| Author | Message | ||
     Jerry_haughton |
Hollow points tend to clog on heavy clothes... My favorite carry round, until recently, was the Winchester PDX1 JHP in .380 and 9mm, for no reason other than simply gut feel. Then I started watching tnoutdoors9's bullet dynamic vids on YouTube, and the PDX1's just don't want to expand after first going through four layers of denim (part of the IWBA standard testing protocol). The Speer Gold-Dot JHP and Federal HST JHP rounds DO expand after penetrating the denim, though, as shown by the two YouTube vids I posted earlier in this thread (http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=4062&post=2181798#POST2181798). They might carry some of the denim into the testing media with them, but they still fully expand in the process. I like the fact that 9mm gives me 17+1 highly-effective rounds in a "manageable" size pistol, plus it's cheaper to practice at the range with than a .40 or .45. The "M&P" in the model name of my 9 stands for "Military & Police." I kinda figure if it's good enough for them... FB | ||
| Thesmaz |
I recently picked up a KelTec PF9 which is the gun that Ruger copied to make the LC9. I had been looking at the LC9 for a carry weapon until I came across the KelTec. It's the same size, same number of rounds but at least $100 less than the Ruger. I'm going to try to get to the range today to run some rounds through it and I've got my CCW class lined up for Saturday. Not planning on carrying all of the time but I want to be able to have a piece on me from time-to-time. I'll report back after I get some rounds through it. | ||
| Aesquire |
I'm not going to argue for any one caliber. A .17 will do the job on tuesday, while a .60 fails on thursday. Life's funny that way. Studies from police shootings say the "best stopper" is either a... .45, .40, or .357 magnum. Probably. With some loads. Not others. ( I guess that there are few .50BMG shootings on record.  ) "real world" testing shows a lot, and few do it as understandable as these guys. http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm The original tests on indoor wall penetration. These guys set out to both settle the argument and learn the truth. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
I'm not arguing, just learning.  | ||
| Road_thing |
Thanks, Jerry! I won't try to convince anybody that my choice is the best choice, it's based on my personal preference, plus the fact that I own more than one .38/.357 revolver and the gear to reload their ammo. As far as capacity goes, sure, more is probably better but so far in my 60+ years on the planet I have yet to run out of ammo in a firefight. In fact, I have yet to even participate in a firefight, and I hope to keep it that way! rt | ||
| Court |
I've been shot 3 times . . . . I'm above quota. | ||
| Sifo |
I've been shot 3 times . . . . I'm above quota. Which caliber did you prefer? | ||
| Macbuell |
I read that there really isn't much difference between the 9mm and the .40. The .40 is a larger round but the 9mm has higher muzzle velocity so in the end they are about the same since force equals mass times acceleration. At least that is what the article I read indicated. I chose the 9mm becuase of a couple of reasons ... 1) I wanted my wife to be comfortable shooting it in a pinch and the .40 has too much recoil for her. 2) I also wanted the cheaper ammo for more practice rounds down range for the same $$. In the end, it's more about where you put the shot than what you are shooting. | ||
| Sifo |
Of the .45, .40, 9mm choices, the .40 would be my last choice. I just find the recoil on the .40 to be the least manageable. I know it's supposed to be a compromise round between .45 and 9mm in it's effect, but looking at the info being brought into this discussion it's not like there's a night/day difference there. Again, as long as you can shoot it well it will work well for you. | ||
| Aesquire |
I got interested in clothing effects when the local gansta wannabes were wearing puffy quilted jackets, year round. ( as were the real bad guys ) The local police were telling tales of clogged hollow points and ineffective stopping. Hollow points work when fluid builds up in the hollow and forces it open, increasing diameter. Plug the hollow with wood, drywall or cloth, it doesn't work as advertised. The Speer Gold Dots do. ( haven't tried the HST's ) In the short barrel version of the Gold Dot the fast burning powder greatly reduces flash. A classic full bore .357 125 grain ( meant for a 6ish inch barrel ) out of a snubby lights up the whole street. The Federal EFMJ caught my attention when it did so well on auto glass and metal, also it is the round of choice for countries that rank hollow points with WW1 "dum-dum" bullets as not sporting for civilians to be allowed to have. ( be interesting if there was a study on over-penetrate issues in those countries ) In America, you are responsible for every round you send down range. Since some rounds will zip through multiple walls, ( and most effective ones will ) accidentally killing some kid sleeping in a house a block away is all on you. ( also true with buckshot and heavy plasma cannons. ) Worse, You will get sued for every round the bad guy sends downrange too, since some lawyer will insist that you objecting to your own murder, or some little girls rape is the cause for the actual bad guy to fire wildly into the surrounding neighborhood. So aim carefully, be responsible, and good luck. | ||
