| Author | Message | ||
     Ourdee |
1. Have you been in the military and went through a "Study"? 2. How much identifying info did you answer by coloring the little boxes? 3. Were you made to feel that there were right answers while being told there weren't any? 4. Is a man in uniform able to discern the third and forth time a question is presented asking the same thing? 5. Are we to believe that a study's results can not be manipulated like a poll? | ||
| Whisperstealth |
Try the MMPI. 500 questions asking the same thing over and over again. Worded slightly different. | ||
| Kc10_fe |
Look the DOD does a bazillion studies. Quit looking for something to make sense because you wont find any good details without submitting an FOIA request for whatever youre looking into. Most folks over the rank 0-6/E-8 are career politicians in addition to whatever AFSC/MOS they carry. Some are yes men and some are yes yes men. Surveys come out almost weekly for some people. I have 3 that need to be completed myself. Questions are point black and go from A-Z. To answer your question about people in uniform being able to see the obvious the answer is yes. I wish I could say the same about the general public. | ||
| Scottykrein |
I took the DADT survey for the Army. It was VERY straight forward, unlike most of their surveys. | ||
| Midnightrider |
Let me start by saying I believe (can't say categorically) that "the military" is taking this very seriously. I have taken more than one survey but honestly I haven't taken the time to investigate and see which particular survey(s) they are citing in the news. I sat in a mandatory meeting a few months ago with a couple hundred GIs at Joint Base Andrews. The panel on stage consisted of an Army Lt General, Mr David Ginsberg, Asst Sec of the Air Force, a Navy E-9and a couple other senior folks. They were there to get honest feedback. I believe they got it. The majority of the folks who offered their opinions, officers and enlisted, were overwhelmingly against homosexuals openly serving in the military. So I am a little surprised by the 70% number being quoted as not having an issue to it. This will obviously continue to be a very controversial issue. I don't think there many senior leaders/policy makers who see the ban on homosexuals serving and or DADT surviving much longer. That's simply my perception. Time will tell I have to tell you, that for the record I was disappointed but not entirely surprised at the level of objection. Some cited their faith (homosexuality is "an abomination"), others misconceptions (they would be unsafe in military barracks showers)or that gay/lesbians virtually all have HIV/AIDs and other STDs and their heterosexual service members don't (yep, somebody real told a 3 star officer that). I remember seeing an old "West Wing" television drama were someone asked (the black actor) portraying the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs for his assessment. He likened it to the pain the military went through when they first went through racial integration. Did it cause some big problems. You bet. Did we pretty much get over it. I think so. Bottom line - I don't know who they asked for this survey and while it may serve a useful tool I don't think it'll change or delay the outcome. It'll happen Last thing - the General related a personal story of when he tried to pin down several foreign counterparts who do not have such a ban in their fighting forces. My favorite was the Israeli General who tried to sidestep but eventually told the General that they "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Care...) BTW - question number four is pretty insulting and ignorant. I've got nearly 28 years in the Air Force and Air National Guard and the educational level of the enlisted troops, especially the younger ones is amazing. Many have completed or are working at completing college degrees. It's not unusual to meet some mid-term airmen with one or two master's degrees. So yes, they can discern when a question is presenting asking the same thing (Message edited by midnightrider on November 30, 2010) | ||
| Midnightrider |
I forgot to say "Flame on" But before you do, here's another episode of the West Wing where they address the "Homosexuality is an Abomination" train of thought based on the Bible http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI I am a Christian and even attended a Christian University. But one of the premier things I was taught by a Christian professor teaching a course on Christian values and the Bible was not to take everything in the Bible literally | ||
| Geforce |
Lots of retirement packets are being put together... lost of re-up decisions are being made. We'll see where this goes. | ||
| Ourdee |
