| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
So with more evidence coming forward as the legal process moves forward here's where we are... Zimmerman's medical reports have been released, confirming that he had his nose broken and lacerations on the back of his head, as well as various other bruising consistent with being attacked. http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical- report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353 532#.T7PKvMWlEnA Martin's autopsy has also been released detailing only two injuries, the fatal gun shot wound and torn skin on his knuckles, consistent with beating someone with his fists. http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-result s-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/ Meanwhile the federal government is contemplating charging Zimmerman with hate crime charges even though the evidence is overwhelming that it was a clear case of self defense. http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/fbi-seeks-char ge-george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/ How did we ever get to this point?  | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
State prosecutors said Zimmerman gave several inconsistent statements to Sanford police, which is, in part, their basis for charging him with second-degree murder. that concerns me | ||
| Sifo |
State prosecutors said Zimmerman gave several inconsistent statements to Sanford police, which is, in part, their basis for charging him with second-degree murder. that concerns me I've heard that. I've seen zero details on it. From what I've seen the basics of his story, being one of self defense have been very consistent, starting with the 911 call in real time right through when this became a media circus. I would be pretty surprised if there weren't some minor details that have been inconsistent. The point is however that his story of self defense is consistent with virtually all verifiable facts, that have been made available. That's a whole lot of consistency. A prosecutor going against the facts to bend to public pressure concerns me. | ||
| Teeps |
Sifo Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 How did we ever get to this point? A slow news day. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I took my CCW class shortly after this story broke, so I was paying close attention. One of the key points brought up was considering what will happen after a CCW event of some kind. A key point made was that you will be under extraordinary stress and that stress will make it very hard to communicate accurately, succinctly, and effectively. In other words, if anyone *fails* to make some kind of statements that people could interpret as inconsistent, then *they* are likely guilty. As the only person likely to be able to pull that off is either a trained and seasoned professional, or a psychopathic premeditating murderer. I think the "inconsistent statements" bs is just how the prosecutors are covering their asses for filing charges they know aren't justificied, but that they have to file for reasons unrelated to seeking justice. At this point, once the media has butchered the story as badly as they have, and once the people in the big money race baiting business have made you a hobby, a trial is probably your best option out of many bad ones in front of you. The terrifying part of would be is that if the pre-trial process are no longer subject to the rule of law, why would you expect that the trial and post trial process would have any integrity. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
i feel you Sifo on the surface and i admittedly haven't been following this story much it appears to be cut and dry self defense, weapon used against Zimmerman being the sidewalk when used as a deadly weapon thus authorizing equal force to be applied. however there are always three sides. because the kid is dead he can't speak, the physical evidence will for him and that may or may not be beneficial to Zimmerman with context being able to be bent. all that being said it's actually a good thing that this is a media circus because it is going to help shed light on the fact that there is as much justice as you can afford, unless there is public outcry. our legal system sucks. | ||
| Reepicheep |
And i have just a little experience in the matter. When I got hit by a reckless and careless left turner last year, and was there being interviewed by the cop on scene, I was amazed at how stupid I suddenly became. I knew it was her fault, but I was sitting there with a massive adrenline dump (and a fractured pelvis as it turns out). Officer: "How fast were you going". Me: "Beats me, I didn't have time to look at the speedometer in the instant of time between when I became aware the woman was about to kill me and before I was doing a somersault over her trunk". Officer: "Do you mean you were going 25 miles per hour in this 25 mile per hour zone?" Me: "Uh, yes, that's what I meant". Officer: "Let me note that in the report." OK, that's not really how the conversation went, but you get my point. Before the media made this a tool for selling media, the process was going pretty well. The real legal question here is if Zimmerman did anything to escalate the situation. If he did, he has very limited protection under the stand your ground law. If he didn't, then he had a clear, obvious, and objectively provable reason to believe his life was in danger. | ||
| Sifo |
