| Author | Message | ||
     Strokizator |
Move to Canada. You won't live longer. It'll just feel like it. | ||
| Aesquire |
Does this mean some families have to pay (IE not included in their taxes) for their kids vaccines in the US? or I am reading something in this that does not exist? Sometimes in America we actually pay for lunch. True, more and more each day are paid to eat as part of a federal program to give jobs to people who do paperwork justifying their jobs. No child in this country does not have access to health care, and immunizations. Just a few years ago, though, mostly it was this odd thing called a "family" or a "parent" that paid for the kids care, or paid for insurance for same. There were some folk who had a hard time paying for life, and they got help. Then the government got infected by marxist "progressive" ideas, saw a great opportunity to do "bread and circuses" with class envy and get poor people to vote for them. The best part was by lying enough, they got many people to forget that the very same guys who insisted folk with our Presidents skin color not eat in the same room, or use the same water fountain, were setting up a system that would in a few decades result in a 70% illegitimacy rate for African Americans. I work in 'hoods where 1/3 of the adult male population is in jail. Since the folk who wrote the laws are the same Party that was ever so reluctant to free the Slaves ( that the english sold us.... that they bought from the Arabs, who bough them from other tribes ) I suspect deliberately, to keep the former slaves unarmed, poor and beholden to their former masters. I don't know all the details of Canadian Health Care. Some good friends have been saved by good Canadian doctors. AFAIK Canada has the very best health care system in the social democracies. I also know that Canadians come across the border to hospitals here to get treatment that inevitable to the system rationing delays or prevents. Darn Snowbacks are welcome. The dope they import is supposed to be first rate, and you almost never hear of kidnapping by the Druglords that seem to be pretty rare on our Northern Border. Unlike the southern one. Many of my favorite people are Canadian. William Shatner. Dan Aykoyd. Yvonne De Carlo, Kim Cattrall........ As to why Americans are fatter than Canadians? It's the shivering. Burns calories.  | ||
| Xodot |
Hey Sifto - here is my take on your thoughts One thing that the US tends to differ from the rest of the entire world is portion size of meals at restaurants. Not so. Canadian restaurants are basic American chains with the same menus and portion sizes. The last decade has seen enormous portions here too! Yummm. See my comments below on obesity and lifestyle. How about pollution issues in large cities? Good point. Certainly the toxins in the air and food chain reduce health. Canada does have some industry, mining etc left. The problem as I see it is when you DO get sick or diseased, regardless of the cause, people are quicker to get to a free doctor than one you have to pay for and early intervention for any illness results in a better chance of surviving. Therapy, treatment and intervention is not limited by fiscal limitations when we are sick. Are the numbers being adjusted for differences in the number of auto accidents per capita? I'm willing to bet that with more congestion in US cities we get more deaths that way. Traffic deaths, according to WHO, claim 12.3 dead Americans per 100,000 population compared to 9.3 Canadians. So yea our roads are safer by a margin of 30%. That is not insignificant - 30% is a big number... until you compare the 40,000 dead per year to the 313 million population of the US. 40k of 313M is only .01 of one percent. Not a statistically significant event. Your theory does not hold up to scrutiny of application. I wonder if Canada has a welfare system that rewards a sedentary life style and also rewards numerous dependents. I know the US does. You can refer to my previous post about how helpful it is to have a free doctor to assist in making life long healthy choices in lifestyles. Obesity is a RESULT of not seeing the doctor for annual checkups. We view doctors as health guides, not some one to just push a pill or perform a procedure when I am already sick. Doctors are better at disease prevention than curing the illness. But you have to have access to them and that is what universal health care is all about - ensuring you have a professional to partner with for life. (For example, our same family doc has been our partner for 25 years now. He has seen us all through a lot!) Combine that with my company drug plan that for the rest of my life pays 90% of the prescription costs for ALL drugs and dental care and physio, mental health care, chiropractor and eye wear and hearing aids and orthotics and a bunch of other benefits I don't need yet and pays 60% for braces for the kids and it makes for a pretty healthy life. How do climate differences affect life span? Tough question, but I'll take on the challenge. Compare Cold Finland to Warm France - both "socialist" states when it comes to taxes and health care and chosen at random. Using the CIA database - Finland life expectancy - 79.2 years Finland Child mortality rate - 3.43 per 1000 births France life expectancy - 81.1 years France Child mortality rate - 3.21 per 1000 births This would tend to show colder climates (Canada) live SHORTER lives than warmer ones (USA). Yet Canadians live longer then Americans. Is it really that hard to admit that free, easy, regular access to a doctor and unlimited medical treatment and hospitalization when sick makes for a healthier and longer life??? | ||
