| Author | Message | ||
     Brumbear |
Then why show it to the masses and why offer the motor alone Blake? And when you click the FAQ Motus can neither confirm or deny? http://motusmotorcycles.com/PDF/MotusDaytona2012PR _2.pdf I just don't get that from the press releases. | ||
| Glitch |
They certainly have an impressive dealership network set up already. One is just north of here at Rider's Hill in Dahlonega. Eight dealerships and they say they're ready to ship the 2013 model by the Fall. Hats off to 'em! Rider's Hill sell many high end bikes, Aprilia, Moto Guzzi, and MV Agusta this will fit in nicely I think. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Blake, I don't think that is the model at all. Unfortunately, when you are a start-up producing a motorcycle with a new, ground up engine, there are development and production costs that HAVE to be amortized into the price of the bike. Given that the base costs are going to be high, the ONLY direction to go is up-market. There's just no way to make a "bargain" bike at that starting point. Now if they were starting with a high production engine used elsewhere in high numbers with little or no development costs, the price point and strategy would be completely different. If Motus could produce 10,000 bikes and sell them at $15,000 each, they'd do it tomorrow. In fact, this is exactly the conversation I had with Lee Conn, the President of Motus. The sale of the engines separately from the bikes demonstrates how not "exclusive" they are trying to be. If $19,000 of the $30,000 price is engine cost, do you really believe that they would sell enough bikes to make a difference if they priced them using components that cost $6,000 instead of $11,000. At $25,000 would another $5,000 really make a difference to that sort of a buyer? The price isn't dictated by the market or profit. It's dictated by the cost to bring the product to market. Shooting for the "high end" of the market is just marketing spin. If Confederate could sell their bikes for less to sell more of them, they would. Same for EBR. Same for Ducati. | ||
| Glitch |
If Confederate could sell their bikes for less to sell more of them, they would. While I agree with what you've said there, I'd have to disagree WRT Confederate. If they were to produce more bikes than they do, they'd have to meet EPA standards, and they'd be building at least one that would pass. They have no intention of being a mass producer of bikes, OR dealing with the EPA. They're really happy with what they've become. Hell, just read their facebook posts, and it becomes obvious. As it stands they're happy with boutique bikes to the uber rich. I think most of their bikes sold are in the Middle East anyway. | ||
| Guell |
Yea i really never thought their model was the same as confederate. Like glitch said, confederate is happy where they are. I think motus wants more than that. | ||
| Tankhead |
The following is taken from a quote from Motus in the NYtimes back during the release of the prototype. http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/04/motus-m otorcycles-sport-touring-american-style/ Motus’s business plan is to build and sell “in the hundreds of bikes per year, not thousands,” Mr. Conn explained. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Yeah, and Erik Buell said that the engine in the XB was the best engine for the kind of bike he wanted to build. $30,000+ wasn't their target when I talked with them two years ago. It isn't their target now. It's just where the pricing ended up based upon costs. Their target was low $20,000's. They couldn't get there. It's why the pricing took so long to be released. There isn't a company on the planet that could sell tens of thousands of bikes a year that would say "we aren't going to sell those extra bikes because we want to sell hundreds of bikes a year". It just isn't logical. EB only produced 100 1190RS motorcycles. If he had the funding to build 1000 or 10,000 or 100,000 and could sell them, he would have produced them. EBR would LOVE to sell 100,000+ bikes a year. I can guarantee you that EBR doesn't want to sell hundreds of bikes a year. Motus doesn't either. EBR didn't partner with Hero to sell hundreds of bikes a year. Erik Buell didn't partner with HD to sell hundreds of bikes a year. The difference with Motus is that they don't have Erik's reputation and history. If they did and there were manufacturers who would partner with them to supply the capital, they would sell as many bikes as they could get out the door. What is in that article is marketing spin from a guy who wants to sell the 3-400 bikes they have the capital to produce. When you can only produce 3-400, particularly if they are low volume, high priced motorcycles, you tout the quality and craftsmanship of being hand made. You tout the exclusivity of being a low volume producer of motorcycles being produced in limited numbers. You tout the novelty and uniqueness of the experience. You tout the quality of the components. What you don't say is "you suckers who are going to buy this first batch at $30,000+ each will pave the way for us to produce 10,000 next year at $22,000 each". I can guarantee you those who bought the first Buells at $15,000 each as early adopters would probably have waited a year or two if they knew more were going to be produced at lower prices 2-3 years later. I don't know else to say it. It's marketing spin. It's sales. It's what you say to get your new company off the ground hoping that your company will become HUGE. To your point about Confederate, if they could sell 50,000 bikes next year, they's climb the hill with the EPA to do it. Motus climbed the hill with the EPA FIRST. You don't do that if you only plan to build a few bikes a year. It's part of the reason they are $30,000+ each. | ||
| Blake |
