| Author | Message | ||
     Britchri10 |
RE: Healthcare Professionals Liability Insurance: Several hospitals in Florida are in the process of being granted "Sovereign Immunity" with regard to the maximum amount they will pay out for a claim. The current Maximum is $200,000. Comments? | ||
| Hootowl |
"Could the extra costs be wrapped in doctors' liability insurance costs???" That's a big bart of it. Unfortunately, tort reform was not allowed to be part of Obamacare. Nor was opening up health insurance to cross state competition. Nothing that would actually lower the cost of health care was considered. "Xodot, you are a brave man arguing with this group about health care. They are just a little nutty on the topic." Not brave, just honest. So far there has been no name calling and it's all been very civil and thoughtful, which is quite refreshing. I like these discussions. | ||
| Britchri10 |
I should clarify what I posted above: Sovereign immunity will apply to all physicians, nurses etc' at the hospitals & will limit their liability to a max' of $200,000 per claim. The hospital's liability is also maxed at $200k | ||
| Cityxslicker |
It is personal responsibility and education, and a freakin head on your shoulders that allows you to used both appropriately. Take a look at AIDs and its exponential growth. Its been known since the mid 80's how that is transmitted - risky sexual activity, risky drug activity, poor quality of testing of national blood supply, and transfer of bodily fluids to a mucus membrane. All of them except one are a personal choice that you expose yourself too. And the blood testing in the US since the 90's is full 11 paranoia level. So over 25 years of knowlege about the causes; has the number occurance gone down ? nope, in fact in the last 5 years, because there is believed to be a 'drug cocktail' that is a 'cure' the insidence of reported cases is back on the rise in the US. You can never legislate intelligence, or personal responsibility. but you can sure as hell quit paying for the shiate outta my pocket. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Dave thinks free health care is a right its not. Canadian and European health care will collapse when ours does. The medical technology is paid for here. Volume production helps lower costs but the profits on it are made in the US. When there is no ROI on med tech and pharmacy the industry will shut down. Then where will you get your health care I know your answer the government the real question is where are they going to get it? Insurance should be paid for personally and not tied to your job. As an employer what business of it is mine what you do for insurance? Dave if not wanting to be taxed to the point of its not worth working any more is nutty then I must be nutty. Oh when I get my check up done next month I ll pm you for your credit card # and if you cant cover it all Xdot I ll need your info as well. Hmm may be I can get free health care. | ||
| Aesquire |
Free doctor = more doctor involvement in one's life. Honestly don't see the connection. Unless you mean that when the government has to tax us for your health care, and the budget runs out. Then there is major GOVERNMENT involvement in one's life. Doctors have little to do with most of this. Many of the doctors that DO are folk like E. Rahm's brother, a doctor that never treats a patient, but makes his money selling folk on taking my money to pay for their health care. The purpose of Pelosicare is to destroy private insurance. Now, it's easy to hate insurance companies. Who hasn't been at odds with or had a friend badly treated by the faceless minions of Mammon? Add another layer of very expensive management to the system and for every dollar even less goes to actual health care. How is that hard to understand? We have 50 states so we CAN have experiments in social welfare. Let's see how Mass. is doing with it's plan, Before forcing South Dakota to do the same. Dave? who has poor access to health care? Oh! the Vets? Federal system? That's an issue. Criminal Trespassers in the US have better access to health care than most of the planet. I'll give Canada props on that too. Canadian doctors are far more rational about stuff like morphine and liability issues. We CAN learn much from Canada. We should avoid the things where they have issues. Show me a socialized medical system that does not ration care. | ||
| Davegess |
I do not thin that BUT I do think we need to figure out a way for all citizens to have access to health care in this country. They system we have were employers pay for employees is a historical accident. There has to be a way were we all get coverage and in such a way that we are all invested in what it costs. Right now most of us who have coverage really don't care what it costs, it does not matter to us. Right now I is almost impossible to compare costs, efficiency or quality of doctors and hospitals. It is great to have a free market economy run health care BUT we are far away from that now. You ask me who has poor access to health care? The working poor. Folks who make too much for medicaid but don't get insurance at work. Folks who lose a job and can't possibly make a COBRA payment they need to pay the rent. There are millions in this group. And yes socialized systems ration care, so do we. I agree we need to start some experiments. We need to find an answer. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
