| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Well I've certainly noted several times around here that liberals have a habit of misstating the views of conservatives. Now it's confirmed by science, with some ideas on why. Liberals or Conservatives: Who’s Really Close-Minded?
Thoughts? | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Liberalism is a mental disorder. Everyone knows that. Don't they?  | ||
| Aesquire |
I take some exception to that. As a Liberal, ( not bleeding heart, I take pills for that ) but Anti-Progressive, I see that on some issues the close mindedness can be equally bad on either side of the social/political divide. For example, sexual freedom freaks some people out... both Conservative and Liberal. I think some people just like to be freaked out, and some just like to stick their nose in where it doesn't belong. ( and it do no harm do as you will..... is really good philosophy, IMHO ) Mean people suck. Period. Nosy, uptight people freak out when you even say suck. &^%*( them. Progressives OTOH, suck a lot. Conservative donate so much more to charity than Progressives, it's pretty obvious that the "for their own good" thing is just an excuse to be a--holes. Then again, I could be having a communication problem with the word "liberal".  | ||
| Aesquire |
That helps explain why a conservative’s reaction to a liberal critique often isn’t “you’re wrong.” It’s “you don’t even know what I’m trying to say.” Haidt’s research seems to show that this reaction is warranted. Good line. Hardline Conservatives are sane? ( I'm talking the ones who want to go back to the 8th century when things were "better"..... like Islamic Jihadi. ) | ||
| Gregtonn |
"Hardline Conservatives..." Please define what you think that means. G | ||
| Gregtonn |
I thought this was a very significant point. "If you’re a conservative who lives in a major metropolitan area or who simply reads the New York Times, you get used to being outnumbered by liberals. Liberals, by contrast, get used to being surrounded by other liberals, both in person and in culture and the media. As a result, liberals speak their minds freely, often in ways that are harshly condemnatory of conservatives and their stands on issues. As a conservative, you can defend your values against friends and acquaintances who essentially just called you stupid and evil or you can keep quiet." G | ||
| Aesquire |
Hardline Conservatives? In this case, those with an unrealistic belief in a mythical past. ( at this point I'm fairly certain you are not self identifying with this group... right? ) To obfuscate... Happy Days wasn't so idyllic in the real world. The imagined purity of 8th century Islam is pretty mythical, as is the good old days in the Soviet Union..... Consider political craziness on a spiral cylinder, instead of a line. You get weird overlaps as the busybodies line up with ( sometimes opposite ) "solutions". Note that hitler and stalin, while enemies, were both authoritarian to an extreme, and leftist in ideology. Just as authoritarian but with radically different ideology would be the Kings of France and the Committee of Public Safety..... You can simplify it down to people who want to tell you what to do, and people who have no such desire. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"You can simplify it down to people who want to tell you what to do, and people who have no such desire." So which of those is conservative and which is liberal? G | ||
| Aesquire |
That's Bi-label. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I have an undergraduate degree with an emphasis in Soviet Economics. My understanding of the other side is better than their own. You wanna battle Progressive (Regressive) Marxist tendencies and Rhetoric - better be prepared to do it in source text. | ||
| Aesquire |
My dislike of neo-marxism comes from study. The CPUSA was very helpful to a high school student who wanted to understand... they turned me on to Alinsky, and Alinsky revealed the truth behind the curtain. Lie. The very nature of dialectic materialism is that the argument is the reality. ( it is not ) and the technique is to ask the questions that you can answer with your lie. ( if it was true, you wouldn't need the technique ) I admit I was never all that good at the technique. It is very close to the system used in therapy, where you ask questions to elicit the self realization of the patient. But that is intended as a good thing. Closer still is recovered memory therapy, which can, and has been, misused, horribly. ( though the number of people falsely accused and lives destroyed is minute compared to marxism. The number one murderer in history. ) | ||
| Sifo |
Hardline Conservatives are sane? ( I'm talking the ones who want to go back to the 8th century when things were "better"..... like Islamic Jihadi. ) I'm a bit confused by what you intended to convey with that too. I think part of the problem is that "conservatism" imply a desire to not change from a set of ideals. This makes a modern political conservative in the US who's ideals are the Constitution VERY different from an Islamic conservative who's ideals are an 8th century mythical past. Do you see the sort of "hardline conservatives" that you describe in mainstream political life? About the most extreme conservative I can think of would be Ron Paul. I sure wouldn't group Ron Paul with Islamic extremists though. | ||
| Aesquire |
That's pretty much my point. "Liberal" has changed to mean "progressive" which is a neo-marxist thing. "liberal" once meant suffragettes and anti-slavery types. There is no doubt that the "elite" of both "Conservatives" and "progressives" have little in common with the "common" folk who elect them.... It's also true that "Conservative" folk are looked down upon by those influenced by the lefty media. There are some on the "right" who want to turn the clock back on civil rights for women. Rare, but exist. Far more common is the "left" who wants to keep the minorities down, and maintain their imagined superiority. The Left doesn't have a monopoly on racism, but they are the most racist, by numbers and the most in denial that racism exists on the left. ( racism, and the exploitation of racism, is part of the neo-marxist package. ) off topic... you ever feel like Sam Kinison when they complained his gay joke wasn't medically accurate? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
