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Blake
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 05:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

John,

>>> I'd point out some of the good things that I've experienced directly; but on Badweb, I'd be called a troll and a liar

That's not true. Truth is that if anyone called you that, they'd be harshly rebuked. If they continued, they'd be banned.

I sure don't imagine that unions don't provide good. I hate the union bosses and the greed and corruption. I hate the same about the Enrons and Madofs of the world.
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Davegess
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 05:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Blake, I go with Ft on this, these are the beginning

5 day work weeks
40 hour work weeks
8 hour work days
overtime pay

Fringe benefits are going away as well.
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Dennis_c
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ulynut sounds like you come out on the good side only a $65,000 Cadillac. A CEO would have a Jet and BMW with a chauffeur.
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Doerman
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you own a construction company, the Union provides a great service.

Construction companies have a varying need for workers - depending on projects.

The construction unions for pipefitter, carpenters etc becomes an effective HR department for the construction company.

For the most part, I have heard good things about the union members performing such work as well. Competent, reliable and performing high quality work.

I absolutely detest public service unions. They have become the "political officer" in the Soviet style government.
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Ulynut
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

He's only showing us the Cadillac. Who knows what those guys are getting that we don't see. I know he lives in a town that I could't afford to live in. Don't forget, that's just the B.A. of my local. There's plenty more officers and executives in the International.

Most guys in my local drive beater pickups, and their wives drive beater minivans. We're not really the lazy fat cats some folks would lead you to believe.
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Blake
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 06:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Those are all laws now, aren't they?

Unless you are a professional, then the corp can abuse you all kinds of ways, no OT pay, and a lot more than 40 hrs work week.

So I guess I can see it somewhat.
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Dennis_c
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 06:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A good example would be Keith Wandell a CEO HD kill Buell sell ? for a $1.00 a old age problem + make millions in bonus $$$$$$$.
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Pwnzor
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 06:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Most guys in my local drive beater pickups, and their wives drive beater minivans.

Most people don't manage money very well. Just saying.
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Dennis_c
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you go to your union meetings you would know where your money went. Thats the way it is in my local IBEW 683. Some of us got off the subject a little bit me included. I get my retirement checks from the union every month like clock work.
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Nobuell
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My company has always worked with trade unions (35 years). We have trade unions men in our field projects as well as in our fabrication facilities. We have some of the best craftsmen in the Chicago area. We keep the most talented as part of our core employees. We have been able to keep our core people very busy for most all of those years. We are very devoted to our employees however...

My company must compete on an International basis. This is where the problem starts. You see, my cost per hour for any of the trades is approximately $80.95. This cost includes the labor rate, union benefits, insurance and our share of the fed and state taxes. We have not made one dime at that rate yet, it is strictly cost. We have successfully competed and have received nice projects over the years. We have been able to get smarter on manufacturing and design more efficiently to keep our labor costs down. We have recently found that other companies are beating our prices. We have no further means to lower our costs. What should we do as a company? Should I close the doors? Find less expensive engineers and project managers? How do we keep the company afloat? The one big issue I have with the trade unions is they have no skin in the game. They do not have to deal with workmans comp issues or pay for machinery or suffer the consequences of bad projects. They do not put in the long hours and the constant attention it takes to run a company. If my company goes out of business, they go down the road to the next company and start the cycle again. Meanwhile, the engineers, secretaries, project managers, draftsmen and designers are out of a job. In the trade construction and fabrication world, this is how it works. This union mindset has worked for the past 20 years.

The problem is, many of our large clients are catching on. They see the high cost of labor and many are now considering non-union companies or having things fabricated by non-union southern shops. We are starting to see non-union companies locking in contracts at refineries and chemical plants once the domain of us union contractors. The hand writing is on the wall.

The trades in the Chicago area have received multi dollar an hour increases every year for at least three contracts. Not one time did the unions consider the impact on a company like mine that competes globally. They demand higher wages and strike or threaten to strike. In 2012 our cost will go up to $84.89/hour. In 2009 the rate was $73.86/hour. In 2007 the rate was $66.51/hour. By next year it will be an $18.38/hour increase over 5 years. Three of those years during the recession. The current take home pay rate alone is $40.56/hour ($84,364.00 per year not including OT). Health care and retirement are extra.