as someone that has worked entirely too long in medical insurance; I can tell you it is a loosing battle. It is a bad product. think about it; if you have an individual policy and your contribution and your bosses approach say 500, a month (it is very near what the average COBRA for an individual is-yes if you have kids and a spouse it is more!) So 6000 dollars a year of your compensation gone - on the notion that you might need it, (and another 1/10 of your income gone for Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security- and GenX aint seeing any of it -enjoy) And if you are like me, health, exercise, no preexisting conditions, you go to the clinic for your well exam annually, and maybe a few epi pens ! so my annual outlay in doctors and RX is about 450 WHY THE BLOODY HELL am I giving up near 6K for that kind of service? the answer is simple pay - you pay for your routine expenses out of your own pocket, and run a major med, with Short Term care, Long Term Disability riders. Your prememiums are cheaper, your access is the same, and your benefits for actual hospitalizations are better. and now the kicker - this takes discipline. The money that you would have spent on medical insurance, invest in savings, mutual funds, Health Savings Accounts, and Annuities. Look at where your financial statement situation is in ten years; I know I came out ahead. Its called personal responsibility, take care of your own health, mind your own pocket, and quit bilking me for those that cant (social security, medicare, medicaid, should all be opt out avenues, meaning, if I sign a waiver that I will NEVER use the products, you can never take the money from me) oh but what about emergency room visits ! Read your Major Med policy, they are covered for medical necessities - not I am too lazy or hyperactive to wait for a doctors visit for the sniffles. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Dave your and obamas answer is to tax me 50 % more When the tax rate is so high I cant afford insurance for my self after supplying it to all my employees Icant pay for my own. The problem is the tax rate and who pays. In reality there is only 60-70 million wealth creators in this country. The balance of the jobs are overhead costs. 50% more or less get money at tax season after not paying into the system. Reduce taxes get gov out of the economy and folks can afford thier own health care again. The golden goose is not dead yet but she is sitting down. The problem is too many people wanting to spend other folks money. Those of us that are wealth creators are beginning to think its not worth it here any more. What should be happening is how do we increase US market share how do we help expand the work force. ( dont tell me job training if they want training they need t get off thier _____ sss cutting back on Programs is a start} I cant help those that just want a check If thats all they want sorry barracks and chow hall oh and you had to work at something to get your chow hall chit. Dont start on me about that being cruel etc. You have to start some where when your teaching folks to be human. We have spent generations teaching them to be leeches. Their needs create no lein on the products of my labor. | ||
| Xodot |
Aesquire- Free doctor = more doctor involvement in one's life. Honestly don't see the connection. Here is a scenario not untypical. I have a pain/lump/rash/fatigue/fever (pick one)that last more than 7 days. If I have to pay to visit the doctor because I have NO INSURANCE I put off the appointment because I hope it goes away and is nothing serious. Meanwhile I worry about it and I have stress. I end up getting worse in a month or two and then give in, pull out my wallet and book the doc. Now I have to pay for tests and imaging. Maybe I put those off too because I can;t afford it right now. Time goes by and the disease gets more of a grip and turns into something either life abbreviating of life altering. IF the visit to the doc costs me nothing out of my pocket other than the taxes I am already paying, I'll jump to the doc get early intervention and improve my chances of survival. It is acknowledged that early detection of many diseases = greater chances of recovery. *************************** From what I am reading from y'all - sounds like you should cut the lawyers out (reduce/limit litigation like the Florida plan) and reduce your health care costs so more people can afford better care. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Xdot your oil like comes on you ignore it because you dont have extended warrnty on the car. Engine seizes = stupid You dont go to Dr because you dont have insurance X is the problem you die = stupid. Life is full of choices if you choose not to get medical care because some one isnt paying for it your stupid. Stupid cant be fixed however it is self correcting. I agree we need a shoot the scumbag laywer bill passed how ever congress is polluted with them so a legal solution isnt looking good. (Message edited by Kenm123t on May 29, 2011) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
except that as someone on 'Obamacare' it is not insurnance it is Medicaid, and because the reimbursement rates for Medicaid are so low, that doctors are NOT seeing patients, are dropping eligibility, and limiting pools, many are refusing to accept Medicaid or Medicare patients... and when the rising tide of retiring baby boomers, newly 'eligible' Obamis, and the illegals all start seeking care through that apparatus.... it wont be long before the collapse. It is the steel shed covered in 3 feet of snow. No matter how good the idea of the shed was, when three feed of snow hits, that thing is collapsing. read the news, look at texas. Many doctors are going to cash only, or to enrollment pay pools where you pay a membership fee to be covered by their clinic, AND you pay the service charge for the office calls. We have 3 doctors in town that have gone that way. 3 to 5 k annual 'membership' fee. NO walk-ins, no emergent care, and shortened office hours around Golf. There are only 12 independant doctors in town.... and with the aging population... how long do you think before the others follow suit ? I bet before 2014  And of the EXISTING doctors many are retiring because they are getting in their boomer years, or that the requlatory requirements for ObummerCare are too intrusive, too stifelling, too tedious - the are RETIRING EARLY. it is a catastrof*cky of supply v demand waiting to explode. | ||
