| Author | Message | ||
     Phelan |
Excellent point Adam  . And Jake the link is awesome and precisely my point. | ||
| Trojan |
If the bike is worth a shit I'll see it on the grid at Daytona. If it's not there ....... It's all talk That is the most ridiculous statement so far on this thread! Do you really think that Daytona is a high mark on the Ducati factory calendar any longer? I think they have bigger fish to fry these days. Daytona is not the International prestige race it once was and is now pretty much ignored by most manufacturers/factory teams outside the US. Ducati are running a full factory supported team in World Superstock racing next year and looking to return to WSB with a factory efrfort in 2013. Plenty of 'satellite/privateer' teams will be running the 1199 in national Superbike series in 2012 and will win races with it. To say they are 'all talk' is frankly ridiculous, and if EBR (or any other manufacturer fo that matter) manage to achieve a fraction of what Ducati has done in the last 20 years they would be very proud of the achievement. Mabe a US Ducati dealer/importer team may race at Daytona, but the factory won't. | ||
| Crusty |
Do you really think that Daytona is a high mark on the Ducati factory calendar any longer? It is if Ducati wants to sell a lot of bikes in this country. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Crusty, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? | ||
| Trojan |
Crusty, in comparison to WSB, MotoGP and FIM Superstock Daytona is a sideshow for Ducati. They will sell bikes in the US based on their worldwide performance not just because they decide turn up at Daytona. They haven't raced at Daytona or even officially in AMA superbike for a few years but that has not stopped their sales or popularity in the US market. I'm sure there will be a Ducati team in AMA next year but wouldn't expect it to be a factory team in any shape or form. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Trojan - I was going to post similar - their bike sales didnt drop off due to AMA participation. In fact I sure do see a lot of 1098s and 1198s on the road, but dont recall them being on the grid the past few years. and this comment made by Phelan "No doubt it's a beautiful bike; I think it's pretty similar to an 1190 in performance. Of course, what is it they say? "Imitation is the highest form of flattery"." Who are they flattering? EBR? I know you mention it, butI am sure Duc was/is always looking for more power and less weight in their bikes. This 1199 looks great, but like the 1190 from Erik Buell, it wont be in my garage. Thats a lot of scratch to spend on a motorcycle and I have yet to win the lottery. I do hope there are some comparo tests between it and the 1190. Hell, any test with the 1190 would be awesome | ||
| Trojan |
"Imitation is the highest form of flattery Design work started on the Panigale in 2007, so unless they had a spy in the EBR camp I would suggest that they haven't imitated anything or anyone, but have come to their design conclusions completely independently. Take a closer look at the Ducati rear suspension layout and linkage for instance and you'll see that not only have they not imitated anyone else, but they have moved the goal posts completely in terms of peformance suspension design. It is not only adjustable for the usual settings but the linkage can also be adjusted to give either progressive or flat suspension movement depending on use. A very very clever idea and well executed Other than the fact that the shock is offset to the side of the bike rather than centrally (simply because it wouldn't fit in the conventional position) it shares no design cues at all with the EBR 1190 rear shock mechanism. Prices here in the UK for the Ohlins equipped top of the range S version has been set at GBP19750 including taxes (around US$31500) which is still a lot cheaper than the equivalent 1190 unfortunately. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Trojan, I think some are referring to the underslung exhaust which is becoming quite commonplace. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
hmmmmm thats not what Phelan said, he mentioned performance and beauty. True, EB did push the underslung exhaust on the world and it is now catching on, very cool. But outside of that, there is no imitation here. | ||
| Phelan |
Sorry for the lack of clarification- both those statements in that post are separate of each other. They both are beautiful bikes. The imitation I was speaking of was the underslung exhaust. The tail looks strikingly similar to a tail I saw on a custom XB- the by the powder coating guy that put dual ZTLs, Marchesini wheels, single sided swingarm and sprocket mounted rear brake on his XB. Not that it means anything, but I think the tails are very similar. | ||
| Boltrider |
That long huh? I think the B2 prototype was done in half the time. | ||
| Boltrider |
I'm sure it's an awesome bike though. I wouldn't expect anything less from Ducati. | ||
| Chadhargis |
I love Ducati. I had a Monster 900 that I should have never sold. It was a 90's model that didn't have all the electronic mumbo jumbo on it and you could actually work on it. I miss really simple bikes. I sincerely hope EBR brings out an affordable bike that's not 100% sport oriented. A big standard or "Uly" style bike for us 40 and over crowd. | ||
