| Author | Message | ||
     Kc10_fe |
LCDR Scott Speicher was flying an F/A-18 Hornet fighter when he was shot down 100 miles west of Baghdad, on the night of January 17, 1991, the first night of Operation Desert Storm.[1][2] His plane crashed in a remote, uninhabited wasteland[2] known as Tulul ad Dulaym 331435.81N 422118.14E / 33.2432806N 42.3550389E / 33.2432806; 42.3550389.[6] He was the first combat casualty for American forces in the war.[2] The U.S. Navy maintained in a 1997 document that Speicher was downed by a surface-to-air missile.[7] However, an unclassified summary of a 2001 CIA report suggests that Speicher's aircraft was shot down by a missile fired from an Iraqi aircraft,[6] most likely a MiG-25,[2] flown by Lt. Zuhair Dawood, 84th squadron of the IQAF.[8] Speicher was at 28,000 feet and travelling at 0.92 Mach (540 Knots) when the front of the aircraft suffered a catastrophic event. The impact from the R-40 missile threw the aircraft laterally off its flight path between fifty and sixty degrees with a resulting 6 g minimum load.[6] A pilot on the same mission stated: "I'm telling you right now, don't believe what you're being told. It was that MiG that shot Spike down." [9] As far as WMD goes they had it and used them (blood agent) on its own Kurdish population killing around 5000. Arm chair quarterback this shit all you want. Iraq goes from quiet and peaceful to total shit storm in seconds. And yes they were firing at coalition aircraft in 2003. | ||
| Kc10_fe |
http://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/rr/CENTCOM%20Re gulation%20CCR%2025210/Forms/AllItems.aspx?RootFol der=/sites/foia/rr/CENTCOM%20Regulation%20CCR%2025 210/Death%20of%20Reuters%20Journalists&FolderCTID= &View=%7B41BA1AAF-785A-481A-A630-12470AFCD6FD%7D Heres the official report (Message edited by kc10_fe on April 09, 2010) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Iraq has never been all quiet, the guard has been at an internal war, a war with Iran, or with neighboring countries since the 60s. Hell we would supply Iraq and Iran just to provide a good arena for weapons function testing. There is US / Soviet equipment on both sides of the Iraq/Iran border because at the time we SOLD it to them. And if you really wanted to get serious about terrorist f*cks, you would hit the dome of the rock, nail Mecca, Level Medina, raize the poppy fields with napalm, and then bribe the Pope to declare another crusade. Anything else is just pissing in an ocean thinking your are doing something to affect the global temperature. | ||
| Pwnzor |
cityx....  | ||
| Dmmblaze |
Good points Cityxslicker. A more direct way to get through to some of these liberal despisers that this war is a big charade and you don't have to be a liberal to know it. The war in Iraq is about money, it is not about freedom nor our safety. It has been costing the lives of far to many courageous Americans that didn't have a choice but to go over and die for our Halliburton's and huge government contractors making billions on top of billions in profit off of this criminally enacted war. Like city said, there has always been conflict there. Why do we keep subjecting our troops to it? Oil... plain and simple. It is not about freedom for the Iraqi people. It was not about WMD we knew they didn't have through countless CIA operations and sanctioned weapons inspections that had been going on since the first Iraq war we waged and won. They were an occupied nation since the end of Desert storm who occasionally would fire up signs of their discontent and make it hard for weapons inspectors to gain access to places we viewed through satellites and countless spy planes . Hardly a reason to justify a full scale invasion unless of course your main reason is to make money and better control the vast oil reserves there. The only reason why we have been interested in the area for so long, OIL. All this freedom crap is just that. CRAP. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. We can not subject nations to Democracy by force. I mean the sheer notion of it is so crazy that it makes me question the sanity of people who say we are doing the Iraqi people this great service. Where does it end? Should we take over China due to their horrible civil rights and lack of Democracy? Our biggest trade partner? Should we attack Iran, Sudan, Syria, Cuba, North Korea and other nations we know harbor terrorists? Some have worse track records then Iraq, oh but they don't have as much oil. How about Pakistan, our ally. They are a strong hold for al-qaeda so let's invade them. It would have been smarter then taking over Iraq who has had no proven ties to al-qaeda, though still stupid. How about Russia who is supplying Iran with Nuclear technology? Iran, who we know supports al-qaeda, gets tons of support from Russia. Does that make Russia a good target to wage war with? Let us just bomb the hell out of all of the terrorist bastards and supporters who may be making it easier for al-qaeda to attack us again. All these nations had a way better chance then Iraq of harboring WMD that could be used on our soil back before the start of the second Iraq war. It is time to bomb them all....