| Author | Message | ||
     Thumper74 |
Interesting, aren't the rounds illegal in California? You know, to stop crime? | ||
| Garryb |
I have a Glock 20SF, it does have some recoil, more than my 9mm, but I can keep a 5in tight group with pretty rapid fire at 30 ft and I have only fired about 75 rounds so far, its new. With 15+1 of 10mm, it's the handgun I would bring if I thought I was heading into trouble. (Message edited by garryb on February 17, 2012) (Message edited by garryb on February 17, 2012) | ||
| Sifo |
As I understand the .50 BMG has never been used in a violent crime in the US. Imagine trying to stick up the 7-11 with something like this!   | ||
| M1combat |
"Interesting, aren't the rounds illegal in California? You know, to stop crime?" The rifles are. Not certain about the ammunition. I'm thinking no but it doesn't matter. F*** CA. "The legislature of California declared that "proliferation and use" of .50 BMG rifles posed a terrorist threat, as well as a threat to the "health, safety, and security of all residents" of California. The act required existing .50 BMG rifles to be registered with the state and prohibited the sale of any rifle after the ban went into effect. To quote the state web site, the act "regulates the .50 BMG rifles in essentially the same manner as assault weapons." The law specifically allowed a registration period of one year, now passed, to register any such firearms, after which unregistered weapons would become illegal firearms." | ||
| M1combat |
Oh and... Don't buy a .40 until you've tried an H&K USP .40. http://mactec-militaryarms.com/hk_usp40.html | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
"You all need to try a Beretta Px4 in .40" That was a suggestion. If you have never shot one then there is no way to tell one way or the other. Reasonable minds might want to experience before they make statements based on conjecture or opinion? The advantage of the .40 S+W is it has a significant amount of more energy than a .45. That is important to a lot of people. Everything is a compromise. How about a 327 mag? Good Energy level and low recoil. | ||
| Aesquire |
Most of the shootings I refer to are police shoots. They have the best documentation as to ammo, etc. More than one writer has been collecting data from police agencies for years to try and settle "which is the best stopper" AFAIK, no civilians have shot anyone with a .50BMG. Except for that famous video of a ricochet taking a shooters earmuffs off. I very much like the 10mm. It has the "power" of a .45, but stretches the range out past 100 yards. Even the guys who pushed it's development came to agree it wasn't really what the police wanted, not that they didn't like it, but it fell into the same marketing crack as the .41 magnum. Which was originally made only in a full goose load, and a reduced one because of complaints about recoil. If you want a semi pistol round that can take a deer at 100 yards, and stop a car, the 10mm is it. I find it notably harsher to shoot than a 9mm, especially in a baby Glock ( with only 2 fingers hanging on. ) but little else equals the power to size ratio. ( also available in a S&W 610 Revolver with full moon clips ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhAtRa6PwtQ As far as recoil goes, a full bore 240 grain .44 magnum ( in a classic "dirty harry" model 29 ) is right at the limit of my comfort zone. There are .357 loads in a snubby that are harsher. I find a .44 Automag ( Dirty Harry in "The Dead Pool" ) very harsh, mostly because the grip is like a 2x4. This are all very subjective. I certainly don't think less of a guy who doesn't like that level of recoil, but admit to some fear for the rationality of someone who claims to enjoy shooting a 12ga. "Cruiser" pistol gripped shotgun with magnum loads. YMMV. A lot. Ballistic gel. While the wax filled "bullet test tube" is near ideal for personal testing, proper ballistic gel testing requires a temperature controlled fridge to store the gel, mixing it from powder the right amount of time in advance, and calibration with a BB gun that has been itself calibrated with a chronograph to know the exact velocity of the BB. Immediately after shooting the gel with the BB and measuring depth of penetration you then use a correction factor for the rest of the test. Unless the temperature changes too much, then you have to recalibrate. It's a royal pain. And I'm talking as a guy who made a living as a Metrology lab tech