Jeremy, >>> I don't think that is the model at all. Then the man lied. Listen to the YouTube interview. It is a smart decision. The mass-market for that type bike is just not big enough for it to try to compete with the majors. Building premium bikes in a small shop for a premium price is soooooo much less demanding than full blown mass production trying to compete on price against a host of great competition. They're likely trying to sell engines to cover continued pursuit of their dream. I hope they make it. The odds are stacked mightily against them. | ||
| Svh |
Blake business models change and evolve do they not? That does not make the man a liar. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Lie is an incorrect characterization. He outlined the marketing strategy as of today. IF they make it and sales grow to 10,000 per year, I doubt highly ANYONE would characterize what he said about only wanting to sell a few hundred bikes a year as a "lie". If Lee Conn lied, then Erik Buell is guilty of "lying" as well. | ||
| 46champ |
The better way of phrasing it would be the truth as it is today. Boy if that isn't a PC statement I'm almost ashamed I wrote it down. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Marketing isn't engineering. What is 100% true and accurate today is 100% inaccurate a year from now. Or tomorrow. What happens if Honda Motor Company shows up tomorrow and says "This motorcycle will revolutionize the market and we want to be a part of it." and drops $100M in their lap to ramp up production? Do you think they would turn them down and say "nah, we just want to sell a few hundred bikes a year"? | ||
| Glitch |
To your point about Confederate, if they could sell 50,000 bikes next year, they's climb the hill with the EPA to do it. Possibly. But after their remarks they've made, and the partnership with S&S says different. It matters not. Neither does all this hoopla about what Motus wants and doesn't want. Everyone wants to be successful, whether they measure it in bikes built, delivered, sold, money made, money spent, or however. Point is, they built an engine, and a bike and want to sell them. Success is in the eyes of the beholder. WRT to all this calling people liars. Really? A liar would be someone that is telling a falsehood knowing different is actually the truth. If you had asked me five years ago what I thought of myself being successful, it'd be a majorly different than what I consider me being successful today. Does that make me a liar? | ||
| Rex |
confederate using the S and S X wedge motor, I believe. S and S has that motor passed Epa, I believe. the confederate is really small production minded with their bodywork and parts. Mostly milled from aluminum blocks, it seems. to go big production, I think confederate would have to change the pieces on their bikes, and go with something cheaper and easier to produce than billet aluminum chunks. my point of view. | ||
| Blake |
Jeremy, "Erik Buell said that the engine in the XB was the best engine for the kind of bike he wanted to build." Where is their any hint of falsehood in that? Erik made is crystal clear at the time that he was trying to build the best backroads corner carving real world bike on the planet. Erik Buell has built and sold over 100,000 motorcycles. I don't know what you are talking about concerning anything like a statement misrepresenting a business plan, certainly Erik never did that, certainly not before ever selling his first motorcycle to a customer. Not sure what Erik and the XBikes have to do with the issue of Motus and their business plan; seems like a red herring to me, a poor one at that since the two issues are so disparate in impact and scope. Motus has yet to sell a motorcycle but is changing their business plan; now they are selling engines and want to go into mass production? Okay, maybe their earlier statement was not a lie, but certainly it is a fundamental transformation of what they had reported just months ago. Very odd. Not confidence inspiring. Sounds to me like they are in deep trouble financially. That's just a suspicion. I hope I'm wrong. Could be the exact opposite, that they have excellent financial backing and thus are now able to aim for a mass market approach. | ||
| Glitch |
Okay, maybe their earlier statement was not a lie, but certainly it is a fundamental transformation of what they had reported just months ago. Thank goodness we got that out of the way! Sounds to me like they are in deep trouble financially. Like half the country! Give em a break, they're trying, and remaining flexible is the only way to make it now a days. Imagine if ANYONE made a business plan and stuck to it rigidly. I'd imagine there would be a lot more failed businesses. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Erik Buell sold the XB engine as though it was custom built for his intended design. He later stated and we all knew it was a compromise in order to bring a product to market. Ever heard of the VR1000? Remember the design work that went into the V-Rod? Remember Erik stating that the engine originally intended to be used in a Buell that became too heavy for his designs? I don't believe Erik "lied" when he told us how great the XB motor was or that it was perfect for his design. Do you? It was marketing from a guy who wanted to sell the bike he had to build in order to get to the one he wanted to build. So was the spin on the "pods" that we found were designed by the bean counters and not Erik. I bring up Buell as an example of marketing to explain business strategy. What Lee Conn is stating in intentions of being a seller of ONLY a few hundred bikes a year is MARKETING. It's not a lie. It's positive spin conducted by all companies. Including Buell Motor Company. And EBR. Blake YOU come from your knowledge second hand. I come from my knowledge first hand. One of us has spoken directly to both Lee Conn and Brian Case. One of the two of us has Lee Conn's cell number in his phone, and the other doesn't. You have conjecture. I have direct conversations. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
Pfft. Facts and common sense brought into a world of opinion and blind brand worship!? This won't end well.  | ||
| Blake |
Glitch, The interview I saw on youtube where the Motus guy states that they are not interested in mass production...