Kc10, I was leaning toward that answer on #4. Scottykrein, Odd to me that they didn't play the usual game, or did they? Were you made to feel that there were right answers while being told there weren't any? Midnightrider, No insult in #4. Just the opposite; as it was to make the point that the serviceman is not a dummy. The 70% result reported lead me to (opinion) think it was the standard manipulation on questions and respondents that I experienced from 78 to 84. I do disagree (opinion) with the anti-literal professor's discrediting of the bible, in that he is offering a slippery slope. (for another thread though) Geforce, Like in Bourne Ultimatum,"See what they ask you to give"? My heart goes out to you and your family. I would not want to have to choose between my convictions.... | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Cory, I was thinking the same thing. For "new" recruits it may not be as big a deal as it will be for retention of folks with 10 years or so. My guess is that middle enlisted ranks are going to take a hit. The older guys will "suck it up" to retirement, and the younger one will say "f'it this is one more headache I dont want to have to deal with, this job is hard enough already". My guess also, is that its more of a perception problem than it will be an actual problem. Nobody wants to deal with the "fairy" type gays but those aren't the type that would sign up.....and even if they did they probably would wash out in basic/boot anyway. I'm sure there are plenty of gays that can and would make decent soldiers/marines and it would never be an issue. The problem is going to be with the moderate to very "girly" ones that squeal cause they're getting dirty or cant shower regularly. The DOD could also provide for some type of way to make it easier for "guys" to quit once they get in a realize it aint "summer camp". | ||
| Blake |
Our genetic physical characteristics known as "race" are not optional or chosen by us. Deciding to sodomize another man or be sodomized by another man is purely a choice. That choice, freely made and freely acted upon, constitutes deviant unhealthful behavior. It is behavior that is deeply abhorrent and repulsive to many. Trying to equate that to the issue of race is deeply intellectually dishonest, par for the course for "liberal" left-wing Progressives. | ||
| Geforce |
Well, the way I see it, and I've said this so many times before. I really DON'T care what someone wants to do with their private life. I have my own beliefs and standards that I am accountable for. With that said... the only way I would feel better about this entire situation is is the entire force just went straight up unisex. Cohabitation, latrines, everything. At this point, just offend everyone, all the time for the sake of being politically correct. As for the survey... I voiced my opinion, the rest of my peers did as well and we spoke about this very same topic this morning before PT. None of us can understand how they came upon these results. Granted... all of "us" are mid to indefinite career Soldiers. Our opinion was that the larger percentage of the junior Soldiers just don't know enough about the military to make an informed decision. I'm not saying that junior Soldiers aren't intelligent enough... I'm simply saying that they lack the experience of leading troops, training troops and accomplishing missions. There is a difference between a professional Soldier or career Soldier... and a Soldier who simply wants to do his part and really doesn't care what the Army ends up doing because they won't be effected by it. At this point, I just don't even know if I should care about it anymore. Everything that I have been taught about values, standards, ethics, principles seems to not be important anymore. And again... I agree that with the current policy there is a double standard and I EMPATHIZE with that. I can understand the issues. I just don't AGREE or APPROVE of said lifestyle in relationship to military service. God help us all. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Well said Cory. As for the unisex.... it makes me think of Starship Troopers (too bad not everyone is that good looking) | ||
| Blake |
This report states that 60% of front line fighters oppose repeal of DADT. An excerpt: Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, in releasing a study he ordered to meet President Obama's directive to end the ban on gays in the military, disclosed that the chiefs of the Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps and Army disagree with the report's conclusion that the impact on combat readiness would be "low." | ||
| 86129squids |
"MMPI"... A long time ago I had a copy of a spoof, called: "North Dakota Null-Hypothesis Brain Damage Inventory" Great stuff, mebbe later I'll try to find it... | ||
| Blake |
What the #@$^% are you talking about???  | ||
| Geforce |
I think MMPI might stand for... "Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory" I did find this... "North Dakota Null-Hypothesis Brain Damage Inventory Parody" Answer true or false. 1. I salivate at the sight of mittens. 2. If I go into the street, I'm apt to be bitten by a horse. 3. Some people never look at me. 4. Spinach makes me feel alone. 5. My sex life is A-okay. 6. When I look down from a high spot, I want to spit. 7. I like to kill mosquitoes. 8. Cousins are not to be trusted. 9. It makes me embarrassed to fall down. 10. I get nauseous from too much roller skating. 11. I think most people would cry to gain a point. 12. I cannot read or write. 13. I am bored by thoughts of death. 14. I become homicidal when people try to reason with me. 15. I would enjoy the work of a chicken flicker. 16. I am never startled by a fish. 17. My mother's uncle was a good man. 18. I don't like it when somebody is rotten. 