| Kenm123t |
Blake your wasting your time The control freaks want control and will use any reason Safety or its Good for you etc. The cover story is never the real reason. Its all about do what I tell you to do! Mind your own business is incomprehensable to this mindset. The child death rates do not explain that children have to be older usually more than a month to be counted as a live birth. Also not counted are premies that weigh under a given weight. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Obesity is resultant of a sedentary lifestyle and lack of personal responsibility for fitness. There is no government program that is big on personal responsibility - there is no money in it. do you really need a government program to tell you to get off your couch?.... | ||
| Ninefortheroad |
Interesting discussion... My take is that the differences that universal health care makes on life expectancy and infant mortality (as measured by the WHO) has the probability of improving these STATISTICS. There many other forces working on these numbers and/or how these numbers are generated. Before we assume that "Socialized" medicine will correct this we need to know what are the real factors reducing the WHO statistic. In my state, the lowest income people can be covered by a "medical card" or free health care. There is a income group between them and the people that can afford health care (for what ever reason). This group always has the emergency room and other public and private programs to assist in their health needs. | ||
| Trojan |
It is very dificult to take national health statistics and try and make them into an advert for or against social medicine. Even here in the UK (with a tiny population and area compared to the US) life expectancy varies hugely between areas of the country and even within the same town, although everybody has access to the same NHS social healthcare system. Most studies make the link between affluence and life expectancy and people in 'deprived' areas have a much lower life expectancy than the population of affluent areas. Scotland has the lowest life expectancy in the UK (A figure that is heavily weighted by large populations in deprived areas of Glasgow). I'm pretty sure that similar studies must have been carried out in the US with the same results. | ||
| Aesquire |
I think we should hear from the Brits on this one. One question first. How are the English handling the massive refugee crisis from the flooding of Portsmouth and Liverpool? Aren't those cities now flooded by Global Warming? How's the medical establishment handling such a displacement? I Know Obama promised he'd make the oceans fall. ( take that! King Canute! ) Since the Chinese increase in Carbon output is more than the total cutback in Europe and America, the best he could have done is slow the doom..... http://www.viking.no/e/people/e-knud.htm Or was that statistic faked up too? | ||
| Trojan |
I think we should hear from the Brits on this one. One question first. How are the English handling the massive refugee crisis from the flooding of Portsmouth and Liverpool? Aren't those cities now flooded by Global Warming? How's the medical establishment handling such a displacement? You are too obtuse for me on that one  No floods here I'm afraid  if anything we have a drought! | ||
| Aesquire |
There is a difference between "universal" health care, and good health care. While horror stories abound about problems in US hospitals, most of them get down to poorly written laws to partially socialize the system. ( same is true of College costs, Ethanol Fuel, and other "good intentioned" but stupidly implemented Social engineering programs. Such as a local hospital being forbidden to increase it's size to meet demand. Obviously a bureaucrat 1000 miles away knows better than the doctors and businessmen running a prime teaching Hospital. I dispute the very viability, long term, of social medicine. Any system pretending to be "free" with others money always ends up rationing the service. The number of doctors per patient/time, etc all respond to market forces badly when socialized systems displace free ones. There is exception. More secret police. Lots of jobs denouncing your fellow subjects. Cameras to watch their activities. Control of formerly free speech. I admit, Big Brother in England is still mostly punishing people for such crimes as putting garbage out too soon...... give them time. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/04/19/another- u-n-global-warming-prediction-50-million-climate-r efugees-by-2010-fails-to-materialize/ I was sure that you were all desperate on your shrinking Island. No floods? | ||
| Hootowl |
"I offer two examples: World Heath Organization says twice as many women die giving birth in the US than in Canada and 4 times as many as in those universal health care countries of Europe and Scandanavian. That is a HUGE disparity that needs to be explained."} That example does not show a link to the superiority of socialized medicine, though I agree it should be explained. Socialized medicine is not the explanation however. I put it to you again that demographics are the difference. The differences in populations between the US and Canada are readily apparent to anyone who bothers to look. Look at life expectancy between similar groups of people in each country. You can't compare crack baby deaths with non crack baby deaths and then say people in other countries live longer as a result of socialized medicine. The US has big problems. More government BS is not the answer, and in fact, I believe is the biggest portion of the problem. Same with the obesity argument. No one needs a doctor to tell them they are fat and could benefit from losing some weight. That is just ridiculous. | ||
