| Author | Message | ||
     Fahren |
Blake, is it "whimp" or "wimp?" | ||
| Cityxslicker |
There was back in the day an ad for I believe a rebel , and it showed all the garb that you would 'need' to buy to 'look' like a biker (including fake ponytail) or you could spend the same money and BUY a bike. and they did get me, I got Rebel 450 still new in the crate in 86 | ||
| Glitch |
Oh to be soo righteous. Sorry bout that Jerry. I'm having a laugh at H-D's new marketing. It's like they're just trying to be funny. I have nothing against anyone riding a Harley, never have. Some of the people attracted to H-D are as funny as the ads though, you have to admit. I started this thread for a laugh, not a commentary on H-D bikes. I'd own one if they built one I liked. I liked the look of the XR1200, but after riding one, I'll pass. No dig on the build quality, just their new ad campaign. Sorry you were offended, there was no dig on you, or anyone here with a Harley, only the new ad campaign, and their new ads. You can look at other sites that critique all kinds of ads, and trust me, they're laughing at H-D as well, and I'd guess less than a third of the ad marketing gurus ride anything. The way they're going about choosing ad material is just as laughed at. H-D isn't being taken seriously by a lot of people now a days. You ride a Harley, you enjoy it, but I'm pretty sure you didn't buy it or ride it because you got some e-mail with a gang banger, and a chick in a tank top telling you "No mall is ready for this" or "No regrets no cages." Relax, have a laugh! I can remember a lot of people being really upset with Buell's last ad campaign "Ruthless" but we all still love our bikes. | ||
| Buellriderx |
We wear black because it doesn't show dirt. Or any weaknesses. Oh jeez.... Does anybody actually buy into this?? | ||
| 86129squids |
GHHHeeeyyy..... | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Relax, have a laugh! Glitch, no worries, mate, this is all in good fun.  I wouldn't have poked my head up if'n JB2 hadn't posted. As his brother, I feel it's my sworn duty to make sure his head don't get too big.  You ride a Harley, you enjoy it, but I'm pretty sure you didn't buy it or ride it because you got some e-mail with a gang banger, and a chick in a tank top telling you "No mall is ready for this" or "No regrets no cages." Glitch, I think my earlier post shows that Harley doesn't have the market cornered when it comes to promoting the bad-boy image. But you're right: Harley's ad campaigns usually leave me cold. I wish they'd focus more on the quality of their motorcycles. One piece of good news is that Victory's current rise in the marketplace should force Harley to do just that. ...but it'd be a great way to communicate solidarity with your friend Erik and associates and to clearly voice objection to those who so royally shafted them. Blake, you're an outspoken critic of President Obama. So, using your logic above, it is safe to assume: - You've denounced America; - Your homes are for sale; - And you and Michele have applied for Canadian citizenship? Mr. Wandell has been in charge of Harley-Davidson for considerably less than 1% of its existence as a company. He didn't found the MoCo, didn't fight for it's survival for the first century-plus of existence, and didn't build, sell, nor does he service my (or anyone else's) Harley. I don't like Mr. Obama, either (strong understatement), but I love my country and don't plan on abandoning her. I feel the same way about Harley-Davidson - the motorcycle, and the rich heritage of the company. | ||
| Danger_dave |
I just like bling. Particularly as I don't have to clean it. | ||
| Glitch |
Glitch, no worries, mate, this is all in good fun  For some odd reason I would feel awful bad if I had offended you. I look up to you, and would hate to have you think less of me. I was going to PM you that very though, but alas I can not. Happy trails! Spring is here! | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Reep, a PS to you: I'd have no beef with the adds and motorclothing except for two things: 1) It has become a grotesque parody of something that might have been interesting long ago. 2) It seems to directly compete within HD in terms of t heir desire and ability to build good motorcycles. It, along with financing, is a huge distraction from the motorcycle business. Both make more money than motorcycle sales do, but have different objectives and end up leading to compromise on the bikes. I'm happy the maker of my next motorcycle is first and foremost a maker of motorcycles. Can't say that about Harley. You seem to give Harley little or no credit for the high quality of their current motorcycle offerings. Have you not been paying attention for the past 25 years? In my best Andy Dufresne: "How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?" (Love that movie...) What "compromises" on Harley's bikes are you referring to? Danger Dave seems to like 'em, and current Harley-Davidsons, particularly ones based on the touring platform, are very well regarded by the rest of the motorcycling press, often winning multiple bike-to-bike comparos. I know you | ||