19. People who break the law are wise guys. 20. I think beavers work too hard. 21. I use shoe polish to excess. 22. I like mannish children. 23. I have always been disturbed by the size of Lincoln's ears. 24. I always let people get ahead of me at swimming pools. 25. Most of the time I go to sleep without saying goodbye. 26. I am not afraid of picking up doorknobs. 27. I believe I smell as good as most people. 28. Frantic screams make me nervous. 29. It's hard for me to say the right thing when I find myself in a room full of mice. 30. I would never tell my nickname in a crisis. 31. A wide necktie is a sign of disease. 32. As a child I was deprived of licorice. 33. I would never shake hands with a gardener. 34. My eyes are always cold. I think I might print this out and give my wife this test when I get home. | ||
| Argentcorvid |
"I'm sure there are plenty of gays that can and would make decent soldiers/marines and it would never be an issue." you forgot "and do" in the above sentence. Just because they're not out there chanting "We're here, we're queer, get used to it" doesn't mean they're not there. My ship (out of a crew of 150) had 3 guys that were pretty much on the 'open secret' level about it, and there were at least 2 more that everyone kinda just assumed were gay. Not once did it affect our 'operational readiness'. "Deciding to sodomize another man or be sodomized by another man is purely a choice. That choice, freely made and freely acted upon, constitutes deviant unhealthful behavior. It is behavior that is deeply abhorrent and repulsive to many. Trying to equate that to the issue of race is deeply intellectually dishonest, par for the course for "liberal" left-wing Progressives." So, When did you make the conscious decision to get excited by women? Sexual preference is as much a conscious decision as what color your skin is. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
Are they are gonna have to have aids tests regularly? I mean, if a heterosexual soldier risks his life to save a another soldier,... who happens to be a fudgepusher and brings him to safety, and then has to risk his life a second time tending to his wounds risking getting infected with aids? Just a question. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
"My ship" where do I start..... LOL | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Are they are gonna have to have aids tests regularly? We got tested before and after every deployment | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Argentcorvid - Thank you, and I agree. There was a guy in my battery that was more or less known to be gay and nobody cared b/c he did his job and in fact did it better than most of the other guys....and that was back in the 80's before "Dont Ask, Dont Tell" Are they are gonna have to have aids tests regularly Thats really irrelevent, when I got shipped off for "Desert Shield" I got all kinds of crap injected into me that I no real say or control over. If "they" tell you you're gonna do something you do it. If its a known case of aids they're gonna put him out of the service, just like any other untreatable communicable disease.... herpes, hepetitus and so on. | ||
| Geforce |
"If its a known case of aids they're gonna put him out of the service, just like any other untreatable communicable disease.... herpes, hepetitus and so on." - That is an inaccurate statement. Might be true for your period of service, but not this period. Now-a-days... you get reclassed, and put on a permanent profile or medically chaptered if it's REALLY bad, but... you can have untreatable, communicable diseases and remain on active duty... especially STDs. It's all up to the docs/medical review and evaluation board for the life threatening ones. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Holy crap, that is shocking to me. I was sure they were an automatic medical chapter..... Shows how times change when your out of the loop. Lol, I wonder what they call the profile???? The, "Do not touch, he has shit you cant get rid of" profile. | ||
| Geforce |
It is extremely frustrating to no ends. Now... I have a separate opinion on the profile business. In my opinion, if a Soldier comes down with some bad @#!% and they still want to serve but they MREB wants them out of combat arms because of communicability...then let 'em reclass and take a squishy job. | ||
| Midnightrider |
Blake said "Deciding to sodomize another man or be sodomized by another man is purely a choice. That choice, freely made and freely acted upon, constitutes deviant unhealthful behavior. It is behavior that is deeply abhorrent and repulsive to many. Trying to equate that to the issue of race is deeply intellectually dishonest, par for the course for "liberal" left-wing Progressives" First of all, I'm a registered Republican. Regardless, Blake, so you could choose to be gay, you just don't, correct? Did it ever occur to you that a gay person might have a similar reaction to the thought of heterosexual sex? There is a fair amount of scientific study pointing to the "hard-wired" nature of our sexual orientations. But I'll assume you would dismiss that too. A lot of people do - some of the same ones who embrace creationism despite all the evidence of evolution. I really try to take the high road with regard to these deeply personal issues - like sexual orientation, religion and politics and culture. I can usually respect someone who is different from me in almost any aspect as long as they treat me and others with the same respect. But I'm only human and sometimes someone's utter ignorance just pushes my buttons. I know it's wrong but I just can't keep from reacting. There's an old adage I like to quote. Some attribute it to Samuel Johnson, others to Lincoln, and some others say it may go to Plato. It goes something like this "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt" Blake, you should have taken that advice. | ||