and had to take into account the humidity & altitude when using an optical comparator to measure....... uh. Stuff. Shop down the street made the "worlds smallest drill bit". Sent it in a test tube to their competitor in W. Germany to brag. They sent it back a few months later with a hole drilled crossways through it. Balistic gel is also heavy, and just damn annoying. It's also a very arbitrary reference, but, I freely admit, a very nice visual aid. The Box o' The "original chapters" show the progression, Locks, cars, stuff.... If you want super accurate data with actual wound profiles and ballistic gel properly calibrated and expertly photographed... that's out there. I just didn't want to post a link that could take you very quickly to a dead critter pic. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm As a really really rough rule of thumb, you want a round that will go through 2 milk jugs, but not 5 for some writers optimum... FBI standards? You FBI? They've got a lab. Read their reports. ( they're good, a bit dry. "It's fun to shoot and which locks to buy interest ME more. YMMV ) | ||
| Sifo |
Reasonable minds might want to experience before they make statements based on conjecture or opinion? My reasons for discarding the Px4 would have nothing to do with how it shoots. I can look at the picture and see things that just are not what I would want as a defense gun. That is nothing but my personal choice and I wouldn't try to say it's correct for anyone else. The 327 mag is an interesting caliber choice. From what I've heard they tend to still be a bit of a stinger just because they tend to be very small guns. Nice pocket gun though. Everything is a compromise. +1 | ||
| Sifo |
The advantage of the .40 S+W is it has a significant amount of more energy than a .45. That is important to a lot of people. Honestly most of the rounds discussed in this thread tend to do a pretty credible job.   | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
Honestly most of the rounds discussed in this thread tend to do a pretty credible job. Sure do agree there! Guns, calibre, motorcycles, women, politics, ect.... are always subject to hugh amounts of personal preference and opinion. ...and that is what makes life interesting and fun  | ||
| Aesquire |
Old saying. A hand gun is only good for getting a shotgun, which is only good for getting a rifle. At that... a rock is only good for getting a tank.....  Gun writers say...... vs. the real world. "minimum cal is a .380" ".380 is too wimpy" "9mm is too wimpy" "Brittney Spears is a great singer" Lots of opinions. Most are wrong. A .22 will do the job, sometimes, if you are a real good shot. So, I might add, will my 14th century crossbow. Toss in an 11th century battle axe ( hand forged, copied from the Tower of London's collection ) and a Ford Van, you got some deadly power there. I, however, seldom carry the Crossbow or axe. They get looks. MY opinion is that the .380 is marginal, Some .38 special loads are too, like the classic 200gr. lead round nose that famously will bounce off car side window glass. Anything more than that? probably work... sorta. There are probably thousands of pages of argument on line and at least than many in magazines on the "best" caliber and load. Remington GS45APA Golden Saber™ 185 Brass-Jacketed Hollow Point Muzzle energy. 423 50yds 372 100 yds 332 GS45APC Golden Saber™ 185 Brass-Jacketed Hollow Point +P Muzzle energy. 534 50yds 446 100 yds 338 GS45APB Golden Saber™ 230 Brass-Jacketed Hollow Point Muzzle energy. 391 50yds 355 100 yds 323 GS40SWB Golden Saber™ 180 Brass-Jacketed Hollow Point Muzzle energy. 412 50yds 368 100 yds 334 165 grain ... 485 396 340 180 grain 10mm 529 452 398 Honestly, I don't see that big a difference. ( between .40 and .45 ) That's all one manufacture, 1 bullet type, and 4 weights, 2 calibers... There IS one big difference. The .45 and the 10mm fit one size frame. the .40 and the 9mm fit a larger frame. | ||
| Darth_villar |
Shot placement is far more vital than caliber. That being said, I love my FN 5.7 more than any other combat pistol I have yet used. IMHO, get a caliber that does NOT tend to make you flinch and make mistakes, then invest in a weapons course, and then practice continually. Marksmanship is a perishable skill, the more reflex, and less thinking you do, the more beneficial it will be if the need to use that weapon ever arises. | ||
| Kenm123t |