| Blake |
That's a bit of an extreme analogy, don't you think? We're talking about a consumer product, and not one that is a necessity. If the H-D board of directors publicly called you a liar, would you keep the Harley? I've not denounced Harley, only the bad actors there. I've criticized their business and marketing policy. Same with politics. I've kept my Harley powered Buell motorcycles. I don't fault you for keeping your Harley. If I come across that way, it is unintended. I won't buy U.S. savings bonds while Obama is president. He'll be gone in two years. Will Wandell? One thing that I am very torn over is the dealerships, especially those that remain pro-Buell. I wish they had all voiced strong opposition against the HDI decision to kill off BMC. | ||
| Danger_dave |
I like all bikes that are 'fit for purpose'. Be it a Concours 14 or a Vespa. The touring chassis rigs are very good lounge chairs to sit outside on and watch the world go by. Very pleasant machines. Apart from servicing, parts and ongoing ownership issues who makes it doesn't mean much to me. I have a Honda Stateline test bike currently and really am enjoying it too. Nor do I care about some owner's fashion sense. They are people on motorcycles. Good enough for me. | ||
| Danger_dave |
Just a PS about the Honda. A new Wide Glide compares pretty well against it too. Then so does a Suzuki M90. Which one you bought would probably be a matter of taste. I also do agree with Glitch that the parent's marketing seems to miss sometimes. They wrote a book once. Something about art...or was it cubism.... (Message edited by danger_dave on March 09, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
The voice of thoughtfulness. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
For some odd reason I would feel awful bad if I had offended you. I look up to you, and would hate to have you think less of me. Back atcha, Glitch, and thx. Happy trails and spring is here? Not up here on the mountain, my brother. It's wet enough (and cold enough) that my breakfast with Wolfie in the morning was called off, as he decided to run down the west side of the Appalachians on his way to Daytona to try to come in behind the current crappy weather. Soon enough, I reckon. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That's fair Jerry, we cross posted and when reading your post, I already intended to clarify mine. It wasn't fair to say that the "lifestyle marketing" of everything but bikes is a grotesque parody of something that might have been interesting long ago... it is a grotesque parody of something that has an incredible history and that is actually a very good motorcycle right here and today. They haven't made anything the least bit interesting to me since the Model K, but that's not fair for me to apply that across the board. For an example of how the bikes suffered at the expense of the t-shirt and leather sales, I'd say look no further than the character of dealers and owners. Harley forced these old school dyed in the wool motorcyclists (who I would be proud to be schooled by) to finance and build these multi-million dollar "boutiques". When the economy turned, as a direct result of this forced over extension, nearly all these old school owners were at least driven out of the business, and I bet a bunch saw a lifetimes work destroyed and were lucky to get out without bankruptcy. I bet most of these guys were cagey enough that they instinctively knew that a quirky small and oily shop that was paid for was a better decision than a multi-million $$ museum, and were they not forced to upgrade many more would still be in business. I think the fact that we lost them means the motorcycles suffered. F&S Buell was my local dealer. The limping old crochety owner came back to see what the racket was when I was doing a dyno test of my XB9 (just because I could), and gave me lots of amicable &%^$ about the Buell (which made it clear he liked the bike and the brand and that I was respected as a customer and rider). I think the "bikes" suffer as a result. And of course the pure example is Buell. Buell was closed (and don't kid yourself that it was otherwise) because HD Financial over extended themselves in pursuit of higher profits than they could make on motorcycles. They shut down an innovative motorcycle division because of damage done in their pursuit of higher profits in the money lending field. Had they stayed out of the finance business (or submitted it as simply support for the business of selling motorcycles) their upside potential would have been lower, but their downside risk would have been lower as well. And Buell would still be an active division of HD. Likewise, the idiot add campaigns and accessory catalogs that Buell owners were subjected too over the years were a result of Harley hiring people that could sell style, not people that sell motorcycles to motorcyclists. I expect this extends to the executive level. So the focus of the company on "selling the lifestyle" means they felt they could get away with hiring an unqualified idiot (relative to running a motorcycle company) like Wandell. If you are selling lifestyle, he is fine. And they were, so he was. And the bikes suffer as a result. And look no further than the front brake rotors that came stock with your beautiful white bike. Tell me your bike didn't suffer in pursuit of "style". | ||