edited to add emphasis (mine) (Message edited by Blake on March 21, 2012) | ||
| Blake |
I'm still floored by his statement that building a bullet-proof motorcycle is simple and easy. I really suspect that the Motus folks are enduring a very rude awakening. I sincerely hope they can succeed. | ||
| Blake |
Skip to around 6:55 in the above youtube video interview to hear the statements I referenced above. | ||
| Smokescreen |
That may have been true at the time. So moving ahead in hopes of expanding his company is as nobel an effort as Erik's. Why you so down on Lee Conn? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Yep. I was standing there while the guy filmed that video on his cell phone in Tom's service area. What I am trying to explain to you is that what was expressed in the video is largely marketing spin from the President of a start up company looking to build and sell the FIRST products his company has to offer. His ONLY goal right now is selling the bikes he has the money to produce today. You could just as easily substitute: Erik Buell, President Buell Motor Company 1996 135,000 bikes later, Buell was a "mass-producer". Funny how that happens. Blake, if offered funding to produce 10,000 bikes, do you believe Lee Conn would turn down that opportunity? | ||
| Blake |
That is nonsense. There is no comparison whatsoever other than the common thread of motorcycles. Erik Buell built a racing machine and sold a few. The class was killed-off by the AMA. Erik then built some custom street bikes and sold them. Then he built some more and sold them. Then a big manufacturer bought into Erik's company, then the big manufacturer bought it all. Product first, big dreams follow. The Motus folks like most, put the dream first. There is nothing false or misleading about Erik's statements about the XB engine. Erik has more than one dream, to build superbikes is one. The two-hundred year plan has others. I think it's really sad to see people trying to use Erik as an example of disingenuous marketing. Shame on you. I'm happy to let Mr. Conn speak for himself. I started out defending Motus, the price, by pointing out the nature of their business plan. Excuse me. Sorry for the trouble. I'll leave those most invested in the brand to the "marketing spin." | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Yeah, admitting you are wrong is much harder than you thought, huh. I guess you'll start calling me a liar next? | ||
| Glitch |
Uhm, we never at this point have any intention or goal of being a mass producer of motorcycles. We want to hand assemble the greatest motorcycles, not the most motorcycles.  | ||
| Brumbear |
So I guess if Warren Buffett came to these guys and said I will give you $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ so you can make 200,000 MST and sell them for $12,000.00 apiece and you can pay me back$5 a month for 10,000 years they would tell him to pack salt. I said it before I will stand by it NO ONE I mean NO ONE starts a business to fail. And to succeed you have to move product and they won't move enough at $30K+ to stay in the game.The costs are simply to high to be a manufacturer at the present time. | ||
| Tankhead |
When I started my business I would have accept investment dollars to grow. Thats is every business owners goal. Having a goal to be a mass producer at the start is foolish. Business spin, marketing, strategy but not liars. Business 101. These gentlemen are not fools. | ||
| Court |
>>>One of us has spoken directly to both Lee Conn and Brian Case. I spoke to them at the event they had here in NYC. They are nice and I admired their enthusiasm. But there were a number of basic things about the manufacture and operation of a motorcycle COMPANY (not, the motorcycle . . the COMPANY . . things like the certifications, tests, approval, registrations and so forth) that they appeared to be largely unaware of. I asked some specific questions and got blank stares. I liked their bike but I think they have a huge hill ahead of them moving it from concept to a commercially available product. How many employees do that have now? I got the impression they were pretty much sub-contracting everything except the marketing. | ||
| Guell |
There is nothing false or misleading about Erik's statements about the XB engine. except where i read that he said the xb engine wouldnt have been his 3rd or even 4th engine choice. Why dont you seem to want another American motorcycle company to succeed. Sure you post you do, but it sure doesnt seem that way. Even if its just boutique, im happy to have another american motorcycle company that doesnt make cruiser/choppers/bobbers etc. Lighten up a bit for a change... |
