glancing through this month's Cycle World this morning, which has an article on the Road Atlanta race. There's a fairly long blurb about EBR and Hero's involvement. On the last page of the article (the page isn't numbered for some reason) it says this:
That sounds like we might see traction control on the EBR bikes pretty soon, which is apt to help them significantly. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
in a video posted recently, May hinted to traction control being there in the future | ||
| Ourdee |
Traction control on a full on race bike is crazy expensive compared to what you find on street bikes. | ||
| Svh |
Ourdee you saw EBR's pit setup this year. They are no longer the little engine that could. Moving up big time and a whole lot of HERO $$$ I would assume. For those that saw the small grass roots efforts of the past 2 years be prepared to be aMAYzed at the new digs for EBR. I know they are not on par, $$$ wise, to the big 2 teams but I suspect TC is coming soon. | ||
| Sparky |
Ralph Sheheen talked with Erik about the 1190 and mentioned on SPEED that there is a lot of potential inside that engine that he hasn't opened up yet and they are working on the reliability and performance of the bike. So after this development period and Erik tweaks some of that untapped potential, we're going to see a faster, quicker and more stable 1190RS winning races. | ||
| Court |
What if The Elves looked at existing traction control systems . . . found them, as a result of the hundreds of thousands of $$$ and the weight . . . to be lacking. Suppose they applied their engineering excellence and decided to move the technology. . . . I'm just thinking to myself . . . . and I have no "inside info" . . but I've never seen Erik or any of The Elves "hurry to catch up". It's exciting . . . particularly given a couple things I saw last Thursday. (Just to clarify . . what I saw was some familiar faces as the band reforms) | ||
| Fast1075 |
Rulebook says stock size and weight valves. Cam lift stock, duration can be modified. Unrestricted compression. Porting, welding and modification to the heads, including valve seats and guides is allowed. Within those limits, there is more there. The trick is balancing cylinder pressure, RPM and reliability. No galling valve stems or rocking pistons | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
that and from what i am told the sunoco race fuel they are using is ~98octane who knows what all is in it but there is a limit on compression just not by the rules per se | ||
| D_adams |
I wouldn't mind seeing a v-4 configuration myself. Best of both worlds, Aprilia did it. Grunt of a v-twin down lower, top end power of a IL4. Makes the motor a little more complicated and wider, but might be worth the trade off. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I'm with Court on this one. Again - no inside information, but if ever there was a bunch who loved reinventing the wheel (and getting it RIGHT).... I do remember talking with Geoff last year at NJMP, he was saying they had some traction issues. I told his wife to feed him more pasta right before the races...but unfortunately I think that "when in Rome", they're going to have to get some sort of electronics like the rest of the field. As far as HP...I have met Erik, and while I lay no claim to "knowing" the man, I feel pretty safe saying he won't just go balls-out and build a crazy-powerful motor that lasts for 2 laps. They were collecting data last year. This year, they're wicking it up, tweaking here and there, and seeing how reliable they can keep it while upping the power. Smart racing (if there is such a thing as "smart" racing lol). And I'm certain all those points of data will find their way, in one form or another, into future street bikes  | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Rat yes it's always a balance usable power vs durability. sure an 1190 could be built to make 300hp but for how long and would it be a help or a hindrance if it's not controllable it's not only worthless it can even become dangerous. as was mentioned above in this thread and others like it there are vast quantities of data being collected analyzed and that is then turned around for the next track and so on. i could make a wag at the #'s the race bikes are laying down but that's all it would be. i can say for sure that it's a 'good' bit more than the street bikes. | ||
| Davegess |
Suppose they applied their engineering excellence and decided to move the technology. . . . Those folks at EBR won't think outside box or take any chances, they are a conservative bunch and will remain so. Opps forgot my meds this morning. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I watched Geoff in the infield at Daytona. The bike would go into tire spin a fair distance after getting upright coming out of the turn. That says huge midrange torque to me. Move the curve up and limit the midrange a bit to make it less tricky to ride in the middle, and put the power up higher and gear it to advantage. Danny winged a motor looking for more top power. That is the fun of tuning. You get to move the power around | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
funny thing on the wheelspin topic is that the ebr bikes are using custom wheels out of japan to keep the wheels from spinning inside the tires... our Local guy Higbee he was having that same issue in Sonoma and a more cost effective solution was thought up to avoid the expense of the change to the custom wheels | ||
| Ratbuell |
Actually (if we're taking this past weekend at RA), during his grid interview on Speed Sunday Danny said he popped the motor on a downshift / down too many gears and over-revving it. Unless I misunderstood his on-screen interview. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Fast1075: "Move the curve up and limit the midrange a bit to make it less tricky to ride in the middle, and put the power up higher and gear it to advantage. Danny winged a motor looking for more top power." One of the things I was thinking about when I asked if anyone thought EBR might move to a different engine configuration is just what makes H.P., i.e. torque x rpm's in a certain formula. Now I think most will agree about the limitations of rpm capabilities in a V-twin, even a short stroke oversquare one and why the IL4's with 4 cylinders, super short strokes and very light pistons, rods and valve train, can spin to 14-18K rpm's and make great H.P. EBR could definitely change cam timing and do porting to extract more H.P. up higher somewhat, but going back to the H.P.formula with AMA rules, if correct, what can they do for stock pistons, rods and valve weights except higher # valve springs and other items to gain the needed rpm's to make that H.P.? Now I have seen on board graphics of some WSB and MotoGP Ducaties that spin to about 16K but that is with almost unlimited engine specs. and Desmo valve train. Still just wondering. And with all that said they are on the podium "already" with what they have. Just outstanding and shows much about Erik and the Elves. What a year so far! | ||
| Reepicheep |
To go to high revs, you have to go to short stroke. One key limit I think you otherwise hit is lubrication film strength limits on the ring / cylinder wall interface. The best oil in the world can only support X feet per second. An inline four has twice as many pistons, so each moves through half as much distance per revolution. Shorter stroke can help a twin (wider piston with shorter throw for same displacement), but then you start getting really bad air / fuel mixes, and I think its much harder to make a really wide light and reliable piston than a narrow one. | ||
| Svh |
To quote a fellow EBR racer "He put it up to F1 level rpm on the downshift and floated the valves" | ||
| Davegess |
The very best in the business are working on getting the maximum out of this engine. They want to keep total reliability AND reach the needed HP. They want to do it without grenading engines in public. They may blow a few in the dyno room but we won't hear about it. I bet a few bucks that this time next year folks will be saying "those EBRs must be cheatin', did you see how much faster he got up that hill?" EBR will find the horsepower. Two years from dead to a podium, not too shabby. | ||
| Reepicheep |
OK, there is a T Shirt if I *ever* heard one... | ||
| Bads1 |
They EBR and HERO will make this bike reliable first (Proven). Then slowly evolve the bike. The GSXR is actually a bike that is long in the teeth. The bike hasn't changed much since 2005 and its ready for lots of updates. The R1 is actually a newer design engine and all and Yamaha is doing a fantastic job along with Hayes developing it. I think more is to come from them. I seen Young cranking on the throttle. Not to catch Hayes but to just beat Herrin on the straight. The GIXXER is a getting old. The Yamaha doesn't even use cable on the throttle anylonger. | ||
| Scottorious |
+ on a shirt idea. Id buy it up. |
