| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
The technology isn't there for a mass produced electric car. The Hybrids are an expensive path to reasonable economy. The math just doesn't work yet for a pure electric. What is exciting is that the math DOES almost work for a pure electric motorcycle! If the Zero bikes were $5000 instead of $10000, they couldn't build a factory big enough to keep them in stock. If they were $7000, I will seriously consider them as is. They aren't far from that. And I am VERY hopeful that a company that is an old and trusted friend will have something to tempt me soon. I expect that will be something special, so $10k might work for that. That'll be where the revolution starts. Of my 250 or so commuting days, there is no reason half of them can't be on a full electric vehicle. Which brings me back to the epic tragedy of the Volt / GM / Democratic party subsidy racket. I'm am annoyed that the government confiscates money from me then uses it in selfish interests. I am outraged that they do it badly. Most of the Bush "rescue" money annoyed me. It was bailing out businesses that should have been allowed to fail to make room for companies that weren't corrupt and stupid. But, from a business and banking standpoint, the math worked. We solved their short term liquidity problem, eliminated the risk that was threatening to kill their business, and they regrouped and repaid with interest. We shouldn't have meddled, but the math works. The money spent since then is just being pi&&ed away. And its debt my kids will have to pay back with compound interest. Politicians ought to be put in jail for spending money they haven't collected. | ||
| Guell |
If I could get an electric bike that could do 80mph, for 5k I would immediately buy one. I can recharge at work too | ||
| Hootowl |
GM purchased the most expensive air time available (during the super bowl) to air a new Volt commercial. Everyone who has any intention of buying a Volt already knows about them, and has been slobbering over them since they were in the design phase. Who do they think they are advertising to? I'd like them to pay back the money we loaned them before splurging on expensive ads of questionable value. As soon as I don't own any of GMs stock, I don't care what they do. I suppose that's not quite accurate. As soon as I'm not on the hook for the money we borrowed from China to buy enough of GM to keep them afloat, I won't care what GM does with their money. In the interim, I'd like to see a modicum of fiscal responsibility exhibited by their leadership. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I wonder how much further Zero could have gotten if they got all the money GM got for the volt? How much further could that money have gone making a $10,000 bike that works into a $5000 bike that works... as opposed to trying to make a $50,000 car that doesn't work into a $35,000 car that doesn't work.  Like I said, at $5k, I don't think they could build a factory big enough to keep them in stock... And I'm with you. Reproduce my 1986 KLR 250 in electric. Top speed 80 MPH (given you take 5 minutes to get there). Range per charge 70 miles with mixed highway driving. At least 60% charge in 4 hours. $5k. ***SOLD*** | ||
| Froggy |
I love that electric car, he has some videos about it on his site. Regarding comparing to the EV1, it wasn't 100 years. The EV1 came out in 96, and Leno's car is a 1909, so thats about 87 years. Not to mention that there was about a 50 year period with next to no development, it really isn't a fair comparison. On another note, the Ford Model T got the same fuel economy as a modern SUV if you want to play that card.
I agree. It is a shame the bailout loans are having such a negative effect on the cars reputation, despite being 80%+ developed before anything related to bankruptcy or bailouts happened.
Care to elaborate what you mean by this? Batteries are designed to store power, not save energy.
I disagree. There aren't even many gas cars that can do that. If you can get a sufficient charge in less than 5 minutes, people wouldn't mind a 150 miles range. Obviously more the merrier.
It isn't time to stop development of alt fuels, it is time to increase development. CNG is one of them, I would love to see more CNG vehicles on the market, and a refueling network too.
I don't see how thats a problem. It isn't like it goes 100 miles once then you are stuck on the side of the road like the Leaf, Saturn EV1, or every other electric. Yea it is an expensive car, but it isn't your run of the mill Fiesta with leather seats.
Thats the problem I am finding, I can't find good solid numbers without bias. No mentions on the billions given to Ford, Chrysler, and the other automakers for various projects too. Everyone loves to hate on GM alone.
I honestly doubt it would be double, probably in the low to mid 50s.
Thats great, those are some great cars, but none of them have the ability to drive from the top to the bottom and back of Manhattan twice without burning a single drop of gasoline. Hell if I was 5 miles closer to work I could get a Volt and never buy a gallon of gas to commute again, then still have the ability to visit relatives in Connecticut without worrying about running out of power.