less Flinch is how we got the 38 s&w that got a lot guys killed in the phillipines when locals were on drugs. Single action army 45s were reissued and we finally got the 1911 in 45acp The drugged locals would take 6 rounds of 38 then hack the soldier to death with his bolo and the two of them bled out together. I have trained 12 year old girls to shoot 06 Garands they dont flinch. then I have tried to teach 50 year old guys that jump up and jerk when the 06 fires I ll load in dummy rounds in the clip to show a guy how bad his flinch is could be the first on or any of the 8 its funny to watch how much preconditions people have limit thier performance | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Just rambling... I love my hand cannons! 444 Marlin in a T/C Contender...where I got the nick name "Earthquake" 7mm 3.08 in an XP-100 Dan Wesson 445 Super Mag High Standard 44 Auto mag Big or small,I love them all. Most accurate: my 50Bmg 1,000 yard bench rest rifle and a .17 Remington in a SSK T/C Contender....the key fob on my Honda is a quarter,holed at 250 yards with the .17 (and is very repeatable) Fastest pin gun was a borrowed 4" S&W full house 44 mag that beat my best Gold Cup time. Sans the .17,all were used regularly in competition. For some damnable reason,I have a M2HB being built......soon to arrive....  | ||
| Aesquire |
The dummy round is an excellent training device. Lasers and dry fire practice are good too. Insert here safety lecture involving never ever having live rounds in the room when doing dry fire practice with bright orange snap caps.... Does wonders for trigger control. It's darned embarrassing watching the little dot dance. The .38 issued in the Spanish American War was quite a bit wimpier than the modern .38 S&W Special. There's been a long dispute on hole size, energy deposited, etc. and without going into gorey details, it is in the end, a crap shoot. The variables are myriad enough... So what I really want is a Star Trek Stun Gun. Don't need to heat rocks, ( ok, I want that too... ) Or even burn through walls, ( well, a little ) just make bad guys fall asleep and quit bothering people. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0bl4O9Hj0w | ||
| Darth_villar |
I can understand where you are coming from Ken, but if people start off flinching right away, it is much more difficult to correct their bad habits later. Better to start on low recoil and build good habits, then up the caliber. I have seen lightweights (100lbs) fire the .50 AE round without a problem, it is all about proper position and technique. Edit: And as I said, shot placement is key, along with training. I would much rather prefer multiple on target shots, than few wild high power shots, but that is coming from an Infantryman :P Many people substitute lower caliber and higher magazine capacity thinking more shots will protect them, I cannot stress enough proper training to utilize each round to the utmost. (Message edited by darth_villar on February 18, 2012) | ||
| Kenm123t |
I get the guys at High power Clinics after they pick up all the bad habits thier buddies and TV movies can teach them. Guys will lip service their coaches at which point if we can we get their wife G/F to TRY IT. Usually the ladies will out shoot the guy in about 2-3 sessions. Once that happens hubbie B/F will never catch up with her. Why you ask With the women I dont have to spend two years breaking bad habits and the BIG ONE they dont argue with the coach. One kid I had on a WHistler boy team shooting a very good Garand in 308 would slide around her shooting mat in recoil. We sprayed her jacket and rifle butt with Rifle Grip ( spray glue that stays tacky ) Great problem solved till she was shooting 300 rapids her and the mat started slipping back down the firing point we used scope stand spikes to hold her mat down like tent pegs. Dealing with recoil is pretty much perception till you start shooting 300 win mags. A semi auto UZi has much more apparent recoil as opposed to a MP5 H&K both shoot the 9mm Different actions blow back with springs for the UZi Delayed roller in the H&K Most will say that a Uzi really kicks and a MP 5 HK is a push rather than a kick. Flinch and trigger control drills are done with a RWS or Anshutz air rifle all of your bad habits show no recoil! (Message edited by kenm123t on February 18, 2012) | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Ballistic gel. While the wax filled "bullet test tube" is near ideal for personal testing, proper ballistic