| Blake |
Thanks Tom (Sifo)! The caffeine rush is amazing when fresh hot coffee penetrates my nasal membranes. "Which caliber did you prefer?" You're killin' me!  Can't wait to read Court's response. | ||
| D_adams |
I don't know which .40 you guys are shooting, but the recoil on the XDm is pretty minimal feeling to me. Maybe 1.5-2" of muzzle flip if I limp wrist it? Even my 17 yr old twins (both weigh in at about 110-115 lbs) had NO trouble shooting it. Neither one had ever shot a handgun prior to this one. They actually liked it and want to go out again. Just for reference. | ||
| Kenm123t |
I know whatyou mean Court still have some bullet jacket fragments in my arms | ||
| Sifo |
I don't know which .40 you guys are shooting I have an XDm 9mm and have friends with .40 XD and .45 XDM. Very fair comparison. I've shot them back to back. The .40 is far from the most difficult thing to master, just more difficult than a 9mm or .45. | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
You all need to try a Beretta Px4 in .40 I think you will be at least somewhat surprised and how well it smooths out the snap in the felt recoil. | ||
| Aesquire |
How you hold, how the gun fits you, the first time, determines your recoil resistance to a great degree. For that gun. After that it's mostly a Psych. No less real. And sometimes, as with carpal tunnel etc. even a 9mm can be too tough. I've seen the rifle/shotgun held off the shoulder for that first try, and a person that you Know can easily handle the force gets slapped harder than normal, and the brain just doesn't like it. Even a .223 can spook a person off wanting to try it again. Same thing happens with hand guns, and the twisting recoil of a .45 1911, ( for example ) with rotation in multiple axis, often catches an inexperienced shooter off guard. It's not too hard, it just not normal. begin rant. That's the reason I detest the idiot practice of handing a big heavy kicking gun to a slight person, or a girl just to get a laugh at the wince. Not funny. You may have just turned someone off forever to a sport/art they might have a talent and love for. I often teach a martial art to college girls and boys. ( SCA heavy ) teaching shooting is a privilege, ( which many of the same kids show interest in ) and certainly one of the best teaching aids is a .50 flint lock, but shooting that is the reward for learning the basic safety rules and trying a .22 or 20ga. not a punishment of smoke and flame. They are eager to take the explosion and pyrotechnics on first hand, for bragging rights if little else, but they are already conditioned at that point to not be startled at the loud noise and experienced some kick so they understand how to hold. ( tight, firm, and on muscle. ) End rant. | ||
| Billyo |
Thesmaz- I have a Kel-tec P11 and really like it. Go to their forum and see what info is available. My P11 wanted to jam the first time I took it to the range and I was really unhappy with it. After I went on the forum I found that other owners had taken it apart and done some polishing to fine tune it a little so I did the same and have been really happy with the results. Kel-tec guns aren't bad guns but they are a little unrefined and with a little elbow grease are great little carry pieces (I also got the 12 round mag and mag extender) My 1911 is the most comfortable for me to fire but my S&W M&P .40 runs a close second and is a bit smaller and easier to conceal. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
The original tests on indoor wall penetration. These guys set out to both settle the argument and learn the truth. So far what I've learned from the Box o' Oh, they've also confirmed, several times, that it's fun to shoot stuff. Who knew?!?  | ||
| D_adams |
Maybe I missed it, but did they try shooting through the drywall INTO some ballistic gel? I got the impression that hollow point bullets needed something softer for expansion. Quite possibly mis-information on my part, I really don't know since I haven't done any real testing myself. | ||
| Ulyranger |
I have had a Kel-tec P11 for about 14 years and have been very pleased with it. Certainly not the most refined sub on market but for me it has performed flawlessly and consider it money well spent. At the time there was limited competition in this arena (I was looking at a Kahr, PPK & look-a-likes and I believe some CZ subcompact). The Kahr was the only 9mm and over twice the price. The only jam issues I've had were related to one very specific ammo and after market extended magazines (S&W 5900 series 15rds). I fixed the magazines with a little file work. The only other mods I've made were to replace the OEM NY hammer spring with their factory replacement "lighter" spring. I think it's rated at 1.5# less but the trigger pull was smoothed out nicely. I also put a finger rest floor plate on the ten rds mag and a Uncle Mikes slip on grip (like Hogue). Out to about 15yds I have supreme confidence in my little, cheap sub-9 to get the job done. Of course anything farther out than that is both outside the statistics for deadly encounters and likely enough time/space to seek better cover & defense hopefully.... Thesmaz, good luck with your new purchase. | ||
