| Author | Message | ||
     Randytelecaster |
I know this is highly unlikely but let's say Harley-Davidson will never be a sportbike manufacturer again. But, they wouldn't mind having a "no strings attached" arrangement where they could "badge engineer" an already built product an maybe do a limited run of a, say, Harley - Davidson RR - 1190 street bike. Keith Wadell comes from Ford . Car manufacturer's do this all the time. Harley did this with Aermacchi before they bought them . It could get Erik some capital and give Harley - Davidson a easy way to sell a bike that is not quirky and people are standing in line to buy now as an EBR 1190 R . Please respond with all comments . | ||
| Jdugger |
HD hates sportbikes. They wish they didn't exist, and most there they think they shouldn't. They make more money selling T-Shirts and do-rags. Why would they want a performance motorcycle in their line up making the rest of the lot look bad? | ||
| Sportster_mann |
Personally, I can't see it ever happening. HD have already proven their loathing towards sports bikes. And I can't see anybody buying a sports bike from harley when you consider what happened last time ... | ||
| Syonyk |
From a company run by people who seriously don't understand why anyone would want to ride a sportbike, and who had a real issue funding "Erik's Racing Hobby"? I'd say there's a better chance of them moving to all water cooled inline 4s. Besides, it would screw up their whole "We'll make your Harley fast!" gravy train. Buy a bike, bolt in $10k of Screaming Eagle parts, and look! It's a fast Harley! And... if you bolt on enough parts, you can get on the 100hp wall! That's, like, massively powerful for a motorcycle, right??? If I have one of those, it must mean I'm a real man, right? Throw a 180hp, 400lb motorcycle in the mix, and it will be incredibly obvious just how slow a modern Harley really is. Plus, where will you put chrome on it? If you can't personalize it with chrome (or blacked out parts, to "make your bike as dark as your dreams"), what's the point? The 100hp wall up in Santa Fe is funny. It's a 7000ft elevation dealership, and I believe the numbers are raw, not SAE corrected. There are a few Harleys on it with numbers like 100.2hp, 101.4hp, etc. And then there's an 1125 on there with a race ECU, putting down 115-120. And the 1125 is *not* a particularly powerful sportbike in terms of peak horsepower numbers. It just has that wonderfully flat power curve...  | ||
| Duphuckincati |
What have you been smoking??!! | ||
| Mickeyq |
Recent history with HD and sportbikes: 1)Shut down Buell by spending more than ever invested in it. 2)Give MV Agusta back to the Castiglionis including millions to help them build a new factory. HD did roadrace at one time: Walter Villa, Cal Rayborn and many others...but that seems like centuries ago. | ||
| Stirz007 |
When H-D 'badged' other mfgr's bikes, I'm pretty sure it was because H-D wanted to test the dirt bike/scooter markets and didn't want to spend R&D to develop a product line... H-D knows what it's bread and butter is and it isn't sports/dirt bikes or anything other than current product line. I defer to our dealership friends on B-W, but last time I talked to my buds at the H-D store, they make virtually nothing on bikes at the dealership. As previously mentioned, the lion's share of H-D profit has been in clothing and accessories, branding licenses, etc., and not in bikes themselves. The bike sells the image. The image sells the stuff. "Real bikers" have to look the part..... So - no, I don't think H-D would 'brand' any EBR products. A better question might be: Would EB get back in bed with H-D? Just my opinion - that and a buck or two will buy you a cup of coffee (and not busting anyones stones, but this thread isn't really 1125-related, so should probably go to the quick board - just sayin') (Message edited by Stirz007 on January 30, 2012) | ||
| Duphuckincati |
I've heard the idea that the HD-MV deal was just so HD could have some sort of economic/tax legal base in Europe. | ||
| Timebandit |
The tax angle is interesting. H-D has manufacturing in India. | ||
| Rex |
I doubt if they would ever do it, unless new management and willy leaves harley davidson. too engrained in cruisers. UNLESS, Victory gets involved, and starts making unbelievable bikes, and starts taking away the HD business. | ||
| Dannybuell |
@Rex ~ Bulls Eye | ||
| Buellmojo |
Money is coming from somewhere, not saying it is Harley Davidson, but I will not be surprised at all, if some form of HD money involvement is uncovered. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I sure wish I knew what Court posted , then cancelled... | ||
| Reepicheep |
