| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
I guess one question to ask is whether the Pegasus racing team has had any such failure. Were they not racing a very similar 1190 platform? Although no team wants to have "that track" destroy motors and have no answer for it, but something tells me that the engine is more durable than Daytona has indicated. | ||
| Kenm123t |
When I picked up my Trailer Sun morning the EBR techs said they had a fix for the valve issue. Yamaha had major issues with the TZ 750s remember they shed thier expansion chambers on the track! Yamaha also had problems with their ti valves at first. Time will tell but think about the other racers that thinking EBR yeah right that saw the back of a 1190 as it went by. The future is going to be great fun thanks Erik and Elves | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Being that they are modding the rotax end product i'd think little but then again.... I'm not saying that EBR is the only one out there popping motors yeah I know that the big oval is world famous for busting motors tires brakes etc just sucks bawls when it's your riders motor and the other riders that you were pullling for that had engine failures. Even more so at this high a percentage. I too would've thought Erik and crew would've sorted the valve bounce issues. It's not like they didn't know about it.... | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
And yes char I am in desperate need of rest. | ||
| Court |
What if someone actually decided to take the motor, at the very first race of the season on the toughest track there is to run on a twin, up against it's absolute (engineering term) limit to see how long they could run it. What if their goal was not a podium finish but to see, with the motor running at that level on a track heavily skewed against the bike, to see where they could runic the pack, how long they could do it and what kind of trap speed one of the riders could marshal on a chosen lap. Nah . . . that'd be preposterous for the only motor to complete every race it ran last year and in the top 10. Never mind . . . I need rest. I worked on a fun 1190 project until 2:30am. See you at the races . . . . | ||
| Guell |
What if their goal was not a podium finish but to see, with the motor running at that level on a track heavily skewed against the bike, to see where they could runic the pack, how long they could do it and what kind of trap speed one of the riders could marshal on a chosen lap. honestly saying their goal wasnt a podium finish is just stupid, you always want a podium finish, whether you blow up the engine or not... | ||
| F22raptor |
EBR techs.... | ||
| Court |
154 | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Court you kill me....may have to return the favor some day.... I can see what you're saying. If that's the case I'm really hoping that part of that engineering experiment funding would include replacement/upgrade parts for the non-EBR fielded EBR1190, just sayin.... | ||
| Reepicheep |
Huh? "Want" a podium finish, or "only goal is a podium finish". What would be stupid is to believe a team with Erik Buell influencing it would ever have just one goal. Why would his business or racing be any different? Since when did he ever let an engineer bring him one part that didn't do at least two things? And after a season of solid finishes, when you have two riders and at least three motors ready to go, why on earth wouldn't you give team orders to "find the limits of this motor, or win trying". | ||
| Darth_villar |
I can't obviously speak for anything of EBR as I do not work for them. But coming from the people that developed a stator fix for a problem that was NOT theirs to fix, and selling it to the general public at VERY reasonable prices... I see absolutely no reason they would not hook up the customers of their own bikes to insure such failures do not happen again. 205 mph trap speed, I can dig that. Can't wait for more racing! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
the motor thing sucks, and yes, three riders didnt start/finish a race due to motor issues....but also tink of when it was a new bike last year and May had ZERO DNFs Yes, we all know that Court knows what he is speaking of, and I can definitely see the point of what he is getting at. It sucks cause that is points they werent able to gain towards the championship, but maybe it'll pay off later in the season knowing the absolute limits of their motor | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
Idk if this is a stupid question..but did EBR ever rebuild the engines from last season? Jake | ||
| Guell |
Huh? "Want" a podium finish, or "only goal is a podium finish". did you miss the part where court said what if the goal was not a podium finish. "find the limits of this motor, or win trying". basically what I said... | ||
| Whatever |
Boogi, they made you give them back the shirt, didn't they? From what I heard, Danny got off the track because of "a vibration" he was uncomfortable with. He may have saved his own life and other riders, I don't know... Erik said they crated it and will analyze it at home. I would not be surprised if they get all this sorted out before the next race and we see May and Eslick both in the top five next time... In fact I sort of expect it! | ||
| Boney95 |
Ummmm, couldn't they have found the limits of the engine on a dyno? That would make more sense, instead of finding out at the first race of the season, at Daytona? | ||
| Crusty |
You know; you can run bikes on a dyno; you can go to test tracks and wring the piss out of them; you can think that everything is under complete control. But when the Green Flag drops is the only way to know positively that you've got it all sorted out.That's always been true in racing, and it always will. Over the years, I've seen what Erik and his band of magicians have accomplished. I don't believe that this problem will surface again. They found an unexpected weak link in their chain. They will find a satisfactory solution. | ||
