| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
You can beat up on me. I know you like me.  We did have some younger buyers but not NEARLY as many as the typical HD buyer. The young buyers who left on an HD had the same sh*t eating grin that every Buell owner who left the parking lot did. There just weren't enough of them. This is HD's dilemma. We had significant participation in our MVP program (Special perks for members). Very few younger riders would show up or would even want to. It was a great event and very fun, but I was one of the youngest people there (besides HD employees). I ain't no spring chicken. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
This is HD's dilemma. HD's dilemma is the economy. Wouldn't you agree? | ||
| Sifo |
HD's dilemma is the economy. Wouldn't you agree? Not entirely. Any company that wants to be viable long term has to be able to weather the slow periods. HD should know this as well as any company. The economic cycle will eventually change. Those that have weathered the hard times will thrive on the recovery as long as they have a good business plan. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Not entirely. What dilemma, besides the economy, is Harley facing? I'd argue that a company that has been in business for over a century probably knows something about weathering hard times. | ||
| Sifo |
Loosing their core market, would weigh heavily on my mind if I had an office at the HD headquarters. The economy has just made other problems a crisis instead of simply lean times to be weathered. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The economy revealed the weaknesses withing HD's marketing strategy. HD was pump and dumping their own bikes using subprime lending. The weaknesses of HD's strategy have been hidden by easy credit. Our dealership has actually been doing quite well in this economy. Not all dealerships have been so fortunate. I credit it to the leadership and the quality of the personnel. All motorcycle companies have been hit by the economy. The question is where is HD going to go in the next 10 to 20 years. Average age is 47 with over 20% of HD's market over age 55. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Loosing their core market, would weigh heavily on my mind if I had an office at the HD headquarters. The economy has just made other problems a crisis instead of simply lean times to be weathered. My take is that any customers Harley may be "losing" of late is entirely to do with the economy. What other core problems am I missing? | ||
| Sifo |
What other core problems am I missing? Other than losing customers who can't get a leg over a bike after having their hip replaced, and not attracting young riders, I'm sure HD will do just fine. | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
well sometime last year my dealer had this sportster: it WAS an 883, but then they put the 1200 kit and some buell parts in the motor...put out about 90rwhp, then they ditched the forward controls, and cruiser position, put clubman bars on it, a body kit, and a vance n' hines 2-1 exhaust. the tech said it would flat out WOOP on a new XR1200! out of all the sportsters ive seen IN PERSON i like this the most...this is what hd should make, as a big brother to the xr1200:   Jake | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
The weaknesses of HD's strategy have been hidden by easy credit. Doubtful you or I'd have done it much differently had we been at the controls during the boom years, eh? Average age is 47 with over 20% of HD's market over age 55. Someone reading this stat without putting much thought into it would assume that Harley's present woes are a direct result of a shrinking customer base that is not constantly being refreshed by new (albeit old-ish) customers. This isn't really the case, is it? | ||
| Pwnzor |
Hadn't you guys heard? The recession ended a year ago! http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68J2JJ201009 20 | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I believe the concern with the "core market" has to do with the average age of that core market. The peak of the bell curve continues to move to the older end of the graph. This isn't because there are more older new riders entering HD ownership. There are simply fewer and fewer younger riders buying HDs to keep the average focused. The main issue is that HD's core market are the Baby Boomers with little or no interest being shown by Generation X, or Y or whatever. Kids born today were born 41 years after Easy Rider. This would be as relevant for those born in 1969 as the silent, black and white films of 1928. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Other than losing customers who can't get a leg over a bike after having their hip replaced, and not attracting young riders, I'm sure HD will do just fine. As Harley riders get "too" old to ride, new riders slide up the age scale to take their place, right? Have we humans suddenly stopped procreating? I must have missed the memo. Young riders? Well, I think the Sportster is still a strong seller in this market; perhaps Fatty could chime in. That said, if you're trying to make the point that Harley had an awesome weapon to aim at the "youth" market with Buell, I fully agree. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