| Blake |
As far as I know, there are four sport bikes in existence that employ an offset rear shock mounting scheme. The 1125R, 1125CR, the EBR 1190RS, and now the Ducati 1199. The Buell 1125R hit the press in 2007. Ducati absolutely has Buell to thank for proving that outside of the box chassis/packaging innovation. To try to deny that is silly. Why so darn difficult to give credit where it is due??? That Ducati has also shed their trademark dual under tail exhaust is quite surprising if not for the clear advantages of the Buell style underslung muffler. It apparently takes a wizard to see that the EBR 1190 secondary muffler is easily removed. To badmouth the EBR bike for that is just plain dumb and reveals what can only be a marked disdain for the brand. Why are you here? The beauty of the EBR 1190 OEM exhaust tract is that it can go from EPA street bike to racer and shed multiple pounds, merely by removing a few fasteners, a bracket, clamp and the secondary muffler. It couldn't be easier. Amazing innovation that benefits the performance enthusiast. | ||
| Hootowl |
I think the primary reason for that secondary muffler is to make it legal in Japan. I'll bet that if not for the requirement of the high rear exhaust exit, EBR could have made it EPA legal without it. | ||
| Blake |
As far as the Duc goes, I still prefer the 996/998 aesthetics much more. The performance promised is incredible. The electro-wizardry is not something that interests me at this point. Dana, the racing teams are not using the OEM traction control; we couldn't afford what they are using, different animal entirely. Also, Josh Hayes reportedly hasn't used it on his R1. No Ducati racing in America recently? Pegram ran the full season just last year on an 1098R. | ||
| Tankhead |
Didn't the 2005 Kawi Ninja 250 have the off set rear spring. I remember thinking that it looked weird. Oh well. Could be wrong. | ||
| Xb984r |
"How cool would it be to see Ducati racing in the AMA and finish in the top 10 in all the races in their first year? Only one manufacturer has done it. It'd sure make a statement about v-twins." Which manufacturer was that Court? | ||
| Guell |
It apparently takes a wizard to see that the EBR 1190 secondary muffler is easily removed. To badmouth the EBR bike for that is just plain dumb and reveals what can only be a marked disdain for the brand. Why are you here? Um because I like buells? Just because i think that secondary muffler is ugly on the 1190rs means i shouldnt be here? Wow, sorry for having an opinion that doesnt jive with everyone elses. Disdain? No, i have a few criticisms of the brand, but no disdain. Sorry, i dont drink the koolaid, and that i can form my own opinions. In what way was i bad mouthing the brand? (Message edited by guell on November 09, 2011) | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
No Ducati racing in America recently? Pegram ran the full season just last year on an 1098R. I think it was said no FACTORY team. (Message edited by ferris_von_bueller on November 09, 2011) | ||
| Svh |
+1 to Guell. I feel the same way about the exhaust. UGLY. Does that mean I don't like the brand or bike? No. I think the rusty muffler under my 2008 XT is ugly and a shame but I still love that bike. I have no disdain for the brand and have questioned recently why I am still coming here. Someone should not be chastised because their opinion is different than yours. I can not fathom how you, Blake, can correlate someone thinking the EPA exhaust on the 1190 is ugly with them having disdain for the brand. Disappointing and as you say in other posts "you can do better" | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
ferris is right, I was referring to factory racing (i thought we all were) as for bikes with offset rear shocks, many more bikes than the four mentioned above have them. Kaw uses them on several bikes I think, I know they have an odd shock setup on the 650R | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I agree the high exhaust looks like azz. I think the video stated three bolts and it's off. Like the servo doohickey, it's EPA nonsense that is easily defeated post sale. How is stating the obvious, that it's an ugly piece of EPA junk, badmouth the brand? | ||
| Phelan |
Off-topic, I think I'm one of the few that LIKES the secondary muffler, not that it matters.My comment was ONLY about the muffler placement and the fact that every company is now doing it after EB has done it for over 25 years is still flattery. Even if they don't think they are copying it, fact is that it is. They do it because the market says that's what they want. The market says they want that because they saw it on EB's bikes and recognize its advantages. | ||
| Blake |
Any jackass who floats the characterization of drinking koolaid concerning one's preference in motorbike is nothing but disdainful. It's insulting and ignorant. Just weak minds trying to feel better about themselves through mean put downs of others. Some folks just never learned good manners. Just my opinion. | ||
| Guell |