Have the unions lost touch with the realities of the world market? Yes. Does my company expect the unions to work for low wages? No. Where does it stop? At what point does the wage scale become excessive?

There are many who have stated that they would only open a union shop because of the union craftsmanship and others that say to get what you can. It is not that easy. I would like to see how many will sing the same tune if it is their money and livelihood on the line.
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Strokizator
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You guys are wrong. It was Henry Ford who put his workers on 40hr/5d work week in the 20's, well before there even was a UAW. His belief was that unless his workers had leisure time, they would not buy the products that they themselves made. He further found that his workers were more productive when they had 2 consecutive days off vs. just one. Ford was obsessed with efficiency studies.

Overtime pay is mandated by law for all hourly employees. So is per diem/travel expenses. When working on out-of-town jobs, my guys have the option of working four 10hr days instead of five 8hr days. If they don't agree and I have them work the four 10's anyway, I must by law pay the time and a half for the two extra hours each day.

All of the old time "abuses" that were addressed by the unions are now national labor law. OSHA regularly visits jobsites to look for anything it can to justify imposing a fine. I would be sued out of existence if I had people injured due to unsafe conditions or practices. The Govt now fulfills most all the roles that unions once did.

And Doerman, your suggestion that unions act as flexible HR depts works pretty good in theory. In actual practice what happens is the good guys stay fully employed at one company or the other and the not-so-good guys sit on the bench. You need help? Guess who's just waiting for your call? Don't want that guy or want to start your own apprentice? Good luck.

There are lots of good reasons to have a union, it's just that stuff from the 1930's isn't legitimate anymore.

Finally, unions always come out in favor of increasing the minimum wage and not for any philanthropic reasons either. A raise in the minimum wage is always followed by raises for them.
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Ulynut
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 07:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

+1,000 Strokizator.
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Kenm123t
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Locusts !
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Kc10_fe
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Kc10, do you ever get used to that stuff or do your nuts tighten up every time you look over the edge?

The bottom of the hatch is 700 ft below. That tiny speck of light you see in the middle is the bottom.

We still plank out when needed. Hell sometimes I get nervous on ladders. Bosses wont come bug you when youre on a 30 ft extension ladder on the 30th floor.
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Oldfartnbuell
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 10:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Strokizator,
You need to read the book "tinlizzy" (my spelling might be wrong on that). It is about Mr. Ford. It might open your eyes!
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Ferris_von_bueller
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Strok, perhaps you should have done a simple Google search before you made erroneous claims pertaining to the 40 hour work week.


(Message edited by ferris_von_bueller on September 26, 2011)
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Sifo
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 07:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Strok, perhaps you should have done a simple Google search before you made erroneous claims pertaining to the 40 hour work week.

You got me to do a simple Google search...


quote:

Ford was a pioneer of "welfare capitalism", designed to improve the lot of his workers and especially to reduce the heavy turnover that had many departments hiring 300 men per year to fill 100 slots. Efficiency meant hiring and keeping the best workers.

Ford astonished the world in 1914 by offering a $5 per day wage ($110 today), which more than doubled the rate of most of his workers. A Cleveland, Ohio newspaper editorialized that the announcement "shot like a blinding rocket through the dark clouds of the present industrial depression." The move proved extremely profitable; instead of constant turnover of employees, the best mechanics in Detroit flocked to Ford, bringing their human capital and expertise, raising productivity, and lowering training costs. Ford announced his $5-per-day program on January 5, 1914, raising the minimum daily pay from $2.34 to $5 for qualifying workers. (Using the consumer price index, this was equivalent to $111.10 per day in 2008 dollars.) It also set a new, reduced workweek, although the details vary in different accounts. Ford and Crowther in 1922 described it as six 8-hour days, giving a 48-hour week, while in 1926 they described it as five 8-hour days, giving a 40-hour week. (Apparently the program started with Saturdays as workdays and sometime later it was changed to a day off.)


