| Author | Message | ||
     Fahren |
I did not want to derail the thread on the Merchants of Despair, because it seems to be morphing off into a Holder/Black Panthers/Obamacare & The Supremes bitchfest. Rather, I want to go to the deeper problem/issue I tried to touch on in that other thread, namely that a simple "anti-Obama" approach will not get anyone, least of all this country as a whole, anywhere. Our leaders in DC and on Wall Street (alarmingly similar) have been milking the cow dry for years and years, and for decades our politicians have been kicking the can down the road a little further. And now, to switch metaphors, the needle is slowing down and looks to be closer to an inevitable point of rest in the slice of pie labeled "Obama," much to his dismay and apparently frenetic attempts to get that can back on the kicking trail. Use whatever image you want: the chickens are coming home to roost, if you will. This is all the culmination of decades of unsustainable and irresponsible fiscal policy, a tide that took everyone along as it rose, but is now, inevitably, receding, and leaving many, many people high and dry, or worse, dashed against the rocks. Who here thinks that, after all the dismantling of the US Constitution that has gone on for years now, especially since 2001, a new POTUS will magically reverse those changes, and willingly give up the immense powers now taken by the Executive? I object to Bill Whittle's aggressive whining about Obama, not because I think Obama is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but because it mis-directs the discussion that needs to take place. I will not, cannot, accept the argument that it must be "first things first: we need first just to get 'ABO' elected, then we can work on the rest." That is simplistic, and completely avoids the very, very difficult issues that we are facing, about how to properly and fairly enforce existing laws about immigration, fraud, corporate criminality; about how to stop the brainless and gutless, doomed-to-fail-while-distracting-us-and-draining-t he-coffers "War on Drugs;" how to tax fairly; how to encourage a strong middle class; how to address our national debt addiction; how to bring the USA back from the brink of tyranny and despotism and big-brotherism, by restoring a balance and appropriate powers to the three government branches; how to maintain stability and encourage peaceful and meaningful reform around the globe without the kneejerk war drum/sabre rattling of politicians in the pocket of the military/industrial giants..... Need I go on to enumerate the difficulty of the task, and by extension, how impoverished and driven by influence-peddlers our political process is (on left and right alike)? And how intellectually and spiritually impoverished our so-called leaders, and those who would pretend to the oval office are? If we do not demand better leaders, we do not deserve better. | ||
| Sifo |
Like it or not the choice will almost certainly be BO or Mitt. It's a simple matter of which you like better. It's a no-brainer from my seat. BO has been a disaster worse that Carter ever dreamed of being. The time for change is here. Much of the other change that is necessary needs to be done in the House and Senate. If you want to take the thread in that direction feel free. I won't try to force that on your thread about the presidential election. | ||
| Oldog |
What Do you suggest? Starting with ABO The existing political system is going to offer us essentially 2 choices, BHO-le and likely Romney, If a significant portion votes for say RP then what, 4 more years? IMO 1. remove BHO-le 2. by states Remove state senators / reps that voted for the health care mandate, 3. make voting records easy to get and understand so the populace can understand them. Help make informed decisions... 4. while we must allow freedom of speech and press, there must be accountability, news outlets that do not provide factual non biased information or say in the case of the travon martin case are formenting racial unrest be subject to civil penalties | ||
| Fahren |
news outlets that do not provide factual non biased information or say in the case of the travon martin case are formenting racial unrest be subject to civil penalties http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/lostinshowb iz/2012/mar/29/us-tv-pundits-kim-kardashian Sifo, there is no real choice, certainly not free choice, and that is a serious problem. Where has America gone? Down the Tube, IMHO. Bread and Circuses, for the People. | ||
| Sifo |
news outlets that do not provide factual non biased information or say in the case of the travon martin case are formenting racial unrest be subject to civil penalties http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/lostinshowb iz/2012/mar/29/us-tv-pundits-kim-kardashian Sifo, there is no real choice, certainly not free choice, and that is a serious problem. Where has America gone? Down the Tube, IMHO. Bread and Circuses, for the People. Fahren, On some level I think we are close in many of our views, yet you seem to consistently lose me on many things. Bringing up a piece that slams Fox News for covering the Martin/Zimmerman issue, claiming to not be focused on facts is one of those things. I don't even want to attempt to defend Fox New in this. They are a non-issue in this. It's a liberal press that has made this case a national issue, and they are using nothing but emotional argument to do it. I have seen absolutely zero actual evidence that Zimmerman should be charged with any crime, yet I've seen plenty of coverage making him out to be a cold blooded killer. BO has stuck his nose into the issue too making the matter even worse. Let me be absolutely clear on this point though; It's the progressives who have made this case a national issue. If not for their emotional and fraudulent hand wringing this case would have been handled properly as a local matter and few of us would have ever known about it. To point at Fox News for their coverage of a manufactured national story at this point in time is to simply ignore the cause entirely. You have lost me again, I just don't get it at all. | ||