| 46champ |
Things are found on the track that won't show up on the dyno. Drafting is hard to simulate, as well as road vibration and slippage. A dyno could be built to simulate all these things but it would be like a full motion simulator for an airliner ends up costing more than the plane. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Far as I can see, there's only one person who knows all of it & he ain't saying. (no surprise there) I think Court's being a little disingenuous in asking us to believe that they weren't racing to win, in order to put a nice gloss on events. But hey, I wasn't there, wtf do I know? | ||
| Barker |
"Ummmm, couldn't they have found the limits of the engine on a dyno? That would make more sense, instead of finding out at the first race of the season, at Daytona?" How do dynos compensate for temp/air pressure and more importantly a 200mph head-on wind? | ||
| Boney95 |
Sorry, just a question, and I don't like excuses. | ||
| Tq_freak |
"Ummmm, couldn't they have found the limits of the engine on a dyno? That would make more sense, instead of finding out at the first race of the season, at Daytona?" +1 Barker Also the 3g's they were pulling on the banking adds a RIDICULOUS load on the whole bike, try to recreate that | ||
| Oldog |
Learning is part of racing, Break it fix it repeat At HC2010 I asked EB what the theoretical top speed of the 1190 was, I was told 190 Erik Called the shop to confirm this.... Fast forward 2 years to 2010 and the RECORDED top speed is 205 Never Never Never! count the elves out.... This will be an interesting year for Racing GO EBR / HERO ! | ||
| Ohsoslow |
How do dynos compensate for temp/air pressure and more importantly a 200mph head-on wind? if you have a dyno room you can control temp, humidity etc. dynos and with the correct software can simulate hills, wind, etc. } | ||
| Sifo |
The only thing that accurately simulates racing is racing. "find the limits of this motor, or win trying". That's how it's always been done. That's how it will be done for the foreseeable future. Once it no longer needs to be done that way racing becomes pointless. | ||
| Slaughter |
You people are fantisizing. Computer simulation requires a fully instrumented machine which will MEASURE the desired effects and then those measurements are used to imput into the program. I do testing. If you think tuning is complex, try SIMULATING! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
There are some things you just can't simulate. It's why you race. It's why the game is played. It's why you ask the girl out who in paper would NEVER go out with you. Bumble bees can't fly on paper according to Andre Sainte-Lague, but they do every day. How many real world "issues" have we ALL found on our bikes that testing didn't reveal? | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Booigie wrote; "5 engines in 3 days??" I only count 3 engine failures, where's the other 2? Generally speaking, the bikes are are the same angle as the banking. However, the given forces and higher speeds for extended periods of time may cause the rear tire to expand simular to that of a dragster tire. Racing at the club level or non-factory pro level, podiums, wins and championships SHOULD be the goal. Racing at the factory level with brand new, unproven bikes? This... "What if someone actually decided to take the motor, at the very first race of the season on the toughest track there is to run on a twin, up against it's absolute (engineering term) limit to see how long they could run it. What if their goal was not a podium finish but to see, with the motor running at that level on a track heavily skewed against the bike, to see where they could runic the pack, how long they could do it and what kind of trap speed one of the riders could marshal on a chosen lap." Dyno runs are a TOOL in engine developement, not a be all end all (ask Xopti). Racing is the ULTIMATE developemental test. The Pegasus Team is running an 1190, not sure what type of tracks they are running it on though. Although EBR didn't win in the sense of 1st place, they certainly "won" invaluble knowledge and proved a small company can mix it up. Lest we forget the 1190RS is only 2 years old and had never been raced at Daytona prior to 2012. 6th and 9th is very respectable IMO. | ||
| Davegess |
First, I have no idea what happened, I was not there and have not made any effort to find out what happened. Second, most of us on this board have no idea what happened, we just know what Geoff said. Third, the idea that EBR has somehow jumped the shark because they had ONE engine failure is wacky. A customer also had an engine failure BUT I think one needs to keep customer issue separate; who knows how many hours on the engine or what mods were made. Fourth, racing involves failure. Anyone here old enough to remember the Ford conquest of LeMans? 3 cars across the line together for an attempted tie (Ken Miles got screwed but that is a story for a different day). How many years of complete failure before that conquest? 2? 3? Just sayin'. Daytona was a pretty decent outing. OK results, decent press coverage although I would have like to hear SPEED talk about Hero a bit; maybe next time for that. | ||
| Sifo |
Did all the bikes even have identical gearing? One tooth difference on the rear sprocket can be the difference between a great day and a grenade. When you add drafting down a long straight away into the mix it can really get complicated. I accept what Geoff said about pushing to hard while drafting. That can be controlled with the rider, the gearing, or parts/design. |