| Midnightrider |
Not sure what service Geforce is with and I'm not saying he's wrong - but in the Air National Guard it's quite different. If a medical board finds you not qualified for worldwide deployment ( like HIV would do) you're pretty much done. I'm losing two guys this month alone for medical conditions (one a 24 year veteran who has probably had the condition all his life, it was just found accidentally in a routine test and the other, a cop on the outside, for asthma) You might theoretically have the option to retrain into a nondeployable job if you could qualify and if there was an opening, but those are very few and far between. In my squadron of approx 100 civil engineers we have zero nondeployable positions. I think in the 1000-man wing there are less than 4% | ||
| Blake |
This is not a discussion about Blake. Sodomy is a horrendously filthy disgusting act. Choosing to engage in such a filthy act speaks to the character of a person. Would you seek to touch another man's feces? No? Why? But it's okay to expose mucus membrane to fecal matter? Such disgusting deviant behavior should be equated to normal procreative relations? Sorry. That is beyond mere foolishness, it is lunacy; it is infuriatingly outrageous. Think. Ignorance is fostered and marketed by those pushing an agenda that would fail if exposed to truth. | ||
| Midnightrider |
Couldn't wait to see the reply but I have to admit it is even more obtuse than even I imagined. First of all, are you assuming (incorrectly) that all gay men have anal sex? What about lesbians? Is that OK in your book because there is no fecal matter involved? What about heteros who go that way? No one is asking that question when you join the military. Or, on a different line, if I follow your train of thought, are all nurses who come in contact with another person's feces filthy people? Are all parents who change a diaper? You'll probably want to tell me that nurses or parents aren't pursuing sexual gratification - so I'll grant you that one. But what about lesbians? I understand that you find it repulsive and it's nothing I'm interested in either. I won't eat McDonald's fast food but I don't think anyone who does eat that stuff is going to try to force feed me their McNuggets in the shower (pun intended). It's really the same thing - your failure to grasp the realities involved based on an emotional response. That does make it about Blake. I am as repulsed by homophobes as you are by homosexuals. But I won't try to tell you what career choices you can or cannot make (but I would recommend you leave social worker, psychiatrist, physician or guidance counselor off your list. Or pretty much anything having to do with children.) Maybe the Westboro "Church" would be a good fit- I think they may be looking for a few good zealots. | ||
| Midnightrider |
And oh, before I get my privileges here yanked -Ourdee, thanks for the clarification on number 4. I misunderstood you. My apologies. And I didn't take my prof's statement as discrediting the Bible, just another interpretation from someone a lot smarter and with a lot more formal religious training than I have. You and I could probably have an interesting and adult discussion but you're right - that's for another time and place. Take care Don | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I have a hard time weighing in on this topic. There are simply no good answers. Theologically, God categorizes homosexuality as sin. In God's eyes, sin is sin. The GI who commits sodomy is no more "sinful" than the GI who is watching porn. There are no lesser evils in God's eyes. Does homosexual tendencies degrade someone's ability to perform their military duties regardless of whether sexual acts are committed? I just don't know. My gut tells me no. The issue is whether or not the presence of gay (or straight) sexual activity within the ranks creates distractions that degrade military effectiveness. I believe this is about the only place where a case can be made. You can not control how someone thinks or feels. Right or wrong. Feelings of animosity between members of the same unit degrade cohesion and effectiveness. If someone who is openly gay and someone who is a homophobe can't get along, throw them both out. I doubt it will be an issue for long among who is left. While I do not approve of homosexuality, I don't have any animosity toward gay people. Their decisions are between themselves and God. My job is simply to show them love as a person the way I think Jesus would. |