My experience here and elsewhere is that Progressive and Conservative folks argue past one another most of the time. My argument isn't that there should or shouldn't be Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Universal Healthcare, etc. My argument is simply that there is no provision currently in the Constitution for these services to be provided via the Federal Government. Progressives argue how unfair the system is and how difficult life would be without these benefits. May be, but these arguments have little bearing on the argument of Constitutionality. Article I, Section 8 Tenth Amendment Article V If a power isn't provided under Article I, Section 8 or created under Article V (Amendment process) it is a power reserved exclusively to the States under the Tenth Amendment. That's it. Any other solution creates an abrogation of rights granted under the Constitution. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Doesn't it depend if they ride or not? | ||
| Moxnix |
No. Libertarians rule! | ||
| Aesquire |
 | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Constant change is here to stay! Oxymorons of the world unite. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fix-income- inequality-with-10-million-loans-for-everyone/2012 /04/13/gIQATUQAFT_story.html | ||
| 86129squids |
Labeling theory... | ||
| Moxnix |
Nothing I have runs. Dyslexics o' the world untie! | ||
| 86129squids |
As to the thread title... Just jokin, Sifo, but on a serious note... I try to observe MORE than one or the other side, not black/white, evil/good, Rep/Dem. IMHO it's a tragedy that our political processes have come to the state they're in today. I was talking with my sis the other day, both of us flying from humor to seriousness and back- I joked that what we need, and what I'd vote for, is a double RP ticket: Ron Paul/Ross Perot!! You may now commence the flaying/tar and feathering. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Right on time, they want to limit travel out of the US Give the IRS an inch, and they will take a state. Looks like I am spending the afternoon reading Senate Bill 1813. | ||
| Xbniner |
I'm glad you posted on this topic, but I don't know if I would call that science. ------ Quote: But Haidt’s research went one step further, asking self-indentified conservatives to answer those questionnaires as if they were liberals and for liberals to do the opposite. ------- And even if you accept the premise of that experiment, I don't understand the jump from that article to the premise that conservatives are less likely to make Ad Hominem attacks, which is then followed by conservatives making said attacks and broad generalizations. I won't argue with City on anything to do with Soviets- but painting everybody who is liberal as a marxist, abortion-loving, constitution-hating hippie is the exact opposite of "understanding the other side." That's just more of "understanding what you think the other side is saying" and I don't see how it's any different from what the liberals do to conservatives when they call us uneducated, women-hating, racist theocrats. | ||
| Aesquire |
City is dead right on the Soviets. Not every "liberal" is a "marxist, abortion-loving, constitution-hating hippie" I come close on the hippie part, but I'm too young to really fit the demographic and have worked every week since I was 15. ( not counting a bad patch during Carter, and the first year of Regan. It would have been great if that job teaching machine shop in Iran hadn't gone..... away ) I'm pretty darn anti-marxist. But it's like being anti-Christian, there are many flavors, and not all of them have supported child rapists. Both are religions. In todays world, one holds the record for mass murder. Before the mid 1800's that was a tossup between Islam and the Steppe invasions. ( see Tamerlane.... "he made a desert and called it peace" ) Likewise some neo-marxist groups, like the scandahoovian countries, have made a fair go on Socialism. It's collapsing on them, as it MUST ( built in broken ) but Sweden is nothing like N. Korea. ( and N. Korea is no longer marxist, officially. It's pure Cult. ) Oh, being liberal, I disagree with several here on many social issues. Blake and I, for example, disagree on Gay Marriage, ( he agrees with Obama's public persona ) but agree on civil unions. Since my joke is better on the subject, we are content to let it lie. ( Dolly Parton's "why should we be the only ones that suffer?" is, to my mind the last word ) OTOH Progressives ( oft called liberals ) tend ( tend, no group is monolithic ) to be humorless religious zealots who are, in fact, marxist, abortion loving, constitution haters. ( the hippie part is a bit too old for most ) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Just saw the ultimate hippy Co-opt yesterday.... Wal-Mart is selling bulk fabric in a camouflage motif.... with Peace symbols on it.... Made in Indonesia. Organized Crime, Prostitution, Money Laundering, bilking of the visitors, power plays, and bought politicians..... Vegas or D.C. ? When you realize the lights and glitter of the casino spread past the NV location - the idiots in DC are pretty powerless. You play against the house, no matter the location. | ||
| Gregtonn |
City, Section 40304, written by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid basically says if you owe the IRS more than $50,000 your passport can be taken away. I guess, if this passes, Warren Buffet will have to get a hall pass from the big 0 to travel out of the country. G | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I don't like the power the IRS has under the new med law, and I am certainly not happy about this one either. watch it click to - you owe on student loans - you cannot travel over seas. | ||
| Fahren |
The IRS/passport thing deserves its own thread, as it is another clear indicator of the slippery slope - sliding faster and faster down and away from a free country. Who says someone owes? The IRS? Through what process? OR is it just "guilty until proven innocent?" Dark times. | ||
| Aesquire |
With the IRS it is guilty until proven innocent. You can have the IRS do your taxes for you, make a mistake, and then charge you for it. "The Affordable Healthcare Act" gives the IRS total access to your medical and all other records... At a certain point, coming to a tyranny near you, I can see the IRS fining you for buying cigarettes. Or donuts. Hey, if you are listed as obese in your medical records, the Holy State and its Inquisition have every power ( not right, that's different...though they will call it that ) to control your diet. Given the powers they now possess, that is inevitable. How much you want to bet the IRS can forbid motorcycle riding? It does, after all, pose an undue burden on a single payer socialized healthcare system. Wait until they pass the 1% on every transaction tax. Then 2%...3.... |