| Fahren |
My apologies for losing you, Sifo. I honestly have not been following the case, neither in the news nor on the badweb thread devoted to it, as I wholeheartedly agree that it is the tragic equivalent of all the sensationalist "kitten up a tree" or "Fire leaves family homeless - pictures at 11" junk that the TV loves to spew at us. I thought the article was interesting, perhaps tangential to the core of the discussion at hand, but I included it nevertheless "for your viewing pleasure" :-) I enjoy hearing what others outside the US think when they look into our big fishbowl! | ||
| Sifo |
No apologies necessary, and I don't mean my comments as an attack against you. I just find it odd to blame "right wing" news (that article also blamed Limbaugh and another "right winger" that I don't remember off the top of my head) for sensationalizing this story. That's just completely backwards though. Once it's national news it has to be covered though. Who made it national news though? Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Maxine Waters, and others with the help of the liberal press. What does that say for the journalist that is now blaming right wing new for it's coverage of this story? | ||
| Fb1 |
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| Reindog |
So you don't want to derail a thread by creating a different one with virtually the same name?  | ||
| Fahren |
I think the above article, if you can really call it that, could have dealt more in depth with the issue of media mindwarp that is a huge problem in our politics, as well as in just about every other aspect of our lives these days. Don't mean to do "article link overkill," but this piece does a better job of getting to the root of how vested interests are hard at work (on both/all sides) keeping us going with an illusion of free choice. Exerpt:
Full article linked above. | ||
| Fahren |
WTF I'm all over the map, Reindog!  ;- ) (Message edited by fahren on March 30, 2012) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Not picking on you Faren, I appreciate your insight. But a better analogy would be:
When the real story was that Jane Doe was the Wal Mart clerk that sold the a homeowner the raw hamburger earlier in the day that the homeowner put on the stove right before they passed out drunk. The beef here isn't that the media is covering it, it is that they are deliberately leading people to specific and dangerous conclusions that are not currently supported by facts. If the facts show that Zimmerman committed a crime, report it. If they don't support it, then stop framing your stories so reasonable people conclude that he did. When somebody tells me something that isn't true, I think they are a liar. When somebody tells me something that is true, but in a way carefully designed to lead me to an untrue conclusion, I call them a liar (and a coward). | ||
| Sifo |
No doubt certain media are spinning things big time. Take a look at the two clips in this and tell me, which one is spinning the story? http://www.theblaze.com/stories/oreilly-scolds-med ia-for-convicting-george-zimmerman-on-television-a s-al-sharpton-tries-to-convict-zimmerman-on-televi sion/ | ||
| Fahren |
Thanks for the clarification... I really should jes' shaddup about "news" stories about which I know next to nothing. Or at least refrain from linking to articles that are picked up hit out into deep right field! Honestly, my bad for getting you all off on that tangent. The media mind control issue in general is much bigger and more important a problem, and whatever is happening with this particular current event story is just one example. (Message edited by fahren on March 30, 2012) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
he is the one ram rodding the cannon - he is the one that needs to go. To say that it just happened when he happened to be in office is to ignore every single line item, back room agenda, pork barrel, bully pulpit, cult of personality that he has taken on himself to shove down our throats You can start with the 2700 pages of the PPACA - its two years old, read it yet ? Follow it up with securities plunder right behind it at 2300 pages.... also two years old - read it yet ? IF you think this guy is merely culpable because he gets dressed at 1600 Pennsylvania - you ain't paying attention. and it ain't because he is black that I hate him - I hate him because is he a Communist sympathizer - muslim conspirator and an appeasement succophant | ||
| Fahren |
Did you mean "sycophant" or "succubus"? LOL ...or maybe a combination of the two?! | ||
| Oldog |