I expect Harley will buy and rebadge low end chinese or Indian bikes, as they can do so more cheaply than building their own low end cheap bikes. Think of it as a Chinese bike wearing a Harley shirt. They have made a fortune selling jackets with a Harley logo, why not sell Indian bikes with a Harley logo? The bikes are cheap and fun, and getting better and better in quality every day. The first problem is the ability of Harley Executives to accept and use something they don't appreciate and understand, but others people do. The second is a culture of Harley elitism... I don't know if that was customers driving the company, or the company driving the customers, but there are some pretty deep pockets of it lingering. Harley can't possibly fail an effort like this *four* times in a row, can they?  (Aramachi, Buell, MV Agusta, ...Hyosung?) | ||
| Randytelecaster |
I appreciate all of the input. Again, as I originally posted, it would be unlikely, but sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do to still be in the game. The demographics are changing, like it or not, and harley - Davidson may have to play in some other fields. Remember, it would be a LOW RISK way to compete again. Further more, if they had let Erik build a full fledged good looking bike he does now I believe they easily would have sold more. Push rod engines just can't go on forever as more efficient internal combustion engines will have to compete with electrics and hybrids . Erik is building the bike now that he and the public wanted 25 years ago. Harley - Davidson never let him do that. I'm not so sure that's not what is going on with the India venture, ATK / Hyosung at select dealers, etc . | ||
| Syonyk |
The demographics are changing, like it or not, and harley - Davidson may have to play in some other fields. Remember, it would be a LOW RISK way to compete again. What company are you talking about again? This is a company who, faced with dropping youth sales, decided to "focus on their core business" - selling t-shirts to people who purchased chromed out cruisers, or who want to purchase a chromed out cruiser, or who know someone who wants to purchase a chromed out cruiser. The only radical thing they've done recently is the "blacked out" look. And, to be fair, that seems to be working decently - or at least better than the chrome thing for younger riders. I don't expect to ever see a proper sportbike out of Harley. I'm somewhat surprised the XR1200 even is sold - it's surprisingly sporty for them. And "Compete"? Nah. It's cheaper to buy off a few politicians & get import tariffs raised on foreign-made motorcycles. Competing is so HARD. You go and build something good, and 5 years later everyone else has gone and beaten it, and you have to spend more money and totally redesign something that was excellent! ... or 50 years later, whatever. | ||
| Court |
>>>I sure wish I knew what Court posted , then cancelled... They were nothing but facts, interspersed with some technical documents. Facts would have derailed the entire conversation. I decided, like others, to withdraw, derive the entertainment value and let folks believe the fairy tales. Surprise anyone else that so much is taking place under the eyes of so many . . . and . . going completely unnoticed. Now . . where the heck did I put that cheese? | ||
| Rogue_biker |
Court, based on H-D's history, what do you expect? I'm sure you have met many, many H-D owners. A great majority of them hate sportbikes and don't even know what other motorcycles are around them to care. THAT is the H-D mentality and it goes down into the core of their corporation and customers. To H-D, sportbikes are the "Anti-Harley". So it doesn't matter what some inside H-D are thinking or what they believe. History says it all. By shutting down the only sportbike maker in America, run by a guy that never says no to failure (how American can you get), H-D created thousands of H-D hating motorcyclists. I for one will NEVER EVER buy a H-D. I hate their mentality and the attitude of many of their owners. Never have I ever felt more unwelcome than inside a H-D dealership. There was only one exception and that was San Diego H-D/Buell. (Message edited by rogue_biker on January 31, 2012) | ||
| Two_seasons |
Can't really fault the HD dealers. They had Buells thrown at them and, like most people/dealers do, chose to ignore the product. If independent dealers would have been given the opportunity to sell Buell, there may have been more marketability of the brand. I'm thankful that I own two tubers and the 1125r. They are the best bikes I'm ever ridden. Erik and the elves are on the right track. Pretty cool that it is happening less than 30 minutes from me. I'm still trying to figure a way to put the 1190RS in there somewhere. I wonder if my 401K would consider that a "hardship"?  | ||
| Rex |