The peak of the bell curve continues to move to the older end of the graph. Can you illustrate this for the past 25 years or so? | ||
| Prof_stack |
Since selling the XB9S I went smaller and lighter, to a couple of 750 Guzzis and now on a new Royal Enfield (photos in the Thumper/Blastphemy section). I'm over 55 and prefer a lighter weight, less-powered, lower seat motorcycle. If HD could take some pig-weight off the 883 and move the pegs back and in a little, I would enjoy buying and riding another Sporty (I had the first Evo XLH883, in 1986). But I fear my "old man" needs are nowhere in their marketing strategy. I loved the Electra-Glide I rode for 14 years, but have no interest in going there again. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Doubtful you or I'd have done it much differently had we been at the controls during the boom years, eh? Maybe. Maybe not. What are the default rates on other makes compared to HD? Someone reading this stat without putting much thought into it would assume that Harley's present woes are a direct result of a shrinking customer base that is not constantly being refreshed by new (albeit old-ish) customers. You see many 47-55 year olds entering motorcycle ownership who have NEVER ridden before or owned a motorcycle? That hasn't been my experience seeing the participants in the Rider's Edge course. The average age of a BMW buyer is 53. How do you see BMW's marketing strategy working to change that demographic? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Can you illustrate this for the past 25 years or so? In 1984, the average age was 34. In 1994, the average age was 39. In 2004, the average age was 45. In 2008, the average age was 47. http://www.jiffynotes.com/a_study_guides/book_note s_add/emmc_0001_0001_0/emmc_0001_0001_0_00128.html http://investor.harley-davidson.com/demographics.c fm (Message edited by ft_bstrd on September 28, 2010) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Young riders? Well, I think the Sportster is still a strong seller in this market; perhaps Fatty could chime in. The number one seller is the touring line particularly the Ultra Classics and Street Glides. Heritage would be next Cruisers like the Dynas were soft sellers We had a glut of Sportsters for a long time. The XR1200s sat around forever. I was told by the sales manager we probably wouldn't be ordering one without a deposit on it. The '48's have been selling well. | ||
| Kc10_fe |
Looking around my flying units and the union halls parking lot these days has me seeing more and more of these: http://www.suzukicycles.com/en/Product%20Lines/Cyc les/Products/Boulevard%20M90/2009/M90.aspx With a base price of $11K its hard to argue. Ive been flying in the AF for almost 14 years and I can honestly say Ive never seen a 883 or 1200 sporty in any USAF parking lot. Road Kings & Glides, sure theres a few of them and other bagger models. 600Rs and liter bikes are everywhere. This younger crowd you speak of here with some aviators disposable income isnt even thinking of HD. Trying to shoot the shit about sportbikes with the crappy tated idiot looking bearded dudes at the local HD stealership is whats keeps plenty of folks away. The parts guy here told me to my face that the 1200 would dust any Buell and its winning races to prove it. WTF? I guess its fair to say we are the fast car, fast bike, fast women, cold beer and big tata types. That being said riding a souped up almost 600lb sporty on roids is like riding a 250 Vespa with a fat chick on the back. Either one will result in you losing your man card or a serious cool point deduction. The guys that like my R are the Duc or NESBA folk that again still think of HD as an oil leaking AMF throwback. HD is stale like a week old bagel. Why on this earth would someone with the money buy a 1200 anything for $12k+ when you can get a S100RR for $1500 more? HD failed even its attempts overseas to attract us. I did buy a Softail my first time visiting BIAP in 03 from a catalog. After throwing almost $5K at it I had a bike I was proud to own. I visited the HD outlets on bases in Germany close to 100 times in the past 16 years. All baggers on the floor. Then came the VRod. I never recall seeing a Buell on the floor. There was a poster on the wall! (Message edited by kc10_fe on September 28, 2010) | ||
| 86129squids |
