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Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 03:05 am: | 
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Which Asians would that be & what do they say?
I'm not trying to big up Europe or run down the US I'm just relating the views of people I know here.
My personal view is that you have a great country, but your leadership has been degrading at an increasing pace for the last couple of decades or so & there's no end in sight.
I think it's a tribute to your society that it hasn't already imploded.
But I'm no sociologist, just a truck driver & a furrinner at that!  |
Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 03:12 am: |
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Fahren, where's your Mrs from? |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 07:09 am: |
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...but your leadership has been degrading at an increasing pace...
Yeah, we've noticed. The Congress, especially the Senate, seems to believe they are the British House of Lords and now a hereditary aristocracy.
The tyranny of the incumbent. ( in NY the legislature has a near 100% re-election rate. ) |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2012 - 10:39 am: |
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Which asians?
Well, the Chinese Students that actually got real history (Taiwan, older Hong Kong kids) are a little less enthusiastic about it, but the ones raised under Communist rule have been taught that the British used Opium to destroy Chinese civilization so they could get their drug of choice, tea, cheaper. Hard to argue about that one.
Then they were occupied by the Japanese while the European powers ( including the US ) just let them be enslaved. Followed by mass rape, looting, biological warfare experiments and slave labor. They got that one right too.
The Indians recall long occupation by the Brits and their effective habit of pitting one tribe/religion/region against another, keeping control through the "divide and conquer" system. Took a while to get rid of them.
I know a little less about the attitudes of the Thais and Cambodians, ( and few Burmese live to reach America ) but the Vietnamese have a little better attitude about the French than you'd expect after years of rule, Which I attribute to the sheer utter hell of Communist rule.
To be fair, most of the Vietnamese I know either are the children of or the ones who escaped 'Nam, often in overcrowded fishing boats, and are not among the tens of millions murdered when the Communists. moved in and sent people en-mass to "reeducation camps" from which few returned, many dying in "bus accidents" on the way to be worked to death while being harangued 24/7 on the virtues of Communist ideology and the Freedom that comes from Slavery. The Ones I meet are the ones that made it among the hundreds of thousands that died trying to escape.
Many seem to see the Europeans as arrogant, self important, holier than thou exploiters of their homelands. Seems to depend on who occupied who and who got screwed in the process. Same with Americans, usually with less intensity... depending on who exploited who....
Of course, the bulk I see today are either long term residents or college students. A lot of the College students get assimilated into American culture after about 3-4 years and don't want to go back home, where they are usually in the upper classes. ( and still think it sucks there. ) The majority do go home and are a big part of why India and China are kicking butt economically.
I'm certain they go home and tell their friends that Americans are crazy. I can't argue wth that either.
One issue that Europeans have with Americans is the tendency of some vocal jerks to expect "gratitude" for freeing your country from "the hun". (WW1 or WW2, or Cold War, doesn't matter ) Just as many idiots here complained about the lack of gratitude we got from the Iraqis after freeing them from Saddam.
Sorry about that. Those bozos never learned that asking for thanks gets tired real damn fast, and everyone gets disgusted pretty soon at the insensitivity of needy, gotta be loved, emo jerks.
To the Emo jerks... the gratitude was real, we got it and then people go back to work trying to live their lives. We already had the parade. Flowers were thrown. Bozo's have had this attitude after the Spanish American war and every one since. I Blame Progressives, but it's a pretty common thing. Grow up. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 09:00 am: |
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People elsewhere ought not lump all the States in as one entity. That's a fairly recent shift in our view here, though it is the popular view here now too.
>>> They hated Reagan too. And like Clinton a lot...
Virtually all the foreigners I spoke to at the time despised Clinton and thought he should have resigned. Granted my contact was limited to productive hard working folks, usually engineers who had families and strong family values. It's true that many folks who appreciate loose morals did/do applaud Clinton.
The contention that "they hated Reagan too" is just bizarre. |
Fahren
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 10:00 am: |
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Blake, FWIW, a guy like Reagan epitomizes, in the European "eye" (sorry for the generalization there), exactly the type of black/white, with-us-or-against-us outlook that the Europeans, with their parliamentary, consensus-building forms of government find obnoxious.
Our "left-wing" Democrat politicians site right about where the right wing Euro politicians sit, and, for European governments, it goes left from there.
Of course it is a gross generalization to say "all Europeans hated Reagan." But ideologically, he was way, way too far to the Right for most of Europe. In the same way that Europeans can be condescending and dismissive of the USA while simultaneously being fascinated by it, so Reagan was an appropriate "symbol" of America for many on the other side of the pond. |
Reindog
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 10:24 am: |
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I think you are talking to the "wrong" Europeans. Reagan and Thatcher helped bring down the Soviet Union which freed Eastern Europe and they have a different take on Reaganus Maximus. Oh, I suppose Eastern Europe is not the "correct Europe". I met Europeans in Prague who absolutely despised Clinton to the point that even I was embarrassed.
