| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
Blake, Here are just a couple of examples of 'offset' or single sided rear shocks that predate the Ducati Panigale and EBR1190 by some time    In actual fact, when you look at the simple operation and lack of linkages in the EBR system the rear shock/swingarm has more similarities to this bike than to the Panigale (which shouldn't be taken as criticism, it is a good system after all).  (Message edited by trojan on November 11, 2011) | ||
| Bads1 |
Pegram's bike was outed here by an impeccably reliable "Anonymous" poster. How you figure he was all of a sudden running at the front? So the AMA officials just let happen while tearing Mlidans bike to shreds to show he was cheating??? And as far as Peagrams BMW?? Umm its running a stock system. Peagrams is on a very bare bones budget. Hes said that for crying out loud on his show Superbike Family.As far as how traction control works?? I know exactly where it works I don't need to be told I don't think.lol Hayes is a incredible rider..... but his tires were going away race after race as Blake Young would real him in. Now if Hayes could get used to Running it I'd think Blake young would not of come as close to him in the points battle. Now lets see if his team mate Josh Herrin uses it?? | ||
| Blake |
>>> Blake, your rose tinted specs are getting fogged I think. Fact is, you don't know what led Ducati to consider an offset rear shock. As usual, you're ever the skeptic concerning Buell leading tech development. I go by logic. Logic says that it is awfully coincidental that Buell runs an offset rear shock, wins various championships, and then we see Ducati introduce a new model with an offset rear shock. It's quite an incredible coincidence. Why would Ducati have waited until now to apply that innovation? Answer: It was not race proven and it presented serious issues if not done properly, lots of unknowns. I don't know for fact the Buell shock mounting inspired Ducati or not either, but coincidence is HIGHLY unlikely from my view. Really doesn't matter one way or the other. What is cool is to see the latest greatest repli-racer superbike from Ducati sharing innovations and technology that was already being used by Erik and friends. American motorcycles are leading the way in some respects. Stay tuned for more. >>> There have been plenty of bikes with offset rear shocks before the EBR1190 appeared, so I really don't think that Ducati copied it or were anything more than vaguely aware of its existence when developing the Panigale. Which of them had won championships in professional racing? The 1125 has an offset rear shock too Matt. You really had to reach to find some bikes with offset rear shocks, none of which resemble the way Buell and then Ducati located them. Aside from the BMW, what are they? I can't even see the shock on the Beemer. The last bike you show appears to have two shocks, one on either side. Is that Norton a production machine? | ||
| Court |
>>>>American motorcycles are leading the way in some respects. That's what I think is very cool. It's great to see the "Made in America" attitude and craftsmanship. Some folks worked very hard to get that right. Let the naysayers decide to "Occupy Court's Opinion" . . I am thrilled to see Ducati, regardless of motivation, introducing such a gorgeous bike. It's not only art, from a purely aesthetic view, but it looks damned appealing. I've long been a Ducati fan, as some of the old-timers here know (some recall the story of me riding the Buell, in a snow storm wearing a tuxedo, when I gave the talk on Ducati History at the grand opening of the Ducati Flagship store) and share my thinking that this rising tide is great timing for a lot of folks, firms and deals. I predict we will see more exciting things. | ||
| Hootowl |
retracted.... | ||
| Blake |
Dana, >>> So the AMA officials just let happen while tearing Mlidans bike to shreds to show he was cheating??? "tearing Mladin's bike to shreds" It was a routine inspection. Your wild exaggeration is bizarre. Mladin's bike was inspected and found in violation back in 2008, years ago, not "while" Pegram was winning on the Ducati WSB spec machine in 2010. I just know what I was told, and I absolutely trust the integrity and honest of who told me. I do not know if some subsequent modification was done by Pegram to the bike or not, just that what he received was a WSB spec 1098R racing machine, used previously in WSB racing by one of the factory riders. I can't say why it didn't get caught in AMA tech. The point is, it wasn't a bike that Pegram took off the showroom floor and developed. It was already a fully developed racing machine, probably complete with traction control. >>> And as far as Peagrams BMW?? Umm its running a stock system. Peagrams is on a very bare bones budget. Hes said that for crying out loud on his show Superbike Family. I don't think I mentioned anything about Pegram's BMW. So... okay. Not a factory