| Aesquire |
Xodot, yes, removing the lawyers from a situation often improves things..... I think I recall...."The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". Holding off on medical attention for minor illnesses for financial reasons certainly can cause greater problems, and that IS a common argument for "free" healthcare as opposed to paying yourself, or even a co-pay. Thats true. Where, exactly, do you wish to draw the line on forced altruism in well meaning social programs?? What level of taxation is "fair" for the people who work for a living? ( because no one else really pays ) When a State spends more on social programs than it takes in in taxes? What level of control over your life are you willing to give a policeman over you to keep health care costs down? ( the decision will be made by an appointee of the Secretary. You'll never even know their name. It WILL be a police officer that takes your bacon or cigarettes. ) | ||
| Kenm123t |
Why will people pay 250 for an Erik Buell Racing ecm or a Barker exhaust not picking on Barker. Or not flinch when spending X on the bike but want some one else to pay for the most personal of bills his Drs. Its called greed another is example is to covet what is not yours. | ||
| Xodot |
Kenm - Canadian and European health care will collapse when ours does. The medical technology is paid for here. Could you please quote your source of information for both of these two statements? Life is full of choices if you choose not to get medical care because some one isnt paying for it your stupid. Stupid cant be fixed however it is self correcting. There is a difference between being stupid and not knowing. You went to school not because you were stupid, but because you needed to learn. Learning goes on till the day we die. I took track riding lessons not because I was stupid but so someone could show me how to ride better. I go to the doctor as soon as there is a problem, (and when there isn't for annual checkup and blood stool and urine tests), so s/he can help me live better. Actually your warranty scenario is a good one for this discussion. When you have a little something wrong with the bike and have a dealership to give you service that you don't have to pay out of pocket for each visit - you make good use of the service and bring it in for every little thing thats not right. If you have to pay $80 an hour for the tech to listen to the noise that might not be anything, you might not be so quick to take it in. Universal health care is like a warranty. Sure you pay for it. But you don;t pay for every use so you make more use of it and stay healthy longer. The stats I have shared prove it works. Aesquire - Where, exactly, do you wish to draw the line on forced altruism in well meaning social programs?? What level of taxation is "fair" for the people who work for a living? ( because no one else really pays ) These are very good questions. I don't know. I think it is a personal opinion that is formed in the individual by their upbringing and their experiences. Not likely to get a concensus on that question here or anywhere else either!! haha... Don't forget I only posted to this thread to challenge an assertion from someone that socialized medicare results in a shorter life expectancy when it does not. Cheers | ||
| Kenm123t |
Compare the costs of meds In Canada and the EU drug prices are capped at X so if you sell drugs at a lose in those countrys where do you make your profit. GE Siemens Phillips when imagimg equipment isnt producing the ROI it has to these companies will stop producing the equiptment. once again China may end up being your only choice. The where profits are made in Medical equipment comes from. One of Phillips long time developers he worked there 56 years and consulted in retirement. I worked for him 32 years. My cousin works at GE Medical Imaging they explained where profits were made. When Canadians no longer have access to US health care it will be shorter | ||
| Xodot |
Kenm - {Compare the costs of meds In Canada and the EU drug prices are capped at X so if you sell drugs at a lose in those countrys where do you make your profit. } Please do as you say and compare the price of meds in US CAN and EU and present that information here. Can you show a reference that the drug companies are selling drugs in Canada and EU at a loss? Why do you say drug prices are capped in Canada? Please quote your reference. If GE Siemens Phillips are ever out of business, there is always Samsung, Sony and Toshiba to research, produce and get ROI - just like they are doing now. Please consider 1) There are 50% MORE people living in the EU than in the US. That is a HUGE market to take a loss in on purpose. 2)In business the rule is No mark up = no mission. A company would not sell their wares at a loss. There is no point for them to do that. 3)Not all drug companies are US companies. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
