| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
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| Hughlysses |
I see one thing I really like- an air-cooled, automotive type alternator. No worries of fried stators; easy to change out. | ||
| Ezblast |
LOL - how true! EZ | ||
| Blake |
Jeremy, >>> The issue is that ANY manufacturer seeking to enter the game MUST enter at the very top levels or go home. That's a very bold absolutist statement. Who is the proof of it? I mean for what new single model startup lacking massive corporate backing has that actually happened? I can't think of one. Possibly Confederate? Seems like all the going motorcycle manufacturing concerns either started out small and built up or are offshoots of already massive power-sports manufacturers. Employing two-stroke mopeds for a start wasn't the point, just the fact that you don't need to "enter at the very top levels or go home." I can't think of anyone outside of an already major corporate player or who has done it. Let's hope that Erik and the Motus folks set a new standard. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I make that statement based upon the fact that the motorcycle industry is a mature industry. As such, like all mature industries, the barriers to entry are quite high. There are significant, established marques inhabiting nearly every type and genre of motorcycle. Entering the market is very difficult and doesn't happen quickly. Much of of the pricing is dictated by economies of scale. Honda has it. Suzuki has it. BMW has it. Even Buell, with 10,000 units a year had it compared to Erik Buell Racing now. Small production runs, because of the lack of per price competitiveness, is still very expensive on a per unit basis. If off the shelf components are used (like off the shelf engines), many times they are not the top of the line. Again, I bring up Hyosung. They are powered by Chinese knock offs of old SV650 motors. They aren't bad bikes, but at $5495 most would prefer to pay $6,899 for a Suzuki Gladius 650 and get the real thing. Even using cheap Chinese components the price point is quite high. When was the last time you saw a brand new automotive marque? Tesla? They won't be producing cheap grocery getters. They will be producing $40,000+ cars. It is easier to move down market than up market. Ask VW when they produced the Phaeton. The issue is the type of company you want to be and the type of product you want to produce. Erik Buell Racing could have produced 125cc pit bikes, but it isn't what EB wanted to produce and not what he could get investors to buy into. He doesn't have 30-40 years to build to the bike he wants to produce. Therefore, Erik Buell Racing had to produce a bike that is four times the price point of the bike the typical Buell buyer could buy. It provides the platform investors will back, it provides bikes that can be sold at a profit, and it provides bikes that can be sold. Additionally, so much of the buying public reads and depends upon the opinions of industry magazines when buying. When Sport Rider pans a Hyosung or Shinko tires, the buying public discounts them without even looking critically at the product themselves. The product is a great value but is compared against non-value products with established product lines rather than for what they are. Go after the luxury market with top shelf products and you are more likely to get a pass from the press and buyers for your products. | ||
| Glitch |
 Don't look so massive any longer. WRT manufacturing, it's pretty logical. Cost drives everything. Cost drives price. Price drives sales. Sales drives more production. So it's pretty logical to start small. With starting something new you get to throw in risk. Another reason to start small. Keeping production small allows for less risk. Pretty simple. Hyosung is selling like crazy here, they just expanded their showroom. Mainly selling scooters, and the smaller motorcycles. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Small quantities with cheap components or small quantities with expensive components don't matter. The margin is based on quantities ordered. It's only when you order the right quantity that the price per unit drops and profit rises. Order 100 crank cases and the price per unit will be $X/unit. Order 10,000 crank cases, and the same crank cases will be far less per unit because the manufacturer operates on margin. The inverse is true for sellers of the final product. Sell one unit of one available and the per unit profit will be very high (think Confederate Motorcycle). Sell 100 units, and the profit margin per will be less, but it will still need to be high to cover overhead (rent, salaries, utilities, advertising, materials / units sold). As the number of units sold increases, the fix costs are able to spread out over more units reducing the per unit cost and increasing the per unit net profit. The reason manufacturers like Motus, Motoczysz, Rhoehr, Erik Buell Racing, Wakan, Confederate go after the high end of the market first is that it's the shortest route to top tier notoriety and economies of scale. There is a market for people who are willing to buy unique motorcycles that come with a premium price tag. Each additional bike sold comes with a diminishing cost structure and increasing net profit margin. As the company is able to reduce price (and net profit margin), each reduction in price increases the potential for one more buyer to be willing to purchase a bike (supply and demand). | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
I wish these guys all the luck in the world how ever if this bike is priced in the range of the BMW and is targeted at BMW then I would hope that it has some of the comfort items that BMW is known for having such as anti-lock brakes, heated hand grips, and cruse control. If not then I think it would just be an over priced under featured ST bike. Going with CF high end suspension and lots of power is something you do with a high end sport bike not a sport touring bike. Erik Buell Racing this year was not after mass market bikes he is after a race bike with mass production bikes in the future based off of those bikes in the future. Erik knows how to sell a mass market bike and I have all the belief in the world he plans to do that again in the near future. He knows that medium quality parts equates to a good bike with an affordable price such as showa suspension instead of ohlins and things like that. He went big with the 1190 because he knew he only has limited resources at the moment so could only build a limited number of bikes. By keeping the bike at a high price with high end parts it keeps the demand low there for he can meet the demand. I say all that because I can see Erik's goals I am not so sure I see these peoples goals with this bike other than building another high end American bike no one can afford there for it in my eyes is another motocycsz or Rhoehr only difference is this one has bags hanging off of it. | ||
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| Firebolt020283 |
To me the spokes person seems like a pencil pusher and not a motorcycle nut. EB never wears a 3 piece suit to introduce his new bikes he dresses like us so he looks more like he knows what motorcycle is. Not saying this guy don't but if I am going to introduce a motorcycle to the world I want to look like I ride and not like I just came from wall street. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
the engine sure sounds good I think. | ||
| Blake |
>>> When was the last time you saw a brand new automotive marque? Every successful new marque has started small, with compact econo vehicles. VW, all the Japanese mfg's, Hyundai, Kia to name a few. I don't know of one in the past five decades that entered the market at the high end. I think one of the reasons is just plain gaining knowledge and experience. Relatively speaking it takes a much bigger pool of knowledge end expertise to put together a competitive high end product compared to a competitive entry level one. That kind of vast knowledge takes time and lots of experience to amass. I hope the Motus folks do well. Economy of scale is huge when it comes to non-recurring costs too, all the design, engineering, tooling, production facilities. It is a Herculean challenge in a good economy to establish a new mark of road going vehicle. Back to the bike... I wonder why, with all the fantastic development and widespread use, we don't see some turbocharged motorcycles? I wonder how much weight the Motus engine could save by dropping two cylinders in exchange for a turbocharger? | ||
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| Blake |
Good grief. I just watched the suit on the bike presentation. If they want to have any chance of success, they need a new PR man, like yesterday. His hesitant manner screams lack of confidence in his own product. Not good. Direct injection is too cool. Go America! | ||
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| Blake |
That carbon fiber finished naked one looks okay to me. | ||
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| Ft_bstrd |
That carbon fiber finished naked one looks okay to me. It's a test mule. | ||
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| Firebolt020283 |
I am not saying they should start with starter bikes all I think is they should use medium grade parts such as nissin brakes, showa forks and plastic or fiberglass body over CF to make a more affordable bike and yet still be a good handling bike. I am not saying I would not want to have brembo brakes and ohlins suspension if I had that kind of money But maybe do like Ducati and make it an option. (Message edited by firebolt020283 on March 07, 2011) | ||
| Blake |
They are aiming for a higher market. The high end components lend it caché for that. |