| Trojan |
I was sure that you were all desperate on your shrinking Island. No floods? Much as I'd love to see some of our less salubrious neighbourhoods washed away by floods of biblical proportions, it hasn't happened yet and I won't hold my breath just yet  Great Britain may have many faults, but at least we don't suffer from earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, sunamis and other terrible natural disasters that have sadly afflicted other people recently. Our politicians have to engineer our national crises for us | ||
| Aesquire |
Our politicians have to engineer our national crises for us That's one thing we definitely have in common.  | ||
| 99savage |
Point For Consideration: Smoking has been de-facto banned using the logic that it increased healthcare costs & hence was a burden on the public. (Not true but beside the point @ the moment) When a complete command healthcare system is implemented - How is it possible to avoid the very correct position - Motorcycles should be banned because riders certainly will utilize the healthcare system far more than non-riders?? | ||
| Cityxslicker |
yes comrade, your dangerous lifestyle is causing a health crisis that is affecting us all; We shall restrict them, make laws to make them exhorbitantly expensive, implace limitiations on riders, times of riding, areas of riding, impose restrictions of safety equipment, speed limiters, exhaust note volume, and of course require an asset forfeiture assessment release with your license to ride, and a required organ donor card for when you end up dead (because you will - the sky IS falling you know) . And to enforce it, the police shall be able to pull over a motorcycle at any time to inspect these documents, and 'ensure' your safety. only a matter of time, half of that list is already under way. | ||
| Sifo |
Hey Sifto - here is my take on your thoughts One thing that the US tends to differ from the rest of the entire world is portion size of meals at restaurants. Not so. Canadian restaurants are basic American chains with the same menus and portion sizes. The last decade has seen enormous portions here too! Yummm. See my comments below on obesity and lifestyle. How about pollution issues in large cities? Good point. Certainly the toxins in the air and food chain reduce health. Canada does have some industry, mining etc left. The problem as I see it is when you DO get sick or diseased, regardless of the cause, people are quicker to get to a free doctor than one you have to pay for and early intervention for any illness results in a better chance of surviving. Therapy, treatment and intervention is not limited by fiscal limitations when we are sick. Are the numbers being adjusted for differences in the number of auto accidents per capita? I'm willing to bet that with more congestion in US cities we get more deaths that way. Traffic deaths, according to WHO, claim 12.3 dead Americans per 100,000 population compared to 9.3 Canadians. So yea our roads are safer by a margin of 30%. That is not insignificant - 30% is a big number... until you compare the 40,000 dead per year to the 313 million population of the US. 40k of 313M is only .01 of one percent. Not a statistically significant event. Your theory does not hold up to scrutiny of application. I wonder if Canada has a welfare system that rewards a sedentary life style and also rewards numerous dependents. I know the US does. You can refer to my previous post about how helpful it is to have a free doctor to assist in making life long healthy choices in lifestyles. Obesity is a RESULT of not seeing the doctor for annual checkups. We view doctors as health guides, not some one to just push a pill or perform a procedure when I am already sick. Doctors are better at disease prevention than curing the illness. But you have to have access to them and that is what universal health care is all about - ensuring you have a professional to partner with for life. (For example, our same family doc has been our partner for 25 years now. He has seen us all through a lot!) Combine that with my company drug plan that for the rest of my life pays 90% of the prescription costs for ALL drugs and dental care and physio, mental health care, chiropractor and eye wear and hearing aids and orthotics and a bunch of other benefits I don't need yet and pays 60% for braces for the kids and it makes for a pretty healthy life. How do climate differences affect life span? Tough question, but I'll take on the challenge. Compare Cold Finland to Warm France - both "socialist" states when it comes to taxes and health care and chosen at random. Using the CIA database - Finland life expectancy - 79.2 years Finland Child mortality rate - 3.43 per 1000 births France life expectancy - 81.1 years France Child mortality rate - 3.21 per 1000 births This would tend to show colder climates (Canada) live SHORTER lives than warmer ones (USA). Yet Canadians live longer then Americans. Is it really that hard to admit that free, easy, regular access to a doctor and unlimited medical treatment and hospitalization when sick makes for a healthier and longer life??? Xdot, I doubt that all your restaurants are really American chains. I don't doubt that you are getting over run with them in the past decade or so. Even if it's been a trend for the past couple decades instead of the past decade as you stated, it will be about another half century for that to be fully realized in your mortality tables. Sorry to hear that Canada is being lead down this path. I'm not sure that fast food necessarily represents the