I agree, right now it is still in the early adopter phase, 5 years from now it will be a whole nother ball game, 10 years from now the roads will be quite a bit quieter. (Less noise, not necessarily less vehicles)
Sometimes I swear I'm in the wrong field!  | ||
| Xl1200r |
And I'm with you. Reproduce my 1986 KLR 250 in electric. Top speed 80 MPH (given you take 5 minutes to get there). Range per charge 70 miles with mixed highway driving. At least 60% charge in 4 hours. $5k. ***SOLD*** I wouldn't be nearly so quick to assume that these bikes would sell much better at half the price. I'm thinking that price is a small hinderance compared to the limitations of having an electric bike in the first place. With specs like those you gave, that bike would be good for commuting and running errands, and would leave me stranded on the side of the road if I dared take anything longer than a 2-hour joy ride, likely less. The issue you now run into is that, for the VAST majority of people, motorcycles are hobbies and not relied on for transportation. Couple this with the fact that something like 90% of Americans don't or can't afford to own more than 1 bike (this was a stat I read recently, sorry I can't cite it), which means the Zero would have to be a second bike. This makes for an incredibly small market. Yeah, you'd buy one and I might even consider it, but I'd still need to own and maintain a regular bike that, quite frankly, does everything a Zero does only better with the exception of using a little gas. I don't have to think twice about being stuck on the side of the road with a dead battery. | ||
| Court |
I stand corrected (I think) . . the media was flooded with stories about the Volt today. High (or low) lights . . .
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| Reepicheep |
Yes, I am absolutely looking at my future E-Bike as a second bike... not a first one. Which is why the super-motard or dual sport form factor is so appealing to me. Wheee! | ||
| Court |
Off topic . . . but I am also loving that Ford is building special Focus editions for owners who like to play at track days. http://jalopnik.com/5840660/this-ford-focus-racer- will-cost-you-100000 | ||
| Aesquire |
Froggy, The issue with me for the Volt is not the bailouts, ( an issue, but not with the Volt in particular ) it's the subsidies. Last figure I read was in the $78k range for a Volt without govt. input. You could sell a few hundred, maybe a thousand at that price to the "1%'s" that want to have a one up on their neighbor with a Hummer, but that's it. Like Leo Dicaprio and his Fisker. Boutique cars will always have a small market, and I'm really happy they do. Otherwise we wouldn't have Ferraris and the absurd Buggati. The world would be a poorer place without toys like that. The reason the Volt does not charge the battery in motion seems to be a government decision to make it an "electric car" not a "hybrid" for PR purposes. I truly wonder if the Volt wouldn't be a BETTER car without that decision? I understand the Prius has had many more years of development, and certainly don't expect Chevy to equal it's prowess the first year, but I've been watching the "electric motor integrated with the transmission" research for years now. Chevy, Chrysler, etc, have all put a LOT of money into making a better solution than Toyota makes, and the 2012 Volt looks like a crippled effort. And I blame the government for it not being the wundercar it's supposed to be. All in all a car that gets 32mpg real world and costs people who won't ever get to drive it between 15-30 thousand dollars each car to make a rich(er) fellow feel better about himself is a bad joke. I'm all for tax breaks and X-prizes for alt energy. I'm a vocal proponent of space based solar. ( where it never is cloudy.... unlike where I live ) I'm all hyped on the idea of algae diesel, Actually know what a MHD generator is, am a major fan of Safe Clean Nuclear power, ( with recycling ) and really love that Fusion has now passed break even. ( but that research is classified, and I can't get into details...) However. THIS admin's plans, as stated, is to make energy more expensive so that stuff that couldn't possibly compete can be foisted on us. It was one thing when a few looneys were getting used fry oil for free and using it in their cars, ( a situation fast disappearing as that tech becomes profitable, as I predicted ) It's another to try and force a planet to use fuels planned by politicians with no freaking clue as to the long term effects. Best recent example is ethanol from food. Starvation, revolution, ( and soon, all out war... see Egypt ) high food prices, inflation, and land destruction. ( corn is hard on soil ) The net energy cost for making the ethanol is so close to break even, that statistics can't tell if it's worth it, at all. ( and if there are that many bad side effects not figured into the price it's NOT worth it ) Now electric cars are cool. I happen to not be a customer, but for those who can afford multiple cars and have a short enough commute, it's nearly ideal. And the Volt won't leave you parked