I was simply stating that I wouldn't buy a Ebr bike just because its an Ebr bike. Do I hope they come out with more bikes? Yep. I only wish success for them since they are the only American sportbike company that's really making bikes. Calling me a jackass? Seems like a violation of your own terms of service Blake. | ||
| Trojan |
As far as I know, there are four sport bikes in existence that employ an offset rear shock mounting scheme. The 1125R, 1125CR, the EBR 1190RS, and now the Ducati 1199. The Buell 1125R hit the press in 2007. Ducati absolutely has Buell to thank for proving that outside of the box chassis/packaging innovation. To try to deny that is silly. Why so darn difficult to give credit where it is due??? Blake, you need to give your spectacles a clean methinks. The Ducati Panigale has NO conventional chassis so has hardly copied the Buell 1190/1125/XB frame in any description. The fact that the shock is offset is nothing new and certainly wasn't a Buell invention or innovation. It is simply a packaging decision and is employed various manufacturers such as Kawasaki on their ER6 (Ninja 650) models, Yamaha MT03 and other bikes too including Bimota and Harris frame going back to the late 1970's (in fact Vincent used a similar concept back in the 1940's!). Take a good look at the rear suspension linkage arrangement on the Panigale and tell me it has been copied or even influenced from or by anyone else? That Ducati has also shed their trademark dual under tail exhaust is quite surprising if not for the clear advantages of the Buell style underslung muffler. Ducati say that the main reason for ploacing the muffler where it is was to reduce the weight of the seat/subframe assembly substantially. They obviously benefit from the mass centralisation effect too, but that was not their primary reason for moving the pipes. | ||
| Phelan |
Moving th muffler at the bottom to reduce weight of the subframe is absolutely mass centralization, no matter how you spell it, so it is absolutely an EB derivative. You can't cut off at the top, sew it at the bottom, and call it smaller or bigger, it's just redistributed. | ||
| Notpurples2 |
The underslung exhaust is the only thing Buellish I see on the new Duc. But then most of sportbike manufactures are moving that way; KTM, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha (R6), Honda (1000rr). It's not big news. | ||
| Blake |
Guell, Understood. Glad to hear it. The koolaid assertion is deeply offensive to me and others as it refers to a group of people and their little children committing suicide at the behest of a megalomaniacal con man. So if you are not intent on being deeply offensive, you and others ought to avoid throwing that characterization around, and you ought to apologize to everyone here for having done so. I don't know of anyone who would prefer an EBR motorcycle just for the fact that it is an EBR product as you state. Not even Erik himself. You've thus offered a bogus premise to your point, and your point is thus still aimed at badmouthing others to make yourself feel superior. Fail. You prefer the Duc. Fine. It's likely to be a fantastic bike. Go buy one and have peace and good will in your heart towards those who prefer otherwise. Matt, I named the offset location of the shock, not the chassis, nor the shock linkage. Which super bike class production machine introduced that and was successful in professional racing, winning virtually right out of the box? If you don't think that caught the attention of Ducati, you're kidding yourself. The folks there are among the most knowledgeable and savvy repli-racer super bike designers on the planet. They know a good innovation when they see it. Buell did the hard work proving the offset shock mount in professional racing. You really think Ducati failed to notice that? I do think that it works even better with a ssswingarm. I remember when the underslung muffler was scoffed at too. Now folks dismiss that performance innovation since most serious repli-racers have employed it? Incredible. Credit where due. Buell brought it to market, proved its worth on the track, and smart engineers took note. The EBR type of lightweight front perimeter brake & wheel assembly will likely follow the same path. Just give it time and more and more race wins. Smart savvy engineers are watching and taking notes, including those at Brembo. Would be cool to see a competitive racer on a Moto2 bike employing an EBR style front brake/wheel. It's not so much an unknown as a hub centered steering scheme. As to the new Duc, I like the performance touted. The styling is okay, but fails to beat the 996/998 for me. Those bikes defined sexy. This one grows weary on the eyes after a time. Too much disjointedness. It may be functional at 200 mph, but I prefer cleaner simpler lines. On another subject: I guess hair trigger front braking is all the rage now. I don't like it at all, especially for a street bike. The issue i've noticed is that if you are braking moderately and hit a bump, in response your hand moves the lever; braking is perturbed. For me some minimal effort helps avoid that highly undesirable problem. On a nice smooth race track, I can see how super light brake lever effort would be desirable on some levels. What say you JD? Can the braking effort be too light and sensitive? |