absolute worst in Americans dietary habits in some ares though. There are areas in the US where you just don't eat anything that hasn't been fried in lard with the possible exception of the morning's bacon that produced the lard. Your analysis of auto deaths is done incorrectly. You don't want to know the percentage of auto deaths in the total population. What you want to look at is the percentage of auto deaths from the total number of deaths. That will be a much higher number than .01 percent that you state. Even then you have to look at the fact that auto deaths aren't evenly distributed even across various age groups. It is heavily biased toward 16 - 24 year olds which must be weighted correctly when looking at how that effects average mortality. Then you have the added ambiguity of those whose lives aren't ended by the accident, but who's lives are shortened by the injuries from an auto accident. Good luck putting a hard number on something like that, but the effect is real. This whole answer reminds me of a AlGorian believer in global warming. You claim that nothing presented by itself amounts to the total difference and toss each example aside individually ignoring the total effect, then claim that the total effect must be due to the cause you wish it to be. Your last point about climate fails in many ways. You complete ignore other differences that may be in play in the mortality rates of the two countries. I also don't think a Mediterranean climate like France can be used to simply compare hot vs. cold climates. Not a good choice at all. Your own Inuit population seems to be an argument against what you are claiming. They are quite resistant to many of the common miladies that we suffer from down here in the states. Beyond all of the above there is more to health care than how it's paid for. Different countries have very different philosophies on how to practice medicine. I found this out after developing a very good friendship with a healthcare worker who relocated from England to the states. There are clear differences in HOW medicine is practiced between the two countries. What is far less clear though is what practices are actually more effective. If it were that easy all countries with modern medicine would quickly be following all the same doctrines. That however isn't the case at all. An extreme example of what you are doing could be comparing health care in a modern country to the health care you would get from a tribal witch doctor in the jungles of South America. The witch doctor is supported by the tribe with food provided by the hunters and gatherers of the tribe. His services are provided for the good of the tribe without expectation of payment from the patient. This is certainly a solid example of socialized medicine. Is it fair to compare results from the tribal witch doctor to the results of medicine in another location? Are there really no differences between Finland and France other than climate? Are there really no differences between Canada and the US other than how we pay for health care? | ||
| Xodot |
Hi Sifto, I doubt that all your restaurants are really American chains. I didn't mean to imply that ALL were - most are and they have likely influenced the industry here to super-sized portions. Point being made is we have the same social problem. You don't want to know the percentage of auto deaths in the total population. I didn't . I took the number of people dying in crashes and compared that to the population. You have .01 of one percent of your population dying each year in crashes. That is not a significant contributor to having a lower life expectancy. That will be a much higher number than .01 percent that you state. What is the correct number then? You claim that nothing presented by itself amounts to the total difference and toss each example aside individually ignoring the total effect Well I think it is only fair to examine each claim being made on it's own merit. If there were a couple of causes that could be more than trifling, sure bunch them together and see if the aggregate sums the total impact. Your last point about climate fails in many ways. Oh I agree with what you say. It was a pretty outlandish claim I was responding to. Someone suggesting that maybe a colder climate increases longevity. I just grabbed two similar socialist countries I know very little about that start with the letter "F" and searched the CIA data base for health indicators. Your CIA database claims Child Mortality rate... "is often used as an indicator of the level of health in a country." That is why I used this stat for comparing our two great countries. I thought the CIA information would be pretty well accepted amongst Americans. That is why I used this source. Your own Inuit population seems to be an argument against what you are claiming. I read that source you provide. It's another swing and a miss for you I am afraid. Taken from Stats Can (a federal statistics agency) Article in 2008: "In 1991, life expectancy in the Inuit-inhabited areas was about 68 years, 10 years less than for Canada as a whole. From 1991 to 2001, life expectancy in the Inuit-inhabited areas did not increase, although life expectancy rose by about two years for Canada overall." No the Inuit are not skewing our longer life numbers. There are clear differences in HOW medicine is practiced between the two countries. Great! now you can teach me something I don't know! Tell me what those difference are? I hope you are talking about the practice of medicine and not the administration of medicine. If it were that easy all countries with modern medicine would quickly be following all the same doctrines. I think