| Sifo |
You all need to try a Beretta Px4 in .40 I think you will be at least somewhat surprised and how well it smooths out the snap in the felt recoil. Not wanting to get into a discussion of guys measuring their... guns, but if I like a .40 less than a .45 or 9mm on one platform, I'm likely to like the .40 less than a .45 or 9mm on another platform. Add to that there are just things about the Px4 that would make me not want that model. Reasonable minds will fairly disagree on that point as what works great for me may not work for you at all. Maybe I missed it, but did they try shooting through the drywall INTO some ballistic gel? I got the impression that hollow point bullets needed something softer for expansion. They tend to go cheap and use milk jugs with water instead of ballistic gel. IIRC the claim each jug of water is about equal to about 6 inches of gel. I'm not sure if they ever got into the expansion issues after going through drywall or not. That is very specific to the bullet being tested though (can even vary significantly from gun to gun due to variations such as barrel length) so it might be worthwhile testing bullets that you are planing to load for defense yourself. What have we learned? It's fun to shoot stuff! It's even more fun to shoot stuff yourself rather than just read about other folks shooting stuff. BTW, from what I can tell water jugs do make a reasonable medium for examining bullet expansion as well as comparing penetration between different rounds. The penetration calibration is different than gel though. Gel is expensive! | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Maybe I missed it, but did they try shooting through the drywall INTO some ballistic gel? Dean, I haven't got very far on their site; it's a minefield of annoying advertising. From what I've read they've had problems with JHP expanding after going through four sheets of drywall due to the drywall material clogging the hollow point. Fair enough, but if I've got to launch rounds to save my life, I assume I'll actually be looking at the BG, in which case I'm more concerned with the round penetrating his clothing and then doing, um, some internal damage. Still, the fellers look like they're havin' a ball, and I imagine the omnipresent Chevrolet Silverado ads bring them some pretty nice mailbox money. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
BTW, from what I can tell water jugs do make a reasonable medium for examining bullet expansion as well as comparing penetration between different rounds. The penetration calibration is different than gel though. Gel is expensive! I'm in danger of sounding like a salesman for this guy, but he uses calibrated SIM-TEST, and then goes so far as to dissect the bullet tract from the media and show the damage it did on the way in, including measurements: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=4062&post=2181798#POST2181798 Plus, near as I can tell he's doing all of this on his own nickel. It's all good; I'm here to learn. | ||
| Sifo |
FB that guy's videos are great. I watched a bunch of them the other day. He does do a lot on his own nickel. He did mention in one that it was ammo donated by a viewer though. Want to see how your ammo choice stacks up? Send him some ammo. Hopefully he has a gun to shoot it. | ||
| Ridegreen2oo |
My duty weapon is the H&K P2000 .40 cal. Carry it on and off duty. Quality pistol, quality company. Ambidextrous magazine release, dual slide releases, and it comes with three different sized grip backing plates to adjust to different sized shooters.  I grew up a rifle shooter, not tons of pistol experience. The pistol I did learn on though was my fathers 9mm. While the .40 does kick noticeably more, it's nothing I would ever classify as extreme or too much. Just enough to let you know what you are shooting. | ||
| Sifo |
Perhaps I need to clarify my point on the .40 cal round. It's simply a comparison of the .40 to the .45 and 9mm. I'm not saying the recoil is extreme or unmanageable. There are far worse choices available. What I am saying is that if I felt I needed something more effective than a 9mm I would go with a .45 and still have recoil that isn't as harsh as a .40. I just see it as a compromise between the .45 and 9mm that in someways is worse than either. | ||
| Buellhusker |
Does anybody here shoot a 10mm? | ||
| Reepicheep |
A buddy has a 10mm. I tried it, and it actually didn't bother me much. Truth be told, if you blindfolded me and handed me a lightweight gun and had me shoot it, I probably couldn't tell you the difference between 10mm, .40S&W, .357 sig, 7.62x25, or even 9mm +P. I've shot all of them, and they feel about the same. Very usable and mildly annoying. The .45ACP is very usable and not at all annoying (IMHO). I ***hate*** shooting .44 magnum, or .50 S&W. I think the big deal with .40 and 10mm is the cost of ammo (relative to .38, .45, or 9mm). | ||
| Cowboy |
I dont pay much attention to any kind of amo. It just seams to me that a subject with a round from a 40 in him realy stops thinking about my money or sex with my wife he just leaves or dies eather way my family is safe. | ||
| M1combat |
"( I guess that there are few .50BMG shootings on record. )" Just for the record... As I understand the .50 BMG has never been used in a violent crime in the US. |