Rather telling comments from britts BUT O'riley is not news but infotainment / opinion... | ||
| Fahren |
^^^Yep. As is Limbaugh. As is Maher, Colbert, and Stewart. et al. It's a shame that politics has essentially become entertainment for so many people. Voting? That's what you do for American Idol, right? | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Did you mean "sycophant" or "succubus"? LOL I have problems with english sometimes - but I like the combination of the two, I smell trademark I actually like the American Idol platform - for spending programs ie you have 3 minutes to prove to the nation, in full transparency why your program deserves any money .... fail the vote, no money - pink slips all around. I also think Congress should never be able to vote on their own pay ! make sure there is a conservative @$$ with a role similar to Simon's | ||
| Sifo |
BUT O'riley is not news but infotainment / opinion... Absolutely correct, but he delivers better hard news than the hard news segments on competing cable channels. Honestly I wouldn't take any info from TV without verifying it first. Even the broadcast heavyweights of the past went bad as was clearly demonstrated with Dan Rather pushing forged documents off to sway an election. Much of the print media isn't much better. It's a world where you need to cross check a variety of sources to get anything resembling the truth. I'm really not convinced this is anything new in the world, it's just easier to catch it being done with all the information that is now easily available. | ||
| Fahren |
I've got it: a budget-cutting reality TV show! We'll call it "Whittling with Bill!" | ||
| Fb1 |
It's a world where you need to cross check a variety of sources to get anything resembling the truth. I'm really not convinced this is anything new in the world, it's just easier to catch it being done with all the information that is now easily available. Sifo, you've hit the nail on the head. The internet is a person's best source of news these days. There's right wing, left wing, and everything in between. The beauty is that YOU get to search for "the news," instead of taking whatever pablum you happen to get from the TV or newspaper or radio. It's real-time, global, and these days there are more and more "citizen journalists" who are fed up about the mainstream media and their collusion with the lifers in the White House and actually reporting NEWS, instead of simply providing politically-expedient entertainment. Which makes the internet a powerful tool, indeed. Which makes the internet very dangerous to folks who don't want you to get the REAL news, but would rather you only get THEIR news, with THEIR spin. Which provides some pretty chewy food for thought as to what SOPA and PIPA were actually all about, doesn't it? I mean, just imagine what a coup it would be if the government owned the internet in the same way they own television and radio. The government OWNS the mainstream media, lock, stock and barrel. They don't own the internet.......yet....... FB | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
You want the view from abroad? really? Are you sure you can handle it? I'll give it to you straight then, most of the rest of the world see the united states as a whole to be like a bunch of spoiled brats. Loads of room, resources, the best of people & you've wasted it all, but you still think you're better than everybody else. You are mostly the nicest, kindest, most hospitable individuals a person could ever want to meet. But as a nation you're the big rich kid with all of life's advantages, that will only play games that he can win & sulks when doesn't. I take no pleasure in saying any of this, except the bit about you being nice folks, but that's how most Europeans see America, a land of opportunity & profligate waste. I love you dearly as friends & adore coming to see you, but I don't know if I could live with your devil take the hindmost way of living. I'm a European & used to the inclusive nobody left behind attitude. Which way is best? History will tell, but I'll be long gone by then. Many people outside the US saw Obama as the man who could maybe bring the US to a more Euro style of culture, but it's become evident that it's just "more of the same" unfortunately there appears to be no credible alternative. The quality of politicians these days is dire, & that's not a dig the US it's the same here in France where it's presidential election time too. The current incumbent Sarkozy hasn't done that much but he's kept the country afloat during these hard times, the main contender Hollande comes across as a bumptious buffoon, but one can only hope he has some hidden depths, as he's front runner in polls. I don't know where we're going, but we're getting there at a hell of a lick! | ||
| Sifo |
Grumpy, Thanks for the input. I agree with parts of that at least. I've got a question for you though. Is this a recently arrived at opinion of the US or has this been something long standing. It seems to me from people I knew back in the 80's from across the pond that this is nothing new. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