weapon used against Zimmerman being the sidewalk when used as a deadly weapon thus authorizing equal force to be applied. You have a very strange view of self defense. Since when are you limited to only "equal force". You are allowed to defend yourself from harm. Period. | ||
| Sifo |
If he did, he has very limited protection under the stand your ground law. Stand your ground laws have little to do with this situation. It's only an issue because that is the self defense law that FL has. It would be an issue if Zimmerman had shot Martin for simply approaching him. The fact is that Zimmerman defended himself after the attack had started and realized the attack was continuing. Any self defense law should protect Zimmerman in this situation, assuming the self defense law doesn't require you to be beaten to death prior to defending yourself. Illinois seems to fall into that category.  | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
you're right i live in a world that i seek to achieve balance. i'm not looking to shoot someone that isn't going to kill me... now if i feel like i or someone in my vicinity is in mortal danger then yes they will get 15rds of .45acp hydrashock center mass then i am going to exchange to my backup mag and re-assess. i was pointing out that a deadly weapon was being used against zimmerman. since you asked. | ||
| Sifo |
But my point is simply that just because someone is only breaking your knees with a tire iron, you aren't limited to "equal" force. In the Zimmerman case the requirements to justify self defense have obviously been surpassed. Despite this he finds himself on trial for murder and the feds may step in with hate crimes charges that could carry the death penalty. This is insanity. | ||
| Prowler |
None of this hospital report crap matters. He WAS stalking this kid. Did he push or shove this kid prior to the start of the actual "fight"? Who knows? Maybe, maybe not. Because the kid is dead, nobody will ever know what really happened. Was this Zimmerman guy in the "right" to stalk this kid in the first place? Who was actually practicing "self defense"? Zimmerman or the kid? Did Zimmerman go after the kid and then decide to shoot him because he was losing the fight? There are a lot of unanswered questions....... and there's only one person's side of the story we'll ever hear. (just like it's almost always "pilot error" when a plane crashes and the pilot's dead.) If it was my kid walking home and being stalked by some "guy" and then killed, I'd be wanting blood. (Message edited by prowler on May 16, 2012) | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
i look at like this the charges being filed ensures attention to detail that may have otherwise been overlooked. quite frankly if zimmermans story turns out to be false then he likely does need to be put in a box. if his story pans out then charges either a: dismissed or b: found innocent at trial. i mean really this is florida after all where a woman can murder her baby and get off with it surely in this age of 'its for the children' someone in their late teens is worth less than a baby right? as for the not limited to equal force as it was explained to me by a veteran leo yeah in practice that pretty much is the limit to the law here. i personally avoid dodgy situations and places and may or may not be armed so i'm comfy. just remember always we do not have a justice system we have a legal system. | ||
| Sifo |
None of this hospital report crap matters. Probably not if you aren't interested in the truth. These reports detail specific injuries to both people that tell a large portion of the story. One person has injuries to his knuckles. The other has injuries to his face. I guess you could try to argue that Zimmerman bead Martins fists bloody with his face. That's pretty weak though. He WAS stalking this kid. What do you base this on? He called the police while in his vehicle. Is that stalking? Early in the call Zimmmeran says that Martin is checking him out, then coming up to him. Only after that does Martin take off running. Zimmerman did follow for about 10 seconds, and stopped when police told him they didn't need him to do that. From there they discuss where to meet the police that are responding. Sorry, but the "stalking" thing just doesn't hold water. Here's the unedited 911 call for you to ignore again... There are a lot of unanswered questions....... and there's only one person's side of the story we'll ever hear. There really aren't many unanswered questions left at this point. There's actually quite a few sides of this story told by a variety of witnesses and physical evidence. So far it all matches with Zimmerman's story. That's pretty overwhelming evidence from what I can see. If it was my kid walking home and being stalked by some "guy" and then killed, I'd be wanting blood. If that were true, I have no doubt you would want blood. 1) That is an emotional response, and has no place in justice. 2) The evidenced doesn't support the stalking claim. In fact the evidence supports that contact between the two of them had broken off and Martin came back and attacked Zimmerman while Zimmerman was waiting for the police to show up. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
None of this hospital report crap matters. He WAS stalking this kid. Did he push or shove this kid prior to the start of the actual "fight"? Who knows? Maybe, maybe not. Because the kid is dead, nobody will ever know what really happened. That's called reasonable doubt. | ||
| Sifo |
That's called reasonable doubt. That provides reasonable doubt that Zimmerman might be guilty of wrong doing. It's also totally based on speculation. Prosecution for murder should be based on something more than mere speculation that someone may have done wrong. | ||