US Drug Pharma functions as DeBeers Cartel Distribution does; the prices are artificially high due to marketing, pattens, trademarking, long R&D cycles, the higher cost of paying our developing workers that CREATE the drugs, and the distribution compensation for management, commissions, P.A.C.s, lawyers, and of course Federal Regulations. Why is an aspirin in the ER 8 bucks? why are 100 of them at wally world 7 ? Why are 222's ILLEGAL and a controlled substance in the US but over the counter drugs in Canada? Why does Bono think that the cost of an AIDS curative cocktail is 2 bucks - when the domestic cost is closer to 138 PER Pill? I would suggest you dont know big pharma any better then the Reps/Senators that signed yes on the HR3200 bill; there is always a bright future in legislation As usual, reality and economics, dont stand up to the liberal care models. The 'Warranty' issue is only like social health care if you take money from my check; and everyone else in a distributive ponzi scheme to PAY for your privelege of owning a motorcycle, and the required maintenance is bilked from 'everybody - for the good of all' If I dont ride a motorcycle, why am I paying for your warranty - better yet, if I do ride, take care and repairs into my own hands - why am I FORCED to pay for your inability to do the same self determination. You do realize that there are 21 NIH respondant government agencies all dedicated to 'quality' in healthcare..... they must be doing a bang up job Look at the 'miserable' state we are in now.... Read the Bill - you have had a year to do so. Or are you still waiting to find out what is in it when Pelosi gets to her next press release? | ||
| Blake |
Dave G. Cool! I agree with most of what you stated. Repeated below with minor spelling edits, emphasis mine: I do not think that BUT I do think we need to figure out a way for all citizens to have access to health care in this country. This is the only idea that I don't agree with. Why do we need to figure a way for all citizens to have access to health care in this country? I assume by "access" that you mean some kind of health insurance that doesn't refuse treatment of pre-existing conditions? Why not simply ask Americans to donate to the cause rather than forcing them at the point of a gun to hand over the fruits of their efforts? Supposedly only around 15% are without health insurance. If so many people care about helping the less fortunate, then why not simply ask for that help? Personally, I'd rather support my local charitable organizations and the local hospitals than send money to the federal gov't. It ends up being WAY too much money, thus power, to ever entrust to the corrupt and incompetent federal bureaucracy. How about more doctors? The system we have where employers pay for employees is a historical accident. | ||
| Blake |
Dave, Back to your earlier comment. The advocacy of Michelle Obama isn't the issue. Never has been. Anyone is free to advocate as they like. She's a nice lady. I like her. The massive unconstitutional federal power-grab and "have to pass it to learn what's in it" outrage is the problem. | ||
| Cowboy |
My Question is why have we let med cost run a way????? My 1st. child hosp. bill was $26.50 (1958) my last grand child was above $18,000.00 (2011) | ||
| Blake |
That's outrageous! Normal birth, no complications? | ||
| Davegess |
That's exactly what is happening though out the medical system. Prices are nuts. | ||
| Blake |
It gets back to what you said earlier, folks aren't shopping for the best deal and hospitals don't advertise them either. For non-ER type stuff, shopping around can make a HUGE difference. | ||
| Hootowl |
"In business the rule is No mark up = no mission. A company would not sell their wares at a loss. There is no point for them to do that." US drug companies sell at drastic discounts/losses outside the US because foreign governments have made it plain that if they can't get the drugs for what they could clone them for, they will simply clone them and produce them domestically. | ||
| Sifo |
Xdot, I really have to wonder if you are being purposefully obtuse, or if you just really don't know what's going on. Please do as you say and compare the price of meds in US CAN and EU and present that information here. Can you show a reference that the drug companies are selling drugs in Canada and EU at a loss? Why do you say drug prices are capped in Canada? Please quote your reference. Why Do Drugs Cost Less in Canada? You also seem to either purposfully, or just through a lack of understanding completely ignore many of the issues being presented. As an example when I said... "Your last point about climate fails in many ways. You complete ignore other differences that may be in play in the mortality rates of the two countries. I also don't think a Mediterranean climate like France can be used to simply compare hot vs. cold climates. Not a good choice at all. Your own Inuit population seems to be an argument against what you are claiming. They are quite resistant to many of the common miladies that we suffer from down here in the states." complete with a link to what I was talking about, you came back with quote{Your own Inuit population seems to be an argument against what you are claiming. I read that source you provide. It's another swing and a miss for you I am afraid. Taken from Stats Can (a federal statistics agency) Article in 2008: "In 1991, life expectancy in the Inuit-inhabited areas was about 68 years, 10 years less than for Canada as a whole. From 1991 to 2001, life expectancy in the Inuit-inhabited areas did not increase, although life expectancy rose by about two years for Canada overall." No the Inuit are not skewing our longer life numbers.