| Author | Message | ||
     Macbuell |
Does anyone here watch that Doomsday Preppers show on A&E? It's pretty interesting, IMO. Part of me thinks these folks are absolutely nuts. Another part of me thinks they are smart. On to the other topic ... I'm about to pick up an AR15. I picked out the S&W M&P15 Sport since I don't want to spend too much money. Any thoughts on this gun? Lastly, I read an article that states you should but hollow point Ammo for Self defense even for an AR. That ammo is expensive. I was planning on just buying some good Federal .223 ammo that you can get cases of 500 for less than $200. Any thoughts on this? | ||
| Prowler |
Considering if you were actually using this gun for "self defense", and you can empty a clip into someone in a matter of seconds, hollow points or not doesn't really matter....... I had an AR15 Sporter (collapsing stock model) long ago, sold it for $500, wish I would have kept it. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
I watched the show, was bummed out it was a bunch of nut jobs. But if you go to ar15.com there is actually a thread where the party girl starts posting. Apparently they are editing a lot of things out to make these people seem like the nut jobs that they are. Yeah, they seem like nut jobs. M&P 15s are nice, my father has one I hae the 15-22 by Smith, I love it guns rule | ||
| Sifo |
It's my understanding that the .223 being a fairly light round, tends to tumble quickly when it hit's anything. Tends to make hollow points unnecessary. The S$W is a nice gun. I've fired a friends chambered in .22 LR. Wonderful shooting gun. I think the Preppers show tries to make them look like nuts. Some probably are. Some make a fair amount of sense. | ||
| Fb1 |
Macbuell, re: FMJ vs JHP rounds for your AR, is your definition of "self-defense" reaching out and touching someone at 100+ yards, or 7 yards? | ||
| Jramsey |
".223 being a fairly light round,tends to tumble quickly when it hit's anything." Urban legend. It may be deflected by bone or some other hard object. | ||
| Kc10_fe |
Self defense preppin requires a Mossberg 500. ARs are for reaching out. | ||
| Macbuell |
I have a handgun for close quarter stuff. This gun will be for plinking mostly but if there is some sort of strange event in which I need I want to be able to put someone down and not worry about it. By strange event I mean some instance where I feel like the handgun just isn't going to cut it ... you know ... like a zombie apocalypse. It's going to be locked in a gun case and hidden away as I don't want my son getting a hold of it. So I can't see myself running and grabbing it in the middle of the night as the handgun is always by my bedside. | ||
| Slaughter |
The 5.56 round more often would break up at the cannelure than it would tumble - regardless, putting MORE energy into the target is always better than drilling a small hole. Go back a bunch of decades to when they were experimenting with a .50-cal sabot for a flechette. They could get that dart to shoot nearly flat for a couple kilometers. Problem was that a head shot to a test goat wouldn't do much except make a pinhole through his skull. He could shake it off and heal up. | ||
| Fb1 |
ARs are for reaching out. My point exactly, although.......I've read several self-defense experts talk about the benefits of semi-auto long gun for self-defense in the home vs a pistol. I'm thinkin' an AR equipped with a 30-round mag full of JHP would be a formidable self-defense tool to have at your bedside. I'd be reluctant to load FMJ in ANY home-defense gun due to wall penetration (mine and my neighbor's and their neighbor's) concerns. If "self-defense" in Macbuell's case means 100+ yards, the cheaper FMJ seems like the way to go, and perhaps more accurate at long-distance than JHP? | ||
| Darth_villar |
Hand guns are for getting you to real weapons :P I'm not a big fan of AR 15s, having used them for 6 years in the military. There are a lot better platforms out there that fire 5.56mm. That said, there are high quality ARs out there, and a common mag and caliber would be good in a doomsday scenario. I'm personally a fan of DPMS AR15s and AR10s. High quality and well priced. | ||
| Mnrider |
I have a S&W AR 15 Sport. It only has about 300 round through it so far but it's been flawless. Accurate for a short barrel gun and I like the look and feel of it. I looked at a DPMS but a friend has one and likes my S&W better. | ||
| Macbuell |