| Orman1649 |
Zimmerman will get off and there will be huge riots instigated by the racists Jesse & Al. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Justice doesn't actually exist. | ||
| Slaughter |
Wow - folks are pretending "we" are a court of law and are presenting "evidence" and are making "conclusions" as a result and talking as if this somehow all applies to the ACTUAL events and the EVENTUAL trial. (wait, it IS the net after all) | ||
| Macbuell |
The DA filed charges because that is what the politicians wanted to quiet the public outrage. I don't see how he can be convicted of 2nd degree murder. There are just too many questions and too much evidence that actually supports his story. Now, he did exercise poor judgment that set the whole series of events in motion and for that he is probably guilty of some lesser crime. I'm no legal expert so I have no idea of what that crime would be. But the 2nd degree murder charge was an overreach brought on by public outrage. If they charge him and lose they can always say they tried whereas bringing no charges would have left the race baiters and the rest of the critics with a ton of ammo. | ||
| Macbuell |
By the way, I hate to bring Politics into this but Obama really does deserve some blame for throwing fuel onto the fire, Mr. Uniter in Chief. The whole press conference where he said Trayvor could have been his son was a very bad idea unless you are looking to incite racial unrest. Oh wait, nevermind. It's nice to know our POTUS is above that kind of thing. | ||
| Sifo |
Wow - folks are pretending "we" are a court of law and are presenting "evidence" and are making "conclusions" as a result and talking as if this somehow all applies to the ACTUAL events and the EVENTUAL trial. (wait, it IS the net after all) More accurately stated... The state has released the evidence against the accused as required by law so that the people can see that justice is being correctly applied, or if we are living in a state of tyranny. It appears that we are living in a state of tyranny. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Have you read the report on the cop that kept telling the parents charges are pending. He pushed this case to get Zimmerman charged. His reason Zimmerman lead a drive to have said officer charged with the beating of WHO ? A black teenager! As for the profiling charge and race baiting Zimmerman is mixed race some of which is black as well. As to the stalking charge BS you dont call 911 and tell a dispatcher what your doing. Your reporting questionable behaviour. The prosecutor wants to build a career off this case. The judge that finally recused herself sent Zimmerman to her Hubbies law firm. Reason once he is charged you can sue his HOA and every one in the development for every thing they have. Martin thought he could beat the old short dude and get away with it Dont start the racist bs with me my step son is mixed race nearly as dark as Martin I have dealt with stalkers From my hoa board chasing him with cars. I know both sides of this game | ||
| Aesquire |
What we KNOW is that Martin was committing battery on Zimmerman. We KNOW, now, the injuries involved, some. We KNOW what was said to 911. We also KNOW that some people are using this for their own, presumably evil purposes, ( the revs come to mind ) and we KNOW that the deliberate incitment to riot by those evil men has led to death threats on people involved. We KNOW there is a drive to lynch Zimmerman. We also KNOW that the incitment to riot has led to multiple cases of horrific assault and battery, probable attempted murder, across America. We do NOT know the exact details of the actual confrontation after the 911 call, from Zimmerman. Understand the difference between facts and speculation and outright hate filled lies. Some of you are stepping over that line. Grow up. | ||
| Sifo |
We do NOT know the exact details of the actual confrontation after the 911 call, from Zimmerman. We do know some of that though. We KNOW contact between Zimmerman and Martin had broken off and that Zimmerman was discussing were to meet the police. This doesn't fit well with a man who is looking to do harm to someone. We KNOW from witnesses that there were cries for help and Martin was seen on top of Zimmerman. We KNOW the witness account is in line with Zimmerman's story. We KNOW that the girl that was talking on the phone to Martin said he wasn't going to run (despite her telling him to just run) and said that he was going to confront this person. This also fits with Zimmerman's story that Martin came back after contact was broken. What we don't KNOW is a single thing that points to anything other than self defense. This case should never have been brought against Zimmerman base on what is KNOWN. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
The way the story came to the forefront is as if the media was giving the president a golden opportunity to lead and demand justice to get his poll numbers up and take minds off of the economy and the increase in cost of living. The media and celebrities are so heavily invested in their verdict of Zimmerman like their made up vision of this president that they cannot possibly look at this case objectively because they've announced the verdict basically before all the evidence. Just like they propped up BO before really doing their research. An act of desperation after two failed presidential elections. Now this "white Latino" registered democrat has the full weight of progressive racial politics staring down at him. | ||