| Cityxslicker |
If you want to talk fashion over function, image over potential.... Derringer. 3K for a pimped out schwinn with a 50cc. Dont get me wrong, I love the look, I dig the style, and I would rock the hell outta one, if it were say a 125 or 200 cc in the same frame. but for 3K ?!?!?! I am wrenching my own. but if you get celebrity endoursements, fashion plate press, and new e-marketing; and somebody pays for your product, well gawd bless capitalism. Live long and make bank. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
That's a bit of an extreme analogy, don't you think? Perhaps, but I think it's close enough to the mark that you might reconsider the folly of your suggestion. My Road King is my dream bike, one that took most of my adult life to obtain, a bike that serves its purpose well and looks mighty good in the process. It is a JOY to ride. I've worked my ass off to be in a position to own such a fine machine. Mr. Wandell had nothing - NOTHING - to do with the creation of my motorcycle. I can't imagine any scenario wherein selling it would do Erik an iota of good. Enlighten me, my brudda. | ||
| Swordsman |
Jerry, I'm with ya on the Victory statement. I was really hoping they'd be able to keep their noses clean and just sell some cool bikes. More and more though, they seem to be drifting into that downward spiral of "lifestyle" marketing. ~SM | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
And look no further than the front brake rotors that came stock with your beautiful white bike. Tell me your bike didn't suffer in pursuit of "style". Reep, agree 100%. However, have you paid attention to the braking system used on current-model Harley Big Twins? Brembo and ABS. My bike is five models years old. I have no seat time on anything newer than the RK, but I've read many times how well the new system works. Thanks for taking the time to pen a thoughtful, well-written post. I need to digest it some (I'm supposedly still at w*rk at the moment...), but I can't argue that Erik and his company got the shaft. Typically, when the Harley bashing threads pop up, I simply lurk. Sometimes, when the thread strays from bashing Harley's current management and starts taking swings at Harley's current motorcycles (or their riders), I'll try to offer up something in the way of a counterpoint, as I've done on this thread. Best, FB | ||
| Danger_dave |
I like this Victory stuff - with the possible exception of the 16" front wheel. Prees release on the KR site: http://kiwiridermagazine.blogspot.com/2011/03/vict ory-highball.html One of the things I like best about the 8-ball is the big hoop up front gives it some cornering clearance. Tips in just fine too. If I have a gripe with the bonneville SE for example is that the 17" wheel makes it very easy to get metal down. Turns beautifully, but with noticeably less clearance than a T100. Maybe they have jacked it up elsewhere - as we know - riding it will be the only way to tell. Maybe the fat tyre compensates too. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Excellent choice! But why didn't they take it a step further and reduce both costs and unsprung weight and use a ZTL setup? We can all probably agree to hope both Harley and Victory succeed making more great motorcycles, stops the more ridiculous lifestyle add campaigns, and is always "all about the bikes". | ||
| Pammy |
I get where you guys are coming from. But, if it didn't work...they wouldn't do it. HD is one of the best marketing machines out there. I like Harley's and most of the folks that ride them. Doesn't mean I agree with what the motor company did regarding Buell, not at all. Hell, most of the Harley folks that come in here were puzzled(and kind of pissed) by that hair brained decision. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. | ||
| Madduck |
I was wondering; how many on here can even remember the AMF years?? When Harley and Holiday Rambler were the same corporation?? Where is Holiday Rambler anyway?? Life goes on and a corporation with a 100 year history is exceedingly rare, one with owners tatooing the logo on their bodies is even rarer. Cadillac comes close. No otheres that come to my mind. Current management will pass, Harley will likely live on> | ||
| Danger_dave |
I don't remember last Tuesday. | ||