It is interesting to sit and watch what happens. Who knows who is funneling money here and there for research, or support. We need a main stream USA bike, with a sporting nature. Surprising how many other dealers, honda, kawasaki, etc. are aware of what EBR is doing. Some even talk about the possibility of being a dealer, but still too expensive, and too few of sales is what they are saying. They like the USA bike and what Erik is doing though. Zero Motorcycles, with Abe, are doing some really cool things. Brammo is cool to watch. Victory is getting really engrained in the skull and bones type of the bikes now. More cruisers, with changes of bars, colors, wheels, seem to be their thrust. They may be past coming out with something other than a cruiser now, themselves, unless it has a different name. Indian, owned by Victory. Still looks the same. Fewer dealers, same heavy expensive bike. HD? It is not even interesting to walk into their stores anymore. Same old shirts, Same bikes, all flat black, high bars, or baggers. No Go Pro Cameras, no cool colors, leathers, helmets, etc. Heavy, Heavy bikes. Bigger than ever it seems. More expensive than ever. Triumph. Successful KTM. Successful BMW. Successful Ducati. Successful. Moto Guzzi looks good. Interesting to watch what is happening. Personally, my next bike is going to be a Royal Enfield Classic 500 single. They are also selling as many bikes as they can make, adding new models, and talks of a new twin coming out. Exciting to see their rides and their Indian riders do unbelievable things with the bikes, riding over rough terrain and going up to 14,000 feet and beyond. Cool, Classic bikes. Small, lightweight, classic in looks, fuel injection, hydraulic valves, electronic ignition, unit construction engine, great mileage, easy to work on. And they have a knock out looking cafe racer in the works. | ||
| Rogue_biker |
H-D = had to shut down part of their production line due to slow down in demand. Not so successful. Gee I wonder why? Hmmm....because all the people who mortgaged their homes to buy $30k custom bikes and bought expensive Harley's are bankrupt and/or gone off the market. Today's most successful models are the inexpensive street fighters and adventure tourers displacing less than 1,000cc's. Guess who's buying those? Not the Harley faithful. Keith Wandel should have stayed at Johnson Controls. I work in the Finance world of a US manufacturer and I can tell you all, during hard times the last thing you want to do is to "contract" your business. That's what you do as a defensive measure. Instead, you were supposed to save your money and when the bad times come, invest in your business and build it up. That's exactly what BMW, Ducati, and Triumph did--release new models, more affordable models, that bring customers into showrooms. You don't keep selling the same crap in different colors for the same prices. | ||
| Davegess |
H-D produced small bikes; I think all of them may have come out of the Italian factory that they sold to the Castiglionis (sp?). I think they have a pretty decent handle on the market at this point and I would not bet against them being very successful with the Indian venture, | ||
| Timebandit |
...unless new management and willy leaves harley davidson. Willie G is dead weight. His designs are functionally stupid and fugly. He is an anchor around the company's neck. | ||
| Court |
This is so cool. We are on the cusp of some of the most interesting times in motorcycles history. It's difficult to conduct a very objective discussion of Harley-Davidson. I try to keep my finger on the pulse by staying in touch through the alumni group, with friends who are still there and watching various financial indices. I wish them no ill, but they, unfortunately, appear to have evolved to a soul less company. My perspective is admittedly poor. | ||
| Froggy |
Moved to Quickboard and threadjack removed | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
I would love to see team Erik build a small cc bike that could be used for rider training.... I know there are a bunch of blasts that will need to be replace soon if not SOONER | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Harley commission Erik to build a bike? Stranger things have happened, but LMAO for now. | ||
| Sifo |
EBR getting back in bed with HD would possibly be the worst thing that could happen. I'm much more interested in what EBR can accomplish without HD's meddling. I still think that despite the initial shock of it, the dumping of Buell is the best thing that could have happened for Erik. Even though EBR isn't producing a bike that fits my taste, I'm watching and anticipating what they will do next. | ||
| Ourdee |
Court, "Who moved my cheese?" Seen it? | ||
| Jaimec |
To quote a famous Scotsman (or at least a Scot character portrayed by a Canadian): "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME." I don't think Erik would go back to HD at gunpoint at this point in his career. |