Like I said, this will mostly be for plinking. I can't see myself having a ton of weapons and, at this time, just plan on my 9MM and the AR. I looked into the Ruger Mini 14 but in the end thought the S&W M&P15 Sport was the best gun for the money. I may someday look into a shotgun but I think the AR is the better, do everything weapon. Anyway, that's just my thoughts. Maybe I should get about 50 rounds of the JHP Ammo and keep one mag full and at the ready of that stuff and just use the FMJ ammo for plinking. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
make that two votes for DPMS | ||
| Buellkowski |
I want to be able to put someone down and not worry about it. ARs are designed for portability, not necessarily lethality. If you aren't planning to carry the thing (with clips of ammo) a great distance, I suggest looking for something in a larger caliber. There is no replacement for displacement. However, if you're of a "militia" mindset... | ||
| Macbuell |
With a limited budget there isn't much for options for a larger displacement rifle. I did look at the Ruger Scout rifle but I don't want a bolt action and it's out of my price range anyway. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I agree with Darth and Buellkowski. However, for doomsday scenarios finding ammo might be a problem for some of the other calibers other than the .223(plentiful). The gas piston AR's ( think AK-47) would be a better choice but they are more expensive than gas tube type AR's. Personally, my apocalypse collection consists of a Robinson XCR in .223 and a Benelli M4 | ||
| Nukeblue |
the m&p sport is a great choice. i've owned everything from dpms,bushmaster, stag, all the way up to the exotic lwrc. you'll be great with the m&p sport. i'm picking up one of those soon myself  but if you've got the money, my main battle rifle is the m1a. three times the energy than the .223. they say "you can't hide from a .308!" and "protection from the 5.56 is mere cover from the .308" something along those lines lol. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Meh. Get a $79 Mosin and 1000 rounds of ammo. And as cool as the black guns are, if it was my money and my "hitting the fan" moment, I'd want an AK-74 and LOTS of ammo. If it's zombies, I'm going for the neighbors crossbow. | ||
| Mnrider |
I've been shooting that Federal American Eagle AR ammo,30$ for 100 rounds. | ||
| Kenm123t |
the first AR 15- 16 were designed to tumble and be unstable they had 1-12 barrels it was designed to dump energy in to the target ala hollow points without the Geneva convention proscribed hollow points. current 15 16 issue barrels are 1-7 barrel I perefer 1-9s they last a little longer SS109 in a 1-7 barrel is a drill bit for body armor but not as good on unarmoured personnel If you wanting a Ar look into a DM AR 15 AR s are very accurate inside 300 rapid fire you should have a 2" or less circle AKs a US made one is the one to buy. Comm bloc not so much Aks you shoot a mag and check the pattern kinda like a shotgun but they do go bang every time. | ||
| Sifo |
".223 being a fairly light round,tends to tumble quickly when it hit's anything." Urban legend. It may be deflected by bone or some other hard object. Perhaps. Perhaps not. http://www.bobtuley.com/terminal.htm
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| Jramsey |
"the first AR 15- 16 were designed to tumble and be unstable they had 1-12 barrels" The faster twist barrels stabilize heavier bullets of the 60-70 gr.variety better than the slower twist for enhanced long range performance. The only time a bullet tumbles is when the shooter is careless and drops it on the ground. | ||
| Sifo |
There's some pretty detailed images of the terminal ballistics of the .223 that show it tumbling and fragmenting for an urban legend... http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal.htm
At least the images of this urban legend are pretty consistent.  | ||
| Kenm123t |
Sifo The tumbling occurs in the target The bullet basically Yaws in flight so the tip rotated through nearly a .50 cal dia during flight The AMU builds the .556 designated sniper rifle for the squad snipers they are so accurate the guys could hit any body part they wished see a foot in the scope bang same thing for head shots A DM is issued a G-4 Load handloaded 77 or 80 grain vld ( very low drag bullets. ) when the barrel need to be replaced they strip the upper and pitch it with the barrel. Its basically glued in when torqued in place. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Bingo Kenm....the bullet wouldn't be very accurate if it tumbled the second it left the barrel !!! People disagree over guns probably as much or more than politics. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I actually think the 6.5 is a better choice then the .223 but it's not as readily available and is more expensive. | ||