in the 'hood your App warned you about when your battery goes dead. Same with the Prius. Or, perhaps, you can buy a Prius, toss the warranty, pay an extra $10k for a reprograming and extra large battery and get a plug in hybrid that does better than a Volt, for cheaper. BTW, the old Iron acid batteries in Leno's century old car....... are pretty damn good. fairly light, pretty quick charging, and built to be repaired. The downsides are that they contain liquid sulfuric acid, and constantly emit hydrogen gas, even while idle. If you want electric cars, you need More power generating capacity. Period. ( unless you want to ration power for the proletariat so that the elite can charge their Fisker ) | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Why don't the Obaba Admin mandate that ALL military vehicle's be electric .... what about those drones too? I bet they would get real efficient real fast. Lets use up all the gas/oil folks and get the ball rolling.... Break out the 72' Caddy and plant more trees. (don't mind me, please continue...) | ||
| Boltrider |
40+ thousand is a lot of money. Outside of some Silicon Valley hipsters, what demographic is that car supposed to fit? | ||
| Kenm123t |
FRoggy CNG isnt a alt fuel its been a fuel for many years and its mostly methane so it has multiple sources Solar is like Cedar Shake roofs you use them when you dont have any thing else. Wind power the gear boxes are proving to be a problem the gears are failing faster than predicted. I get Gear magazine every issue has something about a wind tubine gear failure. The Dutch and Spain have stopped the wind farm subsidies the wind farms are gone as soon as new power plants can be built. If the wind solar etc were viable they would out sell Ipads Subsidies would not be needed | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Those gearboxes are freaking amazing. I have seen the assembly process. | ||
| Nik |
And I'm with you. Reproduce my 1986 KLR 250 in electric. Top speed 80 MPH (given you take 5 minutes to get there). Range per charge 70 miles with mixed highway driving. At least 60% charge in 4 hours. $5k. You could convert an old 86 KLR 250 to have all those specs for about $5k including the cost of the bike right now. It would probably have better acceleration than the donor too. I've been contemplating doing just that with a ninja 250. Though I would do it much cheaper with lead acid batteries and sacrifice range at first, then upgrade to LiPo (yep... kabooom!) later. | ||
| Aesquire |
Real alt energy isn't being pushed by this admin. Solar cells? Windmills? 14th century? Early 20th at best for photovoltaic. ( cough Solyndra, cough ) Nuclear. Thorium. Failsafe designs so when the power goes out, it either doesn't notice ( pebble bed ) or shuts down safely without humans punching a button. ( Thorium salt ) Fusion. ( the Navy is working on it. ) Orbital solar, supplied by Lofstrom loop, or Nuclear DCX. Douglas ( now mostly gone ) would have been happy to make DCX orbital ships... but the NASA guys nixed it as competition for the now defunct Shuttle. "oops we forgot to plug in the landing gear... sorry we wrecked your ship" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_DC- X http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/surfaceorbit.php# id--Lofstrom_loop http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/surfaceorbit.php# id--Nuclear_DC-X http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/atomicfuel.php | ||
| Hootowl |
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240529702041 36404577204982933314566.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopSto ries Woohoo! Your first order of business should be to buy back the stock I was forced to buy with the money I was forced to borrow. | ||
| Court |
I applaud their success. It WILL be interesting to see if they do the "right thing" and pay back what they owe the American taxpayers. | ||
| Blake |
Or is it less actual honest to goodness success, more inventory stacking, taxpayer funding and years of tax free profits?. Interesting http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/fox-tests -volt-runs-out-of-juice-in-lincoln-tunnel/ | ||
| Sifo |
As I understand it GM stock has to come up to $53 so that it can be sold at a break even price for the tax payers. Of course a big sell off by the government is likely to drive the price down again so it really needs considerable push past $53. It closed at $26.22 today.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