team. His season was not so successful, which indicates what? >>> As far as how traction control works?? I know exactly where it works I don't need to be told I don't think. lol My sense from your previous post was that you thought the factories were running stock traction control. None are. I think it went along with the point that EBR ought to implement traction control. The point to informing that the factories don't run OEM traction control on their racing machines was meant to show that EBR implementing an OEM system would be of little to no benefit on the track. Some people are being fooled into thinking that their OEM TC is the same as what the factory racers are using. Sly marketing, but not honest. >>> Hayes is a incredible rider..... but his tires were going away race after race as Blake Young would real him in. Now if Hayes could get used to Running it I'd think Blake young would not of come as close to him in the points battle. Now lets see if his team mate Josh Herrin uses it?? Maybe so. I didn't pay that close attention. | ||
| Stirz007 |
"Fact is, you don't know what led Ducati to consider an offset rear shock." >>That sidemount shock? It’s there to facilitate that short wheelbase and to help with packaging of the exhaust, but a side benefit is easy access to its linkage that’s adjustable from progressive (road, passenger) to straight rate (track). (From the OP link) (Message edited by Stirz007 on November 11, 2011) | ||
| Phelan |
The last bike posted above has twin shocks, not that it matters. I'm not going to imply that Ducati is copying Buell, but they probably were reminded of the tech by seeing it. At least since 2007, the Ducati Sport Classic 1000 has an offset rear shock.  | ||
| Bads1 |
Mladin's bike was inspected and found in violation back in 2008, years ago, not "while" Pegram was winning on the Ducati WSB spec machine in 2010. Exactly Blake...lol in which who took over AMA??? And enforced heavier rules??? And don't they inspect any bike that wins or is on the podium.....I think they do??? lol And if the factory teams do indeed you very expensive traction control units then the Yosh team is really the only one that does. Yamaha rider Hayes runs without. So what factory teams are left?? | ||
| Slaughter |
I sez them Ducks is copying the Ninja 650R from back in 2006. http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2006models/2 006models-Kawasaki-Ninja650R.htm This stuff is makin my pointy head hurt. | ||
| Svh |
So Slaughter, Kawasaki saw into the future to copy the 2008 1125R? Interesting.... | ||
| Fast1075 |
I had a huge bowl of chicken gumbo for lunch. It was full of OKRA!!!  | ||
| Blake |
Dana, There was KTM for one. Then you have all the teams in WSBK. | ||
| Blake |
Another article on the bike... http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/619/11484/Motorcycle -Article/2012-Ducati-1199-Panigale-First-Look.aspx | ||
| Bads1 |
We're not talking WSB TALKIN AMA here. Jordans team doesn't run anything extravagant either.  | ||
| F22raptor |
So..I ride a Ducati and a Buell.I appreciate both of them for the innovation and the intangible rider experience.What is interesting though is that every time I ride one, I wish i was on the other. If you could combine the best parts off the two, you would have something! I have left them together alone in the warm,carpeted, garage hoping for off-spring, no luck yet.Kinda like trying to breed Pandas I guess! Maybe if I played some videos of naked bikes riding together... | ||
| Hootowl |
Both of your bikes are girls. While interesting to watch, any activity they might engage in would be fruitless. | ||
| Blake |
>>> talking AMA here Correction. You were talking AMA. I was talking about all the pro Superbike race teams. BSB teams were using TC too. | ||
| Tankhead |
Ah the Kawasaki 650 ninja thats what I meant. I know it was one of the ninja models. | ||
| Trojan |
I go by logic. Logic says that it is awfully coincidental that Buell runs an offset rear shock, wins various championships, and then we see Ducati introduce a new model with an offset rear shock. Now who is exagerating? 'wins various championships?' I can think of only one. Do you really think that Ducati designers even watched any of the AMA race season when they had won multiple world chamionships, currently had WSB and MotoGP to deal with in addition to the design of a complete new bike? An offset rear shock really isn't a huge innovation on its own, and is primarily a packaging problem rather than a handling one. The reason for running an offset or single sided rear shock is usually because you simply can't fit a conventional monoshock into the space available on thebike. This was true of the 1125 and was certainly true on the Panigale. Other than the fact that the shocks are mounted to one side there is absolutley no connection between the 1190 and Panigale rear shock system. Other than having the shock set of to one side, the EBR 1190 uses a standard 'non linkage' monoshock