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Sifo
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 11:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A bit more on Ford and unions...

quote:

Ford was adamantly against labor unions. He explained his views on unions in Chapter 18 of My Life and Work. He thought they were too heavily influenced by some leaders who, despite their ostensible good motives, would end up doing more harm than good for workers. Most wanted to restrict productivity as a means to foster employment, but Ford saw this as self-defeating because, in his view, productivity was necessary for any economic prosperity to exist.

He believed that productivity gains that obviated certain jobs would nevertheless stimulate the larger economy and thus grow new jobs elsewhere, whether within the same corporation or in others. Ford also believed that union leaders (particularly Leninist-leaning ones) had a perverse incentive to foment perpetual socio-economic crisis as a way to maintain their own power. Meanwhile, he believed that smart managers had an incentive to do right by their workers, because doing so would maximize their own profits. (Ford did acknowledge, however, that many managers were basically too bad at managing to understand this fact.) But Ford believed that eventually, if good managers such as he could fend off the attacks of misguided people from both left and right (i.e., both socialists and bad-manager reactionaries), the good managers would create a socio-economic system wherein neither bad management nor bad unions could find enough support to continue existing.

To forestall union activity, Ford promoted Harry Bennett, a former Navy boxer, to head the Service Department. Bennett employed various intimidation tactics to squash union organizing. The most famous incident, in 1937, was a bloody brawl between company security men and organizers that became known as The Battle of the Overpass.

In the late 1930s and early 1940s, Edsel (who was president of the company) thought Ford had to come to some sort of collective bargaining agreement with the unions, because the violence, work disruptions, and bitter stalemates could not go on forever. But Henry (who still had the final veto in the company on a de facto basis even if not an official one) refused to cooperate. For several years, he kept Bennett in charge of talking to the unions that were trying to organize the Ford company. Sorensen's memoir makes clear that Henry's purpose in putting Bennett in charge was to make sure no agreements were ever reached.

The Ford company was the last Detroit automaker to recognize the United Auto Workers union (UAW). A sit-down strike by the UAW union in April 1941 closed the River Rouge Plant. Sorensen recounted that a distraught Henry Ford was very close to following through with a threat to break up the company rather than cooperate but that his wife Clara told him she would leave him if he destroyed the family business. She wanted to see their son and grandsons lead it into the future. Henry complied with his wife's ultimatum. Overnight, the Ford Motor Co. went from the most stubborn holdout among automakers to the one with the most favorable UAW contract terms.[citation needed] The contract was signed in June 1941.




I have to agree with him that certain unions foment perpetual socio-economic crisis to maintain power. Great thread!
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Tbolt98
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Damn it!.!.!. I thought it was really a thread about unicorns....
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Dennis_c
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 01:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ford might have been the first large co. with 40 hr work week.
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Dennis_c
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 01:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

who changed it to unicorns from unions are you big enough to admit it?
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Froggy
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've been caught! Just having some fun at the cost of your sanity : D



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Davegess
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ford was quite ahead of his time with the wages and hour thing but absolutely brutal toward any union activity. He was of the opinion that he knew what as best for his workers and anyone who thought differently was to be crushed.

Many of our current workplace rules grew out of union demands and I have to wonder, when the Tea party folks demand rolling back regulation, just how far back they want to roll them? Do we eliminate all the workplace laws and let employers do as they see fit? It would save job creators a lot of money if we did so.
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Ferris_von_bueller
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 03:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

8 hour work day was pushed by labor unions waaaay before Ford adopted the practice. Furthermore, it wasn't until 1937 that a majority of Americans worked a 40 hour week.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United _States
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Ferris_von_bueller
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

certain unions foment perpetual socio-economic crisis to maintain power.

You guys talk about intellectual dishonesty. The lack of it coming from some of the most vocal complainants is amusing. I'm no lover of unions but neither am I a blanket defender of employers or corporations.