| Bandm |
From the beginning I thought this to be a clear cut case of self defense. Now that parts of the autopsy report are coming out, I see one thing that is inconsistent with Zimmerman's story. "Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report." In my opinion you can't shoot someone who is on top of you, beating you with his fists, from “intermediate range”. I would expect to see contact, very close, close, short, but not intermediate range. "The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch in size – on his left ring finger below the knuckle." does not equal "Zimmerman bead Martins fists bloody with his face". Boxers and MMA wear gloves to protect the hands, not the face, more likely Zimmerman's injuries were caused by an elbow or knee, if not by being pushed to the sidewalk. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows?lite (Message edited by bandm on May 17, 2012) | ||
| Sifo |
I see one thing that is inconsistent with Zimmerman's story. "Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report." That is an inconsistency with Zimmerman's story. It is also inconsistent with the story of the witness that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. Given that the range given in the autopsy report is a judgement call by the examiner based on what the can observe, my first question is what did the examiner have to observe that lead to this conclusion. Did he examine the clothing that would have caught the bulk of the powder burns at close range? I don't have the answer to that. I also haven't verified that the autopsy actually said that. This seems to be being reported by the same folks that edited the 911 tape to have Zimmerman saying "he's acting suspicious, he looks black". Forgive me for being slightly suspicious of this report at this time. | ||
| Prowler |
Did you actually listen to the 911 call? Where do you get that he STOPPED when the police told him that he didn't need to follow this kid? Sounds to me like he was on the run (or at least walking fast) following the kid. If he was in his car, why would he tell the officer to call him so he could tell him where he was when he arrived (i.e. not in his car, I would think). He didn't want to say his complete address on the phone because he didn't know where exactly the kid was. If the kid was running away from him and he was in his car, why would he be worried that the kid would hear him say his address? It sounds to me like he was walking or running after the kid while on the phone. (listen to his breathing, does that sound like he's sitting in his car?) If he was sitting in his car, did the kid smash his car window and drag him out of the car and start beating him? A lot of the accounts told don't make a lot of sense. When you are following someone with a GUN, you have a lot more responsibility as to what you're going to do with it. Zimmerman obviously should not have been out there in the first place. If he was in his car, he should have driven away once he realized the kid was coming over to him. He made no attempt to leave (from what I've heard). We were told during our concealed carry class that if you are following someone with a gun, you are opening yourself up to probable legal issues should something happen. It's too bad that it had come to this, but carrying a gun is not to be taken lightly.....from the comments he was making while out there, it sounds like he was looking for trouble and he found it. | ||
| Sifo |
Did you actually listen to the 911 call? Sure did. Sounds like you listened to a different version though. Where do you get that he STOPPED when the police told him that he didn't need to follow this kid? 1) He stated he stopped. 2) His breathing returns to normal as he stops running. 3) The wind noise on the phone dies down. 4) He has a fairly lengthy conversation with the officer on the phone about where to meet with the responding officer AFTER he stopped his pursuit. Sounds to me like he was on the run (or at least walking fast) following the kid. That's true from the point where you can hear him getting out of his car until immediately after the officer tells him "We don't need you to do that". The pursuit lasts about 10 seconds, total. If he was in his car, why would he tell the officer to call him so he could tell him where he was when he arrived (i.e. not in his car, I would think). Who claimed he was in his car? This seems to be a detail that came from your imagination from what I can tell. He didn't want to say his complete address on the phone because he didn't know where exactly the kid was. Is not knowing where the kid is consistent with continuing to chase him? This is while having a discussion on where to have the officer meet him. If the kid was running away from him and he was in his car, why would he be worried that the kid would hear him say his address? It sounds to me like he was walking or running after the kid while on the phone. (listen to his breathing, does that sound like he's sitting in his car?) Again, where did you get this from? On the issues of concealed carry, no doubt that you also carry a great responsibility. I'm not clear that it means you must refrain from interaction with a person who may be engaged in unusual/suspicious behavior such as slowly wandering out in the rain. I'm not saying that Zimmerman made the best of choices, especially looking at it all in hindsight, but he certainly has the right to defend himself from a brutal attack, that there is no evidence presented was provoked by Zimmerman. |