gel testing requires a temperature controlled fridge to store the gel, mixing it from powder the right amount of time in advance, and calibration with a BB gun that has been itself calibrated with a chronograph to know the exact velocity of the BB. Immediately after shooting the gel with the BB and measuring depth of penetration you then use a correction factor for the rest of the test. Unless the temperature changes too much, then you have to recalibrate. FWIW, it appears that tnoutdoors9 calibrates his SIM-TEST media just before each shoot via the BB method as you describe (and annotates his vids with that information). I'm not knocking the BoT; it is what it is, and I've learned a few things from sniffing around their site. But, I've learned more about which 9mm ammo is likely to be the most effective against a BG from the TN dude. Your mileage may vary; I know mine always does. | ||
| D_adams |
I kinda like this old guy on http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45. Nothing really scientific, just good presentation. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
I like him, too. He's got a darned good shooting eye. | ||
| Ridegreen2oo |
The dummy round is an excellent training device. Lasers and dry fire practice are good too. Insert here safety lecture involving never ever having live rounds in the room when doing dry fire practice with bright orange snap caps.... Does wonders for trigger control. It's darned embarrassing watching the little dot dance. +1 on this for sure. In our academy, we had several shooters that have never shot a handgun in their life and learned on our .40 cal. They ended up being some of the better shooters because they had no bad habits to break. They start on all dummy rounds just to get used to trigger feel and trigger control. Then a magazine mixed with live rounds and dummy rounds. They teach to not attempt to control the recoil. You aren't going to stop the pistol from kicking back at you. If you grip the weapon and try to attempt it from kicking, you are going to point the nose of the pistol towards the ground and shoot low. If you try to squeeze the trigger too fast to "beat the recoil", you shoot down and to the left. If you do either of those when you hit a dummy round, it's plain as day to see what you are doing wrong. If you let the gun kick like it wants to, it shoots straight. I went from being just an average pistol shooter, to pretty decent by practicing smooth trigger control and letting the pistol kick how it wants to. I'm by no means a competition shooter, but we shoot silhouette targets and at 15 yards I'm in the 5 ring all day. 25 yards I'm still hitting center mass. Caliber shouldn't really effect your aim, because the recoil comes after the round is fired. If you are smooth on the trigger and have a good sight picture, the round will go where you aim it. It's all mental, scaring yourself that it's going to be scary when it goes boom. Now if we are talking rapid fire, shooting rounds downrange as fast as physically possible, yes recoil will affect your follow up shots because the muzzle will go higher in the air, and it will taking more work to get it back on target. But if you are doing rapid fire, you are probably going to be pretty close to the target where precision is not necessary. | ||
| Reepicheep |
A single pump pellet pistol in the garage with a LITTLE target at 10 yards is also a GREAT training device. If you can't hold a good group in the first place, learning not to anticipate won't help. Plus, you can shoot every day, and 500 rounds will run you $6 or so. | ||
| Ridegreen2oo |
A pellet gun is a good economical way to work on the basics. By shooting a pellet pistol, you will still be learning not to anticipate. Smooth trigger pull, don't anticipate, and proper sight alignment. They go hand in hand. Without one or any of those, you can't shoot a good group. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Reep you get it some years i can hustle the kids on the AMU Get them on the air rifle range and they shoot rifles I shoot my air pistol targets or silhoutees. On a good year I can pay for my ammo and some other goodies with AMU money or get a rifle built by the AMU armourers hehe | ||
| Aesquire |