All the chevy and volt apologists need to shutup. If they didn't want my opinion of what a terrible idea it is, they shouldn't have forced me to use my taxes to subsidize it. One volt subsidy could probably have put between 5 and 100 Zero pure electric dual sports on the road and taken that many ICE's off. So even as subsidies go, the volt was just a stupid one. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.nationalreview.com/planet-gore/290164/t hink-electrics-are-good-investment-think-again-hen ry-payne A quick look at the Think’s specs and it’s apparent that taxpayers are being taken for suckers. The Think is a two-seater no bigger than a Smart car with a top speed of 65 mph and a price tag of — wait for it — $38,000 (before the federal $7,500 tax credit, natch). That’s a deal only a government could love. Now, for years I've wanted a full size van with a hybrid Diesel Electric drive train, in locomotive style mode. ( with batteries for zero-emmission/noise town driving ) as seen last millenia in Mother Earth News. Electric drive with a Kubota tractor engine to run the Generator. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportatio n/1979-07-01/Electric-Car-Conversion.aspx The price of the power conversion ( throttle ) hardware has gone down and the motor/generators have gotten better since 1979, don't you think? Wonder what mileage I could get out of that rig? I've also seen pics of an Aussie with an electric car and a Honda Generator in a light, aero trailer for road trips. Or you can get even crazier... http://evmaine.org/html/ev_trailers.html http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm | ||
| Sifo |
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| Sifo |
What does the government do when their new flagship green car built with government subsidies and bail outs fails to sell? Simple. More government subsidies!  http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/13/obama-hikes-subs idy-to-wealthy-electric-car-buyers/
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| Court |
You can't make this shit up . . . . Be mindful that a significant portion of the Volts are being purchased, as company cars, by . . . . . (DRUM ROLL) General Electric. Remember the company that paid ZERO takes on billions of income, that moved a significant number of their jobs overseas . . . WHILE . . ..their CEO was serving as Chairman of the President's Jobs Council. http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18560_162-20117416.htm l http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/ge-ceo -jeffrey-immelt-the-head-of-obamas-jobs-council-is -moving-jobs-and-economic-infrastructure-to-china- at-a-blistering-pace Too funny And the collective masses continue to pay for this like idiot.s | ||
| Prior |
I had a meeting with a government employee scheduled for last week and he called last minute to say he was having battery problems with his gov't car- to which I respond, "It is a Chevy Volt?" Probably not the best comment I ever made, but certainly made me laugh after I blurted it out. | ||
| Sifo |
This is slightly off topic as it deals with the Tesla, but I do wonder how many electric vehicles may have similar problems. The short of it is that when a Tesla has it's battery depleted it becomes what they are calling a "brick". $40K to get if fixed up again. When it bricks you can't even push it to a safe location. http://jalopnik.com/5887265/tesla-motors-devastati ng-design-problem To tie it into the Volt discussion, I do wonder about the idea that after an accident the battery is supposed to be discharged to prevent a fire. Will this become the standard procedure for EVs and hybrids? Will they brick a car just because it's been in a fender bender? It seems that Tesla isn't being terribly forthcoming on these issues. I doubt other manufactures will be any better if they are subject to similar issues. At this point I have far more questions than answers. Some folks are finding that the answers are extremely expensive. At least with my gas engine if I run out of gas it doesn't take $40K to get back on the road again, even with some of the potential things that I've heard of that can happen when you run it dry, but I have never actually know anyone to experience. | ||
| Aesquire |
It's been bad juju for years to run a diesel dry. You an even wreck the high pressure pump. I came closer than I ever want last weekend, when the station I was going to fill up at was out of diesel, and the next one down the road was closed.... So I'll be more careful in the future. I'll also be careful not to buy a car with this gen of batteries. It's worth noting that the iron/acid edison cells used in the 1908 cars do not have this problem, and are, in fact, user serviceable. I suspect nothing whatsoever is user serviceable on a Tesla. | ||
| Sifo |
I've seen numerous cases of our diesel buses being run out of fuel. Never heard of it causing any problems... other than the last one about a week ago the driver was about 20 miles away from our base. Even so, I've never heard of a gas or diesel vehicle running out of gas and causing damage when parked and turned off. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I dont see electric motorcycles becoming mainstream anytime soon until the range is extended, charging becomes much quicker and the price drops. The average Joe just doesn't give two shits about it's environmental friendliness. There are already scooters and mopeds readily available for those looking for affordable and care-free transportation. Motorcycles are overwhelmingly pleasure vehicles. Only a small minority use them for actual transportation. Weren't Segways touted as game changers? |