there has to be a political will to make it happen. As long as the noisy part of the population resist on grounds of "fundamental freedoms", it will be hard to progress to system where the most vulnerable segments of society - the women, babies, children, the sick and elderly - (the people we have been discussing statistically here) have open access to the same quality of health care as everyone else regardless of personal income. Are there really no differences between Canada and the US other than how we pay for health care? Not much that anyone has presented here that significantly effects the numbers I have presented that indicate a society with open and free access to life long medical care (including free hip and knee replacements to avoid a limited sedentary life leading to obesity, diabetes and other such life shortening problems!) is healthier than one where access to medical care is limited by how much you can pay for either the care or the insurance. More doctor = healthier life. Anyone want to disagree with that equation? Then try this one. Free doctor = more doctor Reasonable? Therefore Free doctor = healthier life You mentioned witch doctors. Made me think of Africa (yea the Hollywood influence I admit ) so I checked a disease at random... the rates of cancer in African countries. The is 3 times (roughly) more cancer in North America than those countries I ignorantly consider the domain of witch doctors. Maybe they know something we don"t?  } source: newurl{http://publications.cancerresearchuk.org/WebRoot/c rukstoredb/CRUK_PDFs/CSWOR05B.pdf,http://publicati ons.cancerresearchuk.org/WebRoot/crukstoredb/CRUK_ PDFs/CSWOR05B.pdf} | ||
| Cityxslicker |
its microwave ovens. | ||
| Xodot |
Aesquire wrote:No child in this country does not have access to health care, and immunizations. Just a few years ago, though, mostly it was this odd thing called a "family" or a "parent" that paid for the kids care, or paid for insurance for same. There were some folk who had a hard time paying for life, and they got help. Then the government got infected by marxist "progressive" ideas, saw a great opportunity to do "bread and circuses" with class envy and get poor people to vote for them. I combine his assertion that US children have free access to vaccinations with this fact from 2009. US children immunized - 72% Canadian children immunized - 94% sources are /www.statehealthfacts.org and www.tradingeconomics.com What is the reason for this incredible difference if it's not affordability? Source:http://resources.cpha.ca/CCIAP/data/338e.pdf (a major polling company) "Physicians Play Important Role in Educating Parents More than eight in ten (86%) of parents report that their child’s doctor or nurse has taken time to explain which vaccinations they are giving, and another 75% say they are taking the time to explain the risks and benefits associated with the vaccinations they are giving. Six in ten (61%) have been provided with written information about each vaccination their child has received. Parents clearly want information – three quarters (76%) have asked their child’s doctor or nurse about the vaccinations they are providing. Of this group, the large majority (93%) say their questions have been answered to their satisfaction" Families with easy access to health care professionals (ie for free) become educated in their personal health issues and make informed choices for the betterment of their children. This makes for a healthier society. Yes folks, free, again, seems to be better. | ||
| Xodot |
I just stumbled on this and I can't believe this is true! This astounds me! I thought the numbers would be polar opposites to what they are. Read on. For complete disclosure I present the context of this amazing statistic for 2008. Source :http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/heal th-expenditure-per-capita-us-dollar-wb-data.html Health expenditure per capita (US dollar) in the United States This page includes a chart with historical data for Health expenditure per capita (US dollar). Total health expenditure is the sum of public and private health expenditures as a ratio of total population. It covers the provision of health services (preventive and curative), family planning activities, nutrition activities, and emergency aid designated for health but does not include provision of water and sanitation. Data are in current U.S. dollars. Cost of US health care per capita - $7,300 USD Cost of Canadian health care per capita - $4,400 Health Care is costing each American 66% MORE money than a Canadian, and it's not enough to keep their babies, birthing mothers and old people from dying as often. This just does not make any sense to me. Could the extra costs be wrapped in doctors' liability insurance costs??? I think some one mentioned that happens earlier in this thread. We don't litigate doctors here much - if at all. I expected Canadian costs to be way higher than US. | ||
| Aesquire |
Free doctor = more doctor Reasonable? Um. No. Free mechanics = More Mechanics? If you ( a mechanic ) are told that you are going to get paid less than before, because a meeting of non-mechanics have decided that their free car checkup plan is losing money faster than expected, ( than "expected" by a politician that lied about how much it will cost to run ) that encourages you to be a mechanic in that program, right? Tomorrow, you will be paid less. Tonight the President will lie about you and tell the world that you are greedy and will cut off a tailpipe just to make more money off poor old people. Then they tell you that next month they will pay you less because you suck and that will save the program......... etc. Quite the way to encourage mechanics to sign up? Liability insurance is a large part of doctor's costs of business in the US. That's because the lawyers guild has bribed the "nobles" to give them more money that way. Lots of bribe money involved. Lots. | ||