(my bombing comments are being said facetiously, world war and nuclear genocide is not the answer for our nations security) I am not a liberal btw. Nor am I a conservative. Such simplistic and yet all encompassing labels (for narrow minded people anyway) only seem to divide these days, which is not something our country needs in this time of war and depression. United we stand, divided we fall hey. To bad politics have become all about dividing with only two sides to pick from and they both suck. Major reform is needed and I think it starts with people showing more respect to opposing ideas while realizing a lot of politics is outright lies from both sides. As to Scott Speicher, RIP. That was during the first war in Iraq so I am not sure why he keeps being brought up. I think the names of over 4,000 troops who have died in the current engagement would be more poignant. Though if they all were brought up in the honor and depth they deserve badweb might have to expand it's capacity tenfold. | ||
| P_squared |
It has been costing the lives of far to many courageous Americans that didn't have a choice but to go over and die for our Halliburton's and huge government contractors making billions on top of billions in profit off of this criminally enacted war. The U.S. military is an all volunteer force, so to say didnt have a choice is being a bit deceitful or ignorant on your part. Which is it? While I dont like seeing the best of our nation bleeding, to imply they never had a choice is a bit demeaning to them. Oil... plain and simple. It is not about freedom for the Iraqi people. It was not about WMD we knew they didn't have through countless CIA operations and sanctioned weapons inspections that had been going on since the first Iraq war we waged and won. If it was about oil & nothing else, then why are folks expecting to pay $4+ per gallon at the pump this summer? Doesnt make sense to me, but Im sure you can explain it to all of us? They were an occupied nation since the end of Desert storm who occasionally would fire up signs of their discontent and make it hard for weapons inspectors to gain access to places we viewed through satellites and countless spy planes . Iraq was an occupied nation? Really? So you mean to tell me it was UN/NATO/Friendly troops at the border that night in 96 when my buddies & I were driving through the countryside of Kuwait? Or maybe the radar locks on the AV-8Bs patrolling the southern no-fly zone were just imaginary every time I was there as part of a MEU(SOC)? All this freedom crap is just that. CRAP. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Remind me again on the actions this Nation has taken after ending hostilities with foreign nations in our past? Ill help you a little bit, think of Japan. We helped them rebuild & become stable. Im sure Im misguided, but it seems to me to be a decent & human thing to do. Contrary to the revisionists of the left, its not Imperialism as we stopped at state #50 a while back & havent added on since. I'll stop there for now. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Japan, Germany, France, Belgium, Italy, Poland, Philippines, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq. These nations + US intervention = Free and democratic people. You might believe it's crap, but I'm pretty damn sure the folks in these nations don't feel that way. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Yah, freedom is total crap so when u post two meny werds i cnt fokus n my speling goze all waky. (Message edited by pwnzor on April 09, 2010) | ||
| Dmmblaze |
A volunteer force that was lied to P_squared. Our whole nation was lied to. But I guess it's unpatriotic to say that because a republican president enacted this war that has no end in sight. Bush said, 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'. Maybe I am the minority here, but I don't want our president saying God told him to go to war. Don't stupid Islamic terrorists use God to justify their despicable actions? Now we have a democratic administration and all these people that can't stand the idea of a republican administration lying to us say everything Obama is pushing is based on lies. I guess Rush said so, so.. there ya go.... gotta hav sombody too believee in hey Pawnzor... I never said the war was meant to drop the price of oil. I said it was about money. Why lower the price when oil has such a captive market? When the war makes it easier to justify raising the price of gasoline to a captive nation addicted to the pump? But that's the free market at work right FtB? All our allies in the war went based on our misleading information FtBas. Mainly WMD's that were conjured up by Bush and his talks to God. Without that they never would have joined us. I am not going to