| Ulyranger |
I haven't watched the "reality" show, but pretty much figured they were going to frame it to look like a bunch of freaks. Having said that, if you are not somehow looking out for your own household by having a minimum inventory of necessary supplies in the event of incident (insert your emergency here) I don't want to hear your whining about FEMA's five day water. Have not fired the S&W, but hear it is a fine rifle. If this is going to a first and only purchase for a new gas-gunner I'd highly recommend staying with the established caliber.......in this case being an AR that would be 5.56. Oh, and to the FMJ vs JHP; FMJ is for plinking or to comply with Geneva. JHP is for killing stuff and accuracy. Though to be honest the match grade HPs tend not to perform with the best expansion characteristics. (Message edited by Ulyranger on March 08, 2012) | ||
| Aesquire |
The info on the FMJ .223 is true. Todays stuff is different. The subject of terminal ballistics is..... complicated. There are opinions, facts, and theories. I'm usually reluctant to go into technical details on a web forum, since we are talking life, death, wounds, etc. Shattered and splintered bone, temporary and permanent crush cavities, blood loss, nervous system shock/damage.... It's all very icky. I dan't have a problem with icky, I play first aid guy sometimes, and have seen some broken critters, human and other mammals. But many people get upset by medical "stuff". The kind of anecdotes I usually deal with are colored by the wry and fatalistic humor of EMT's and Police. One reason my Father hates motorcycles is oft related to me, about a poor fellow in San Fran that was run through a Bridge's steel grate deck by a bus, with terms like, "shower" and "all over" used. Dad was on the Ambulance crew.... True, this story was told With deliberate intent to influence by a US Naval Corpsman who served with the US Marines in Korea.  So to avoid upset to the squeamish, I suggest we skip the mechanics, and just jump to MY opinion. ( feel free to disagree... That's tha nature of the beast. ) Sites with ballistic gel and even hunting wounds are out there, and if folk are curious will post links... But for just fun, and reasonably accurate testing I like the Box-O-Truth guys. The first one. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm The variables are so huge that ALL I can do is generalize. People have been shot with Cannon and cut nigh in half, and lived. ( rare ) Others get the "golden BB" and drop like a stone. ( See Baldur of Norse myth ) Hollow point or polymer tipped bullets expand, sometimes, and, sometimes, don't over penetrate and hurt folk behind the target. So they are to be preferred for rational civilian self defense. It's both smart and polite. Which is best? A GREAT argument. Feel free to go at THAT one. I'll join in. By all means use cheaper/surplus/reloaded ammo of any bullet type for practice. ( observing safety and range rules. Soft points might be in order for shooting steel plates, for example ) You should learn how to zero for different ammo types, and maintain proficiency, understand the external ballistics ( how it flys ) of the bullet and be able to put it where you want to with, alas, varying degrees of success. At least that's what I attempt, poorly.....  End Rant. How is the quality on the S&W's? I thought the .223's were made by Bushmaster? Or they were when S&W started marketing them. There are a buncha Companies in the same sporting goods group. I find Bushmaster's quality quite good, with some exceptions. I've seen cruddy 10 rd mags, just awful. And on some models the fit of upper and lower are "normal" ( loose enough to be inter-changable, no effect on accuracy at all, mind you, just looser than a Les Baer or other Small firm high end hand fitted models. Discuss. | ||
| Jramsey |
"The bullet basically Yaws in flight so the tip rotated through nearly a .50 cal dia during flight" Pure Bullshit!If that were true every shot fired at a paper target would be full of keyholes! (Message edited by Jramsey on March 08, 2012) |