To my mind it's not totally new, Americans have long been viewed as overbearing too full of themselves. I'm sure that's part jealousy. What seems to me to have changed is the way the US still appears to want to tell everybody else how they should be living but won't participate themselves. Kyoto agreement stands out as an example. Also the divergence between the "haves" & "have nots" seems to be more pronounced than ever. As I say, these are impressions from a distance, I dare say were I living in the US I may view things differently. | ||
| Sifo |
Kyoto... I'm glad we didn't agree to that one. I wouldn't wish it on you either. The separation of the haves and have nots is something I honestly don't get. Without a doubt the US has some very rich folks. Here's the thing though; Our poor are among the best off poor people you will find in the world. The gap only matters if you are wanting to take from the rich. I'm from a very blue collar family, far from wealthy (grandfather fled Poland with nothing in WWII), and have done quite well for myself. I have NEVER found a rich person to stand in the way of me accumulating wealth. Quite to the contrary as a matter of fact. I've found people of wealth more than happy to HELP you better your position in life. That doesn't mean a hand out, it means information on how to get wealthy yourself. You still need to do the work. If you want to see bad examples of haves/have nots, take a look at places like Saudi Arabia. The rich there make our rich look poor. The poor people there have nothing that isn't provided for them. They are so dysfunctional as a society that they can't even drill their own oil wells, or run a technology company. Unlike the US, the poor there have no hope of changing their station in life either. Basically I would judge us more on what our poor have, not on how much more our rich have than our poor. No country has ever become prosperous by holding back the rich. So I take it that it's not correct to say that these feeling about the US originated with George W. Bush as so many like to claim? | ||
| Fahren |
So I take it that it's not correct to say that these feeling about the US originated with George W. Bush as so many like to claim? Yeah, that's true. They hated Reagan, too. And like Clinton a lot, found a certain je ne sais quoi about a womanizing president :-) Mr. Grumpy, both of us have wives from France. It does give perspective. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The problem is no longer just the leaders but the electorate. There are so few of us willing to take less from our government, willing to take responsibility for ourselves, willing to return the genie to the bottle. How many times have we heard Social Security described as "the third rail"? Why? Because anyone who even considers or discusses curtailing it as a program is immediately politically dead. Ask Rick Perry. His career died the minute he rightly called Social Security a "ponzi scheme". He wasn't incorrect. It's just that the people who advocate for it don't want to accept that it is just that, a ponzi scheme. When these programs go defunct (and they will), all those who are expectant recipients will go ape shit. (See Greece). The problem is that the majority of Americans don't really want the system fixed. They just want to make sure they get their check and don't really care who has to give up their check for them to get it. I see blood coming. | ||
| Cowboy |
All I have to say is I will never get back what I have paid in (over$300,000) what has been done with it??????? | ||
| Aesquire |
Cowboy, they spent it. What makes me giggle is that all the discussion of the 17yr old guy with a hoodie that got shot is EXACTLY what the politicians want you to be talking about. I don't have total confidence that Justice will prevail. But that's not just this case, that is the way it is. People are flawed, lawyers talk a good game ( or they stick to contract law  ) and sometimes the guilty get off and sometimes the innocent go to prison, or the Chair. I can complain about that but I know no way to change it. Do you? I do know for sure that every minute you spend looking for bloodstains on a grainy video that someone else edited to make their biased point, is a minute you are not talking about how to lower the price of gas, what alternative fuel won't cause starvation worldwide, or what war we will be in next caused by the current regime's policies. Making fuel from food that takes as much fuel to make as you get is insane, and can only happen when it is mandated by a government with an agenda. IMO ( not so humble ) the current foreign policy is leading us straight into war. Heck, I'm a Hawk, even a Jingoist, but if we are going to go to war with Iran, or Botswana, I want us to kick ass, fast, hard and nasty, and not occupy. I don't know how this guy will do things, since he has so far followed the Bush path. Bush ordered and got the defeat of the Taliban's government and Saddam's in record time. It was the policies after we beat them that led to the deaths of thousands of Americans and tens of thousands of natives, at the hands of the bad guys. Decapitate, not rehabilitate. If Iran has the mullahs eliminated, the people have a shot, it's a pretty urbane culture, compared to the rest of the region. I don't give a damn if some jackwater Congresscritter wears a hoodie because Rush made a comment. ( except to laugh that Rush has residence in that guys head. Good Lord why? ) If we get race riots and the breakdown of civilization over this Florida case of multiple dumb..... we deserve contempt. Mr. Grumpy, you should hear what the Asians say about Europe. |