down play the atrocities of the monster saddam and his regime. But come on, after the first war they were basically a conquered nation. The threat he posed to our country was very limited compared to many other nations. But I guess all of you who supported the war in Iraq and continue to do so would love to go to war with Iran, Syria, Cuba, North Korea and all the other terrorist nations that threaten us more then Iraq ever did with a hog tied Saddam at the helm. If our country was so interested in intervention to enact Free and democratic nations FtB then we would have invaded Darfur long ago to stop the genocide there. Sudan, a country which still makes Iraq look like a utopia under Saddam. I guess God told Bush there is no oil there... | ||
| Dmmblaze |
Oh, and sorry bout my spellin Pawn. I no how very much it upset ur sensibilities. Now that Im done workin overtime Grave yard shifts I should be back to my spellin bee selve in nos time.... errr, then again.. lack a seep mays have me tinkin my spellin b better then it really is...dizam... sorry pawny | ||
| Xb12xmike |
oh boy,....  | ||
| Pwnzor |
No worries, dimblaze... I understand. It's part of the New Way.  | ||
| P_squared |
A volunteer force that was lied to P_squared. You didnt answer the question. Let me ask again, to say didnt have a choice is being a bit deceitful or ignorant on your part. Which is it? Or do you now mean to say that your choice of words werent what you really meant and I took them out of context? Or are you just attempting to shift/change the topic since I asked and you dont have a good answer? Our whole nation was lied to What lie or lies specifically? I never said the war was meant to drop the price of oil. I said it was about money. So then wheres the money? Who can you show is unfairly profiting by the blood of our service members and getting away with it? Facts, not propaganda please. All our allies in the war went based on our misleading information FtBas. Mainly WMD's that were conjured up by Bush and his talks to God. Do we really need to go down the WMD road, or are you really just that nave? http://www.nysun.com/foreign/iraqs-wmd-secreted-in -syria-sada-says/26514/ http://www.worldthreats.com/?p=927 http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/ 3/2/230625.shtml But come on, after the first war they were basically a conquered nation. The threat he posed to our country was very limited compared to many other nations. And you base this assessment on what exactly? Have you had friends patrolling no-fly zones and realize they have a ground radar attached to a SAM locked onto them? Their WMD (Bio & Chem mostly) program was ready to go at pretty much anytime. Thats not a threat? But I guess all of you who supported the war in Iraq and continue to do so would love to go to war with Iran, Syria, Cuba, North Korea and all the other terrorist nations that threaten us more then Iraq ever did with a hog tied Saddam at the helm. I cant speak for everyone, but as someone whos job at 1 time was to get shot at, I can tell you I abhor war more than most. However, Im also intelligent enough to realize that sometimes, rough men have to be ready, able & willing to keep the sheep safe from the wolves. When a countrys leader publicly states, repeatedly, that they wish to attack our country, and there is reasonable belief that they have access to WMDs, I tend to want to err on the side of caution & remove the threat. But thats just me. Irans time is coming, especially if they keep training AQ & Tali goat rapers on IEDs, etc. Syria hasnt acted overtly in quite some time, so Im good with launching the occasional tomahawk at them to keep them in line. Cuba? Unless they try to put silos/bombers there again, not really worried. NK? Weve got ~30k+ troops sitting on the DMZ now and more waiting close by. Heres a newsflash for you, the Korean War hasnt ended. If our country was so interested in intervention to enact Free and democratic nations FtB then we would have invaded Darfur long ago to stop the genocide there. Sudan, a country which still makes Iraq look like a utopia under Saddam. I guess God told Bush there is no oil there... Or maybe because their leaders didnt actually threaten to attack our country while having access & a track record of using WMDs? 1st we catch $h!t for Imperialism then we catch $h!t for not being the worlds police. You cant have it both ways, so which is it? (Message edited by p_squared on April 09, 2010) | ||
| P_squared |
Just because I love when the Left cries, "Bush lied, people died" And who can resist the words of the Global Alarmist in Chief: | ||
| Skinstains |
"GETT'N SOME"} | ||
| Dmmblaze |