similar to the 1948 Vincent I pictured or the original Yamaha monoshock system introduced for the late 1970's. The Panigale uses a new linkage system that allows the user to alter the way the shock works completely, from flat rate to rising rate, simply by adjusting the linkage. Add that to the fact that the shock is mounted to the engine rather than to a conventional frame, adn you'll see that they are completely different and were certainly not influenced by each other. By the way, the bikes I pictured were only those I found within limited time that had single shocks. There have been plenty of others over the years. The BMW shock is on the other side of the swingarm. The last bike pictured is a 1948 Vincent and just shows that there is very little new thinking in motorcycle design. It does have twin shocks but there were models with single and offset shocks too. I am not being a 'skeptic' on Buell design or achievement, but am being realistic regarding their influence on Ducati design department. | ||
| 1324 |
A cursory review of the pictures we've all seen seems to say it all (what Trojan already said): the rear shock is offset because there simply isn't room to put it anywhere else without making the whole package heavier. By rotating the engine back from the standard Ducati position (thank Harley Davidson?), and using an underslung exhaust (thank Buell), there was no where else to put it without adding unnecessary weight. We can give the nod to Buell for the exhaust, but that is where the obvious stops IMO. | ||
| Smoke4ndmears |
reference to earlier in the thread re: pegrams bike. http://raresportbikesforsale.com/full-on-ama-super bike-anyone-larry-pegrams-2008-ducati-1098r/ watch out for that website. timesink. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Now who is exagerating? 'wins various championships?' I can think of only one. " Maybe the German guys racing them? I dont know if they won a championship or not, but know they did really well. So them and Danny is all I can think of. | ||
| Court |
Do we want to count the various ass kickings that Shawn has dealt out at Willow Springs? You already got the Germans and, if memory serves, Harald could have skipped the last 2 races and still won the series. Danny Eslick's deal was HUGE and certainly made a name for him. There are surely others . . . . what'd we start with . . just one? By the way . . take a close look at what EBR did last year and see if ANY manufacture has ever finished in the top 10 in every race they ran their first season with no DNF. There may be some . . none leap to mind. I'm REALLY proud of what the folks at East Troy are doing. The Ducati is a gorgeous bike and may be as good as an EBR 1190RS . . but, like Buell was told, they'll have to prove it on the track. | ||
| Notpurples2 |
Trojan makes a good point. Other than making room for other things, is there any actual benefit to having the shock to the side rather than center? Seems like the new frame and engine position and exhaust routing required moving the shock. Not that the new innovation of an offset shock allowed the new frame, engine position, and exhaust routing. | ||
| Bads1 |
Court, Nothing against Shawn hes great but is he racing the factory teams?? And KTM ran just 2 races but they did finish top ten. And I don't think Ducati needs to prove it on track. They know what they are doing and have for many many years. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
While I doubt that I'll ever own an EBR 1190 or a Duc Panigale, I can appreciate that they're both very nice bikes. I have met Erik Buell a couple of times, he's a smart fella & a very nice man to boot. BUT, I'm sorry to have to disillusion some of you, he didn't invent the underslung exhaust, it's been in & out of use by various manufacturers since the 1920s, likewise fuel in the frame. I had a moped in the 70s that had both. So now you can all unbunch your panties & just wait til either both bikes meet on a track somewhere or it comes out on playstation. Some of you come across as nearly hysterical on this thread, chill out, it's only motorcycles, not politics or religion. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
On a more technical note, the insurance on the Duc is going to be astronomical, as with everything being hung on the motor, the slightest prang will write off the whole bike. | ||
| F22raptor |
Try to figure this one out...The cheapest insurance on any bike I ever owned was my 916. Sold it and got a Super-Hawk 996, it cost me $800 a year! Lets just say I got rid of that one soon there-after. It has to do with loss ratios and the fact that the majority of high-end bike riders are alot safer.I pay about $100 for my Monster per year and maybe $150 for the Buell. My DrZ-400SM is under $100!  | ||
| Blake |
No one is saying Erik "invented" the underslung exhaust or the offset rear shock mount. He was the first to implement them on mass produced championship winning sport bikes. |