| Crusty |
I had an AMF Harley. A 1978 1/2 FXE. I rode that bike all over the country Literally. On one trip, we started out in Massachusetts, eventually made it to New Orleans, then through Texas to Colorado, where we spent a good bit of time wandering around the Rockies, We then rolled up to the Northwest, visiting in Idaho, Montana and Washington state. Then back home to Mass. 11,000 miles, and the only problem I had was a broken clutch cable in Lafayette, LA. I put 72,000 miles on that bike, then I traded it in towards an '86 XLH-1100. The dealer gave me three hundred dollars less than I paid for the bike on the trade. It was a great bike that left me with a lot of good memories. As far as Victory goes, I've only ridden a couple, and they were the worst shifting motorcycles I've ever Demo'd. I also think that their Bulgemobile Special (the Vision) is as attractive as a bucket full of smashed assh**es. But what do I know? I know what I like. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Jerry, I'm with ya on the Victory statement. I was really hoping they'd be able to keep their noses clean and just sell some cool bikes. More and more though, they seem to be drifting into that downward spiral of "lifestyle" marketing. Swordsman, I agree - sort of. It's my impression (I've never ridden one) that Victory makes an excellent motorcycle. I also assume that their "core" target market is disenfranchised Harley-Davidson owners, i.e., I don't think many first-time big twin buyers are walking thru a Vic dealer's doors. I imagine that Victory is counting on a major portion of their sales going to former Harley owners, and, if so, it must be very tempting to market the "bad boy" image. And I don't begrudge them, or anyone else, for doing so, nor do I take offense at any company that is able to successfully sell branded items (altho major props to Victory if their swag is actually made in this country...) I poked a little fun at KevinX earlier. What I didn't mention is that he's president of the Victory Motorcycle Club. As such, I think he's a fair representation of what Victory is trying to be. I don't have a problem with that. His bike isn't my cup of tea (in fact, I think Kevin could accurately be called a 'chromosexual') but if it works for him, that's all that matters, and I'd be honored to ride with the man (and shake his hand and say a hearty "Thank you!" - he's also a US Army veteran). As I've done several times before on this board, I've taken an opportunity to point out that a dislike for H-D's current management shouldn't automatically translate to a dislike for their products, nor the people who ride them. That any of us rides at all should be enough. ************************ Reep, not sure you saw this pic when I posted it before. I know you'll recognize the fella in the photo:  Dave Barr, Bodfish, California - February 2011 Dave digs my Road King. I guess him and me are both flaming chromosexuals, too. FB | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
I was wondering; how many on here can even remember the AMF years?? MadDuck, my first Harley was an AMF-era machine, a '76 Liberty Edition Electra-Glide. Loved that bike, but oh, what a crude motorcycle. There were three other Harleys between that one and the Road King above, and that ownership experience (spanning thirty model years) is one of the reasons I can say with such confidence that today's Harley-Davidsons are such good motorcycles. Good to hear from you. Wish you coulda made it to Las Vegas for the big event. FB | ||
| Cityxslicker |
They aint build anything as cool as the 57 ... but that is just my biased opinion  I will have to suffer with a 2005 rendition | ||
| Shellyo |
I remember the AMF years... it wasn't just Holiday Ramblers, it was Head Skis and Brunswick bowling balls and God knows what else... and I was riding old BSAs and Honda Super Hawks and lusting after a Harley. I love my Buells but I also love my Road King, and I'm not a Chromosexual having removed most of the shiny bits. I am however an anti-semantic and as a consequence don't say much, but I mean every word. | ||
| Glitch |
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I wasn't. I should have known better, but it was early. This thread was meant to be about marketing follies, not H-D bashing, or the like. I apologize for posting before I'm completely awake. At least it didn't turn political, although I was scared there for a minute I want H-D, Victory, Fisher, Roarer, MotoCyse (spelling sucks I know) and any other American startup to be utterly successful, motorcycle related business or not. I wish them all well. I get a real kick out of Photoshop Fails as well, maybe I'll post the next one I see for a laugh, as some don't seem to get the marketing humor, or don't want to. Y'all enjoy your bikes, I know I do, it even has an H-D engine that really moves me. Actually I like it better (has more soul) than the Rotax powered one... |