Grumpity, sorry you have such an incorrect view about us. No country has done more for more people and not asked anything in return. But come on over to this side of the Pond for a beer. We'll keep the light on for you.
Generalizations suck. The "common" view is that Parisians are anti-American snobby frogs. This could not be farther from the truth in my experience. Parisians are warm and cordial, at least, to me. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 10:40 am: |
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a guy like Reagan epitomizes, in the European "eye" (sorry for the generalization there), exactly the type of black/white, with-us-or-against-us outlook that the Europeans, with their parliamentary, consensus-building forms of government find obnoxious.
That's a pretty bad summary of Reagan. He got a lot done while never having a Republican held House. The only way for him to get things done was through compromise. That's how a great leader works. BO could learn a lot from Reagan. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 10:45 am: |
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Chris (Fahren),
Are you making stuff up or do you have a serious source for your contention that Europe hated Reagan? Sounds like complete and utter baloney to me.
But like I said about folks with loose morals appreciating Clinton, the converse is true where socialists and communists wouldn't appreciate a man like Reagan so devoted to free enterprise and individual liberty.
Frankly, when it comes to America's leaders, what people of other nations may think warrants incredibly little attention. Those who are led around by their nose by the "Progressive" media just like so many here in America are in no position to understand reality or truth.
Let them embrace China and Putin if they wish. Fine by me. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 10:47 am: |
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>>> That's a pretty bad summary of Reagan. He got a lot done while never having a Republican held House. The only way for him to get things done was through compromise. That's how a great leader works. BO could learn a lot from Reagan.
Well stated. Darn facts can be so annoying to the Progressive narrative. |
Fahren
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 11:12 am: |
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Fine. Go ahead and kill the messenger if you don't like the message! I am relating first- hand observations from having lived in Italy, France and the UK, with dear friends in all these countries, as well as in Germany. |
Fahren
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 11:17 am: |
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And the idea that relating dircetly-observed attitudes and behavior to a bunch of folks on a bike forum somehow constitutes a "progressive narrative" is patently absurd. Although I apologized twice in my earlier post for using generalizations, I still used them. So again, go ahead and shoot me down because what I am telling you, or what Grumps is saying, does not jibe with your own personal world view. The problem is, neither Grumpy not I made up this stuff. Again, I guess it's those darn facts....
(Message edited by fahren on April 02, 2012) |
Sifo
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 11:18 am: |
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It may be an accurate summary of opinions, but those opinions are demonstrably not based on facts. |
Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Monday, April 02, 2012 - 02:01 pm: |
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I wouldn't say that Europeans hated Reagan, but he sure as hell worried the f*** out of us.
Grumpity, sorry you have such an incorrect view about us. No country has done more for more people and not asked anything in return.
Sorry Reindog, you're mixing me up with somebody else, I have no problems with the US.
As for Raygun Ronnie & the Sainted Maggie, liberating the East Block so they can join us in the EU, well all I can say is thanks a f****g bunch they've screwed the rest of us into the ground.
Please don't be so condescending as to tell me I don't consort with the right kind of Europeans either.
As Fahren said we're not making this up, why would we? We're just relating what the general impression of the US as a whole is.
I've previously stated my own opinion, which isn't the same, quite clearly.
I'll answer a few points here.
People elsewhere ought not lump all the States in as one entity.
Why not? you're doing so. One Nation under God.
You have one president, how are non Americans supposed to see you?
Oh them Texans are lovely people but the rest of them are a bunch of tossers? I don't think that'd go down too well, do you?
It may be an accurate summary of opinions, but those opinions are demonstrably not based on facts.
Er, yes they are! Just maybe not the same facts as you base your opinion on, or viewed from a different standpoint.
Frankly, when it comes to America's leaders, what people of other nations may think warrants incredibly little attention. Those who are led around by their nose by the "Progressive" media just like so many here in America are in no position to understand reality or truth.
Was that being deliberately insulting Blake, or do you just not care?
So any non American opinion is worth jackshit, & anybody who questions what they are told by commercial news media just doesn't understand.
You have just provided in black & green the whole point of European opinion. It's this whole "We know best, & you're not one of us so you don't count." patronizing attitude that gets right up everybody's noses.
You seem to be unable to accept that others can hold equally valid opinions that fail to coincide with your own, and any non aligned opinion must therefore be wrong.
I mentioned earlier about Reagan scaring us to death.
We didn't know how things were going to work out in the EastBloc but you had a whole ocean as a buffer.
Russian tanks were only a few days from our homes & the alternative was nuclear war with us in the middle, damn right we were scared.