....there are just things about the Px4 that would make me not want that model. NOT wanting to argue here, just curious. I haven't tried the Px4. The Baretta M9 has a few things I don't like. One. It's a "crunchandticker" The harder double action first pull and lighter single action second, third, etc. shots are a challenge to adapt to. Not impossible, just harder. Two. The disassembly method make it easier than most to dis-arm a fellow. Had that demonstrated to me by a NY State Trooper, ex Rhodesian Security Forces. Pretty much last thing to want to do for real, but a psych issue, at least. Other than that, and a tendency for high times ones to have cracks, a fine weapon. | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
NOT wanting to argue here, just curious. I haven't tried the Px4. The Baretta M9 has a few things I don't like..... I had a 92/M9 Beretta years ago and did not like the DA pull on it. In general, I really do not like the M9 either. Although I have not recently compared the DA pull to my current Px4, I find the first DA pull on both my Px4's to be smooth and reasonable and the subsequent SA pretty good. I don't see a problem with the take down on the Storm series. The Px4 is a different animal, the DA/SA fire control, I do not have a issue with it and for me tends to be safe and fast to deploy. (safety off, hammer down) It is another choice in the wide array of available weapons and as we all know subject to person preference, experience, practice, and training. ...also enjoy working wth my 1911 type and striker-fired handguns too. I am glad we have all these choices (Message edited by ninefortheroad on February 18, 2012) | ||
| Reepicheep |
I always liked the harder double action pull... it tells me something different is going on (starting out with a 1911, I wasn't even ever used to double action ever being an option). | ||
| Aesquire |
I know this is heresy.... In the 1911 realm, I favor the Paraord LDA's. I like the trigger pull, like a 1950's Smith & Wesson, and that there is no change in pull from first to last. Ideal, for me in a 1911 is an alloy frame Commander size. I'm even comfortable with Para's double stack grip so that gives me 10+1 rounds ( New York and other Clinton/Handgun Inc. anti Constitution states ... 14+1 in free states ) Or, shorter variants like the Para Carry. It should be noted that the LDA system takes down differently than the Original Browning, enough that you can break the gun unless you RTFM. You cannot, ( actually must not ) for example, thumb c ock a LDA. There is no single action mode. I'm not comfortable with "Condition one" carry, cocked & locked, in a 1911. ( to non 1911 shooters there are 3 basic modes of carry. Condition 1, with loaded chamber, hammer cocked, safety on. 2, with loaded chamber, hammer down, safety on, 3 with empty chamber, hammer down, safety on. ) I've seen too many cases where the safety is off from unnoticed contact, or poor holster design. I know it's SOP for IPSC etc. competition, and the single action only trigger is still one of the best for accuracy. I favor condition 2 ( NOT favored by most gun writers ) but have safe/practiced thumb cocking..... Which is in the 1911 world close to printing insulting cartoons about islam. Condition 3 is standard military carry for smart militarys which requires you to cycle the slide before use. The safest way to carrry, and the slowest. Yes, I know the 1911 has many and redundant safeties, and that some have hatred for post 1970 etc. Colts for ruining the trigger pull with a firing pin block safety. Others dislike Kimber which IIRC uses the grip safety to work the firing pin block. I don't know why. ( the firing pin block is to prevent discharge when the firing pin slams the primer under acceleration, such as when the gun is dropped, ( an AR-15 issue as well ) or the hammer struck when down on a full chamber. To those Non- 1911 guys, just ignore the above and continue to enjoy your choices, and continue to discuss second strike capacity, etc. | ||
| Thesmaz |
I know that this thread has changed direction numerous times but I wanted to give a report on my day at the range with the KelTec FP9. I put a couple of boxes through it and after I adjusted the windage of the rear sight it was dead on. I didnt have a single malfunction, which I was expecting after reading a lot of stuff on the internet. I gave it a real good cleaning and didnt have to do any filling or other adjustments to any of the internals. It was a bit difficult getting the Laserlyte side-mounted laser dialed in and get used to shooting with one but I got the hang of it. I also put a couple of boxes through my Sig 226 9mm, I love that thing! |