} Did you not understand that I was simply pointing out that there are many differences between any pair of countries that makes it impossible to simply find a correlation on a given statistic and draw a cause and effect relationship. There are clear differences in HOW medicine is practiced between the two countries. Great! now you can teach me something I don't know! Tell me what those difference are? I hope you are talking about the practice of medicine and not the administration of medicine. Of course I'm talking about the practice, not the administration. That's why I said "practice". I'm not going to try to make a comprehensive list, but I know that there are differences in some of the diseases that are inoculated against between the US and the UK, as well as very different views on how to treat injuries with surgery and physical therapy. Are there really no differences between Canada and the US other than how we pay for health care? Not much that anyone has presented here that significantly effects the numbers I have presented that indicate a society with open and free access to life long medical care (including free hip and knee replacements to avoid a limited sedentary life leading to obesity, diabetes and other such life shortening problems!) is healthier than one where access to medical care is limited by how much you can pay for either the care or the insurance. So you really believe that there aren't going to be differences in how medicine is practiced when you cross a border. Do the Canadians simply follow the recommendations of the US Surgeon General? I'm guessing that Canada has their own equivalent that makes recommendations for Canadian HC providers. I think it's been mentioned already how various drugs may be treated differently on different sides of the border (prescription vs. OTC). More doctor = healthier life. Anyone want to disagree with that equation? Then try this one. Free doctor = more doctor Reasonable? Therefore Free doctor = healthier life Again your view of the world is so over simplified that it becomes comical. Not everyone in Canada seems to share those simplistic views... http://www.libertynewsonline.com/article_326_28557 .php How does that correlate with how you think things work? | ||
| Davegess |
folks aren't shopping for the best deal It is almost impossible around here to get this info. One of the larger employer groups around here spent several years trying to get this info released to there employees. After years and much pressure they finally got the numbers BUT they can't let anyone but there employees see the numbers. These numbers and much effort at education has kept there HC costs a little under control. Besides that even if cost your insurance company more you have little incentive to care. Pick the birthing center with the best vibe; it cost you nothing now. Most people would be reluctant to give up an immediate benefit for a possible cost savings at some point in the future. | ||
| Xodot |
Hootowl - {iUS drug companies sell at drastic discounts/losses outside the US because foreign governments have made it plain that if they can't get the drugs for what they could clone them for, they will simply clone them and produce them domestically.} Does that mean they are selling at a LOSS? The point I was questioning is Kenm suggesting that they are selling at a loss. Drastic cut in price does not equal loss. Can you dig up credible some figures to support Knem's claim? | ||
| Cityxslicker |
'Folks arent shopping for the best deal' Actually the system is GAMED against it. The CPT, HCPC, ADA, RVRBS's are all CONTROLLED AMA registered coding - ie they are protected like licensed software and their component pricing units are NOT released to the public per contract regulations at the FEDERAL level. If you are a Blue Cross patient, you could pay an ENTIRELY different price for the same surgery as a Group Health Patient, even if performed by the SAME doctor in the SAME facility. The contracting and provider necotiation rates of UCR, R&C with lines of utiliztion management make the priciing matrix different for each company. I have worked at 12 different companies over 18 different legacy systems from Capitation, to HMO, EPO, TPA, PPO, and Self Funded - each one of them has a different price matrix... and that is BEFORE you apply the different benefits matrix on what they cover, what their copay is, their coinsurance, their deductible, their utilization, and their stop loss limiters. Pity none of the Representatives in Congress or Senate are INSURANCE professionals - Too many damn lawyers. Want to know who wins in this new 'Bill' (hint, it aint your family practitioner) | ||
| Xodot |
Sifto: I'm not going to try to make a comprehensive list, but I know that there are differences in some of the diseases that are inoculated against between the US and the UK, as well as very different views on how to treat injuries with surgery and physical therapy. Why would anyone believe a statement like that if you are not going to put in the effort to prove it with a little research? Like they say on this forum about guys results in drag race times and tuned dyno runs "without the paper your claim is lame". As far as what Danny did going to the US for medical procedure - that is his right to do so. I am not asking you to explain the Americans who come to Canada for procedures. You might have misunderstood my message here. I am saying that stats prove that universal health care is cheaper and people live longer, babies and mothers survive more often when then have more access to doctors than under a system where people are reluctant to see a doctor because they have to pay for them out of their pocket and not through taxes. Do you really disagree with that? So you really believe that there aren't going to be differences in how medicine is practiced when you cross a border. }If you believe there are differences say what they are. I am here to learn so teach on. There is not much learning value in unsupported opinion. |