| Kenm123t |
My sister runs the state baby well care program. The only way all the kids will get there immunizations is when the state takes them for child neglect. Between just plain lazy stupid and Illegal there is the Internet mom that knows immunizations are a plot by Big pharma to poison her kid with mercury. Proof of immunizations is required for school attendance all you have to do is show up at health dept Immunization Drives at shopping centers are run all summer before school starts. Every tax bill in the state has a line Item for the health care district any child that cant get care is because the parents are stupid lazy or both. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Well you live in the most litigious society the world has ever known. Somebody has to pay for all those lawyers. Oh I forgot, it's the insurance companies, & who pays them.... Well you get my drift. I shan't presume to judge which system is the best or the right one. All I can say is that in my personal experience the French one works, & works pretty well. My family have instructions to the effect that if I get hospitalized abroad, they get me repatriated to France at the earliest possible opportunity. | ||
| Reepicheep |
For sure liability is a HUGE factor in health care costs in the US. It needs reformed. On the other hand, Doctors really do make horrible and 100% preventable mistakes sometimes, with devastating consequences, and there should be accountability and compensation to try and make the victim whole. | ||
| Xodot |
Aesquire, Sorry you missed what I was trying to say here. My bad. Free doctor = more doctor Reasonable? Um. No. Free mechanics = More Mechanics? I was not referencing the NUMBER of Doctors. I should have said Free doctor = more doctor involvement in one's life. We good now??? | ||
| Kenm123t |
Xdot fewer drs mean less involvement. Do you think fat folks will loose weight because Dr tells them too? The majority of the obese are unhappy and self medicate with food. Food is thier friend. One reason they are unhappy is destruction of the family and the family structure. By the same busy body social engineer proglibdemons that now tell them your too fat and must have Government controlled lives. People have to make thier own way what ever that is and how it ends up. Living in gilded cage is not living. If you want that go for it move to Europe that could be a problem since freedom is breaking out again. | ||
| Xodot |
Kenm fewer drs mean less involvement.] I agree. Where are you going with this? I have not spoken of the number of doctors. Do you think fat folks will loose weight because Dr tells them too?No. Doctors HELP people (by awareness and education, example and encouragement) lose weight and KEEP a healthy lifestyle which includes moderate food and exercise. Access to a Doc simply helps keep a person healthy if you see one regularly life-long. A social system that does not charge you for seeing a doc means that society sees their doctor more often and AVOIDS bad health decisions and live longer. The majority of the obese are unhappy and self medicate with food. Food is thier friend. One reason they are unhappy is destruction of the family and the family structure. I completely agree with you. But bad things happen even with family support and it is good to have free access to mental health care so you can get the help to cope with life events (think loss of family member) and escape the negative physical results from self medicating with food, drugs , booze and other life shortening life style choices. Therefore free to use health care results in a longer life. | ||
| Kenm123t |
Xdot its not free I have no problem with people having health care as much as they want. last year I paid over 100k in employee health care. Now Obama care wants 50% more in taxes on said health care. The Union plan is too expensive for its cost. with cost of about 8k a year per employee going out soon to be 12k enough is enough. I cant afford health care for my family at the 8 k level much less the 12k. I do not want or will not stand for Gov getting between me and my Dr If insurance wont pay I can still raise the moeny and have what ever I need done. Under Gov plans even if I have the money I couldnt get what I need. Gov plans are evil. In so Fla all winter we get Canadians coming here for surgery. I take care of Surgery centers in winter 22- 30% are Canadians I am tired of being robbed at the point of some one elses need or thats a great idea | ||
| Davegess |
Xodot, you are a brave man arguing with this group about health care. They are just a little nutty on the topic. Here in the US we pay a tremendous amount of money per capita for health care and get reasonably crappy results. Our infant mortality sucks and our life expectancy is not so hot either. BUY it always the fault of something other than poor access to health car. In the US if you get insurance with your job and you can afford to pay your share you are golden. Best care in the world. For the millions without insurance you are screwed. Simple. Any attempt to fix this is condemn as a "government takeover of healthcare". We have reach such a contentious spot in almost all our political debates that any topic becomes a war. The left and right take pot shots at each other and the majority in the middle tries to stay out of the way. On this board you will get a very conservative look at the US. |