I wanna have lunch with my old teach, Dr. Reisenstein- he had some great marketing classes. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
What are the default rates on other makes compared to HD? Don't know, don't really care. Besides, you'll pop up a colorful graph and show me as soon as you wake up and the coffee kicks in. You see many 47-55 year olds entering motorcycle ownership who have NEVER ridden before or owned a motorcycle? By "new" I meant new to Harley. The average age of a BMW buyer is 53. How do you see BMW's marketing strategy working to change that demographic? All due props to BMW - they've been quite bullish. IMO they make some of the ugliest motorcycles in the world, but they're on a tear nonetheless. I hope Harley rises to the challenge put forth by BMW, Victory, et al. and continues to improve, refine, and innovate. In 1984, the average age was 34. In 1994, the average age was 39. In 2004, the average age was 45. In 2008, the average age was 47. To what would you attribute this trend? The number one seller is the touring line particularly the Ultra Classics and Street Glides. And yet I continually hear the pundits bemoaning Harley's lack of vision when it comes to catering to their core market. Interesting. The '48's have been selling well. To what age demographic? Youthful, perhaps?? | ||
| Johntman |
Here is my opinion... I am 29 years old, and I am looking for performance out of my motorcycle. To me my bike is my big boy toy, it's my "sports car". A sport performance bike can hang with 70k+ sports cars for a fraction of the cost, and that's how I ride them. Sure I could buy a race replica for all of the performance, but it doesn't make a good street bike, when I could get a ticket in a 65 mph zone in 1st gear, it wouldn't be much fun to ride. I'm looking for a good street bike, light, nimble, handles well, and has good power, hence the reason I'm on a Buell. Harley did have a bike at one time I was looking to buy. It was the V-Rod Street Rod. All though I thought it was a little over priced and over weight, I was close to pulling the trigger on one when I sold my M2. The bike just looked like fun! The salesman at the shop I guess didn't want to sell a bike. The bike didn't fit their "style" I guess so they didn't know anything about them and tried to point you in a different direction, just as they did when you went in to look at a Buell, so I ended up on another Buell. I know I don't fit in with the "Harley" group. I've been to the H.O.G. meetings, and went on some of the rides. It just wasn't me. So bottom line is if Harley is trying to sell me a bike... They lost me for now. Not saying they couldn't win me back, but they've got to add something to their line up. If I want to pack up and take a long road trip, I take the car. I can fit all my stuff in there, travel comfortably, and enjoy my self when I get there. So I'm not looking for a big cruiser, which seems to be all they are making, because all of their so called "sport bikes" are overweight, under powered, and over priced compared to the competition, and that is just my opinion, your's may vary. | ||
| Court |
The problems that would concern me, and that seem to have Wall Street watching, at Harley-Davidson have nearly nothing to do with motorcycles. The product is the victim, not the cause, of some of their current lament. Ask yourself what sort of corporate culture enables a couple rouge executives to convince a group to buy a bankrupt company for $109,000,000 . . . . what mindset sees "economy" as simply closing factories and eliminating jobs while ignoring opportunities to increase the efficiency of those assets, why have the "seasoned" (Jon Flickinger and Gail Leone) execs not only quit, but walked out in disgust with something like 3 days notice. To truly appreciate what's happening it's illuminating to talk to one of the folks in the middle management, $150,000/yr range, who is having to "act chromy" during the day and go home and try to console their wives that they'll continue to have a job as HD spouts about cutting several hundred more management jobs . . .and assure their kids they won't be moving. I wish them no ill will but they have sure gone to extraordinary lengths to alienate the very folks who could turn their ship around. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Watch "in for a penny, in for a pound" Buffett. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Court, salient points all. And, in a roundabout way, you've reinforced my position that Harley's "dilemma" right now has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of their motorcycles (as many here insist) or depth and focus (or lack thereof) of their offerings (as many here insist), nor anything to do with their aging demographic (as many here insist). BTW, 47 doesn't seem very old from my perspective... | ||
| Rainman |