"certain CORPORATIONS run by rich folk foment perpetual socio-economic crisis to maintain power."
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Sifo
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

How do corporations maintain power by fomenting socio-economic crisis?
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Chauly
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@DaveGess: Nowhere in the Tea Party statements that I've seen are they promoting a roll-back to the bad-olde-days of sweat shops and 80-hour work weeks (oh, wait, I'm a professional, so I'm already there...) The main premise is that every regulation of any kind has a cost, and rarely is that cost enumerated before it is implemented. If that enumeration equates to workplace injury or abuse, then it should be re-thought. If the enumeration equates to lower productivity, lower profits, more unemployment, or even relocation of the industry, then it should be reconsidered as well. So much of the regulatory morass comes from well-intentioned bureaucrats that lack either the technical background or the overarching responsibility to integrate regs that have unintended consequences. A good example is the EPA; they have Air People, they have Water People, they have Solid Waste People, and they have Hazardous Waste People. Each group promulgates their own agenda to achieve some mark or goal, and frequently shunt a more serious problem onto the others. "Not my problem, just do what I say..."
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Sifo
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As for the 8 hour day FVB's link is an interesting link. Looks like many failed attempts at creating an 8 hour day. One thing I haven't seen anyone talk about is that increased productivity due to modernization and automation has changed things to where long work days just aren't so much of a necessity anymore. I would credit Henry Ford with much of that, even if that wasn't something he had in mind when he was changing the way the world of manufacturing worked. Clearly he was among the early business leaders who showed how well an 8 hour day along with state of the art innovations could lead to great things for all involved. If not for the modern industrial age we would all be toiling long hours just to scrape out a meager living, regardless of any union involvement.

I would really like to hear how corporations are fomenting any kind of socio-economic crisis though. Few business do well during times of socio-economic crisis. Even for a business that might benefit, I'd like to see an example. I think it's going to be tough to come up with.

Unions on the other hand thrive on this. It is their favorite negotiating tactic. In the new today, nurses are on strike leading to a death of a patient. Nice! How often are transportation unions threatening to shut down cities? Other unions threatening to shut down businesses? Teachers shutting down schools? It's standard fare for unions to foment socio-economic crisis.

Tell you what, start giving examples of businesses fomenting crisis and I'll match it 3 to 1 with unions doing the same. Then we can get an idea of who is really fomenting crisis. Henry Ford had that one exactly right.
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Aesquire
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 07:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

...I have to wonder, when the Tea party folks demand rolling back regulation, just how far back they want to roll them?

Very good question. ( phrased like a true follower of the dialectic... but still a good question ) I don't know. Not in the Tea Party, and don't get their memos.

For my part, take each regulation as an item to be weighed in the balance of it's effects. Example. MTBE Poisons the water so new oxygen booster chemical must be used. Ok.
Alcohol? Plus side? farmers make more money, big political hay for a renewable, ( big plus ) very easy to sell, since everyone knows what booze is, but few can tell you what MTBE is. Minus side? rots a lot of gear in current use, lowers mileage, well intentioned but poorly thought out laws create food shortages, leading to ( this is with hindsight ) massive riots overseas, the overthrow of friendly governments, war, famine, genocide, and WMD attacks on civilized nations. ( not all of that has yet happened. just wait. ) Seems to me to be a net negative. We'll see.

Other good questions might be...
Do the tax & spend politicians want a majority to be utterly dependent on the politicians to live, giving them more power? Or just enough to always win elections with the right class hatred rhetoric?
or, How much freedom will a government give you when they believe they give you freedom? How much will that government let you keep when they believe they own the means of production? ( seems to be the same types who believe both )
or,
Will a Union that exists to protect workers from exploitation, keep that as it's actual goal? Can that good Union survive in an age where other unions do hostile takeovers, ( just like the capitalist pig-dogs ) when those are the unions that are most likely to be run by power hungry people who exploit the workers for personal and political gain?
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

...I have to wonder, when the Tea party folks demand rolling back regulation, just how far back they want to roll them?

Huh....what?
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