Try to understand that the attitude in Europe has been coloured by war & invasion for centuries.
Now we're all friends & skint because the jobs have gone East, thanks Ron thanks Maggie.
I'm done on this one.
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Aesquire
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 12:23 am: |
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Mr Grumpy, I suspect this is a language issue.
I think Blake means that the American Progressives are the morons, not you, and it's them that follow blindly the 24 hour news cycle with it's constant stream of commercials that are better thought out than the shows.....
BTW my pick for military service coming out of high school was M-1's in the Fulda Gap. I grew up next to SAC Hdqt. So had at least 7 multimegaton ICBM's aimed at my house. ( with 70 megaton weapons and a Soviet accuracy rate so low, I averaged inside the craters )
I'm not surprised the Eastern Bloc freedom led to dealing with the issues of Soviet era pollution and wage differences. Look at us. We keep making other places rich too. Like Japan, and now China.
I think the Europeans think our "right" is the same as theirs... all these labels are misleading.
BHO is far closer to classic fascist than GWB, or RR.
That said, I wasn't really happy with Ronnie, though I liked him giving the Soviet Empire problems. Jimmie wanted to abandon all to the KGB, it seemed. Don't get me started on LBJ.
Don't forget the D's have controlled the Congress for 40+ years, and until this last guy, Presidents had to go through Congress to start wars. The Congress does the budgets, and writes the laws. ( badly, IMHO ) |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 12:16 pm: |
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Innes,
Surely you can concur that Europe's history is not one that lends any confidence to popular policy opinion there. Europe's interests are not necessarily the same as America's. My point about what Progressive European opinion means concerning our leadership here is supported by history and by the different interests.
Do you really prefer a return to the Soviet Eastern block over free nations like Poland, the Czech Republic and friends? |
Sifo
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 12:30 pm: |
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There's also a huge double standard. The US was demonized for invading Iraq, claiming that we did it for oil. While I disagree with that assessment, that isn't my point. A while back I pointed out to Grumpy that BO had just bombed the hell out of Libya removing the leader of a sovereign country in a war that was about oil... For France. His reply was to the effect of it was in France's best interests, so what. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 12:33 pm: |
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Frankly I'm at a loss as to why any developed nation ought to care about what other developed nations think of their leaders. Free and just nations virtually never go to war against each other. So beyond standing for freedom and justice, I think the rest is appropriately left to each nation's domestic voters to best decide. At least we can see how each other's policies play out and use that information to inform our own policies. Take Greece and Ireland and Spain for example. Are they not proof positive that the Socialist nanny state run amok is a HUGE threat to prosperity?
Is not the situation in a number of European cities with radical islamism taking hold not a clear siren call against allowing islamists to immigrate to our homelands?
It's fun to talk about though. I despised Chirac (leftist) and the former leftist leader of Germany--can't recall his name--for stabbing us in the back on Iraq. But they were supposedly looking out for what they figured were their nations' best interests. I think they were dead wrong and short-sighted and have blood on their hands and were also double-dealing and corrupt concerning Saddam Hussein. Interesting that both nations then elected conservative leaders.
I think the news media in Europe is corrupt just like it is here when it comes to politically relevant reporting.
Isn't it true that many in Europe yearn to see a weak, feckless America? God help us all if that increasingly comes to pass. |
Sifo
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 12:49 pm: |
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Isn't it true that many in Europe yearn to see a weak, feckless America?
It's much like the occupy Wallstreet crowd, just on a different scale. They see the wealthy and powerful as evil, but don't recognize what the world would be without them. They just see that someone has a bigger slice of pie than they do, but don't seem to grasp that the size of the pie is dependent on those making pie. |
Fahren
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 12:56 pm: |
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Chirac was a right-wing, conservative party leader in France. He lost to Sarkozy, who is also rightist, but reached out to leaders of the Left to be in his cabinet.
Your calling Chirac a Leftist speaks to my point that the left over here corresponds roughly to the right over there. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 01:38 pm: |
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Socialist is socialist no matter where you are. True that W. Europe is much more entrenched in that. |
Ferris_von_bueller
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 05:00 pm: |
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America has been on the decline since it's inception. Freedom has been restricted from the moment the first Congress convened. The best we can hope for is to slow down the inevitable slide. It's the innate desire of men to control and subjugate one another. Whether it be on a playground, at work or at a prayer meeting there are individuals seeking to dominate and impose their will. Capitalist or socialist someone is pushing an agenda because it benefits them. From the preacher to the peddler this is the nature of man. Always has been - always will be |
Reindog
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 - 05:33 pm: |
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Ferris,
That is the PRECISE point of the Founding Fathers. Thank you.
A "living" document is no document at all. The US Constitution must have been spawned by friendly extraterrestrials. |
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