If HD wants to build me a 100 hp, 400lb, 4 or 5 gallon-tank sport touring Sportster with 29 to 30 inch seat height and decent wind protection and good hard bags, I'll buy it for $12K. I wouldn't mind a Road King, but I don't have $16K. | ||
| Court |
I'm sure Harley-Davidson is •••••• up. I'm not sure about their bikes . . as I lost interest years ago. That may be part of their problem is that the folks in my (57 years old) age group who, at one time in our life, wouldn't DREAM of owning anything BUT a Harley-Davidson don't even have it on our short list any longer. They don't make a competent sport bike. They are well down on the touring bike list. They sole category they retain any interest in is something called "cruiser" which is a term they brought into being to describe a bike that does lots of things adequately, nothing great, is noisier than it needs to be and cost a boat load of money. Don't get me wrong . . . if I were in the market for a cruiser . . . I'd have another FLH, likely the best HD I ever owned, but when I look at that price tag, in concert with how pissed off I know the folks who are building them are, it simply doesn't move my meter. Their spiral wasn't started by bikes, won't be saved by bikes. It'll take a sea change in attitude. Unbelievable how much they have pissed off and alienated the folks who work for them. Off to ride . . . gorgeous fall day in NYC. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
47 ISN'T old. It's what that 47 represents from a marketing standpoint. | ||
| Sifo |
Court, salient points all. And, in a roundabout way, you've reinforced my position that Harley's "dilemma" right now has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of their motorcycles (as many here insist) or depth and focus (or lack thereof) of their offerings (as many here insist), nor anything to do with their aging demographic (as many here insist). BTW, 47 doesn't seem very old from my perspective... I agree that quality isn't the problem. Both the '03 Wide Glide and '07 Sporty have been absolutely trouble free for me. I don't mean to complain about my Buell, but I can't say that about my Buell. I would still hop on it and ride it cross country without a second thought. HD has gone to great lengths to not upset the apple cart on their styling. I think this has actually lead to some of their problems. A casual look reveals a bike that looks extremely close to a bike from the '50s. What the casual observer doesn't see is that everything hidden by that retro styling has been updated. My '03 Wide Glide would absolutely smoke my brother's '89 model. It wasn't even close. My brother wouldn't even believe it until I finally had to show him the reality of it. Throw in some of the feature of the new touring models, with fly by wire throttle and one of the best cruise control system on the market, and a stereo blasting out your favorite tunes, they really are well engineered in many respects. The perception they give to the uninformed is being a modern antique though. This focus on heritage has been a big part of the marketing for many years now, and IMO is part of the problem. Take Victory for example, competing in the same market. They have a number of very traditional looking bikes. They also have a few bikes, that look like something George Jetson would ride. It doesn't matter if you like the George Jetson look or not. The simple fact is that it demonstrates that as a company they are innovating. This is very much in contrast of what HD has done with their image. OK so HD is having success with a couple of Sportster models, pretty much the Nightster, and now the 48. These are both throwback styling from the current Sporty line. That is a very niche market. Nothing wrong with being successful in a niche, but it's not something that a company the size of HD can really be expected to build a new customer base on. It also remains to be seen if these bike will have any staying power over the years. As they become a commonly seen bike, I'm not sure if they will continue to sell. Time will tell on that point though. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
HD has gone to great lengths to not upset the apple cart on their styling. Well, mostly agree. Their attempts at breaking the molds once in a while (V-Rod, for example) haven't exactly set the world on fire. On the other hand, the continually refined and updated "retro" look since their buyout from AMF garnered them 25 years of record-setting profits. Hard to argue against that kind of long-term success in a marketing meeting, eh? I'm glad to see Victory doing so well - the competition will either strengthen Harley, or do them in. As a long-time Harley-Davidson fan (30+ years), I'm hoping for the former. PS: It also remains to be seen if these bike will have any staying power over the years. Isn't the Sportster the longest-running motorcycle model in the history of the sport? |