Come on P_squared. Isn't your question obviously answered by common sense? If you don't listen to your superiors in the armed forces you can get a court martial right? Are you telling me anyone in the military that didn't want to go to Iraq didn't have to go? They could just say, f u Bush you crazy mo fo, I am not going to fight a war based on lies and your supposed talk to God? You support the war based on your reasonable belief Iraq had WMD's you say... Well at least your admitting it. It was based on belief in your commander and cheif. Not any facts. Or do you have some facts beyond your belief's you would care to share? When did Saddam threaten to attack our nation? What are you talking about? The war was a pre emptive strike (supposedly based on facts) to confiscate Iraq's MIA WMD's. Now your saying it was a belief P.sq? Bush and his war hawks misled the American people on the level of threat Iraq imposed. This is not hard to believe, is it? Your links prove nothing, they are all written after the fact and with highly questionable sources. To believe everything (if anything) they say would be pretty naive... You go to war based on facts you have on hand, but I guess when you didn't have those to begin with you will look for anything after the fact to try and justify a war your now saying was based on belief since you have no facts. Hmm where is the money.. that is a good question. I am sure you can agree the war has not been cheap. To think the billions upon billions spent on no bid contracts to private companies (we will go over a trillion soon) have not enriched many already rich enterprises that supported Bush is also naive. War is a big business, and when you can make average Americans pay for it while shoveling em crap in return what is there to lose? Besides your soul (maybe bush mistook the the devil for god in his visions) as our brothers and sisters die fighting a war that never should have been started in the first place when you consider the FACTS, not beliefs. War is great at transferring wealth, from the American tax payers to the many great private companies like Halliburton (Cheney's company right?) that continue to receive no bid contracts fattening their coffers. This is not propaganda, it is common knowledge. As to your news flash that the Korean war hasn't ended. An Armistice was signed on July 27, 1953 saying all fighting would stop. I think that means the Korean war is over... | ||
| Dmmblaze |
And yes, I know the Korean war hasn't formally ended. But it is over. | ||
| P_squared |
Come on P_squared. Isn't your question obviously answered by common sense? If you don't listen to your superiors in the armed forces you can get a court martial right? Are you telling me anyone in the military that didn't want to go to Iraq didn't have to go? They could just say, f u Bush you crazy mo fo, I am not going to fight a war based on lies and your supposed talk to God? You mean the military is full of conscripts who didnt volunteer? You mean every servicemember who took an oath to obey the lawful orders of those appointed over them voluntarily didnt stop to think for 1 second that maybe someday theyd have to go to an armpit where people are trying to kill them? Stop trying to dance & answer the question. You support the war based on your reasonable belief Iraq had WMD's you say... Well at least your admitting it. It was based on belief in your commander and cheif. Not any facts. Or do you have some facts beyond your belief's you would care to share? Guess you missed the 3 links & 2 youtube videos posted? Seems Bush wasnt the only pol who believed it. Now where would they have gotten that belief from before he was even elected? Maybe those same intel briefings they were getting before he showed up? Perish the thought. When did Saddam threaten to attack our nation? What are you talking about? The war was a pre emptive strike (supposedly based on facts) to confiscate Iraq's MIA WMD's. Now your saying it was a belief P.sq? Bush and his war hawks misled the American people on the level of threat Iraq imposed. This is not hard to believe, is it? I guess his overt assistance to such groups as Ansar al-Islam & Komala Islami Kurdistan dont count? I have no problems believing it, since it came out of everyones mouth until the revisionist history began.
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct. 10, 2002. http://www.reasons-for-war-with-iraq.info/ Your links prove nothing, they are all written after the fact and with highly questionable sources. To believe everything (if anything) they say would be pretty naive... You go to war based on facts you have on hand, but I guess when you didn't have those to begin with you will look for anything after the fact to try and justify a war your now saying was based on belief since you have no facts.
Yup, and sometimes intel sucks and sometimes it doesnt. But if youre going to blame Bush & call him a liar, you should extend that courtesy to the folks who saw things the same as him before he was put in charge. As for my links prove nothing at least Im providing something other than hot air escaping onto the keyboard. What have you got? If were going to talk facts, Im ready for you to start providing some. Anytime. Lets see em. Hmm where is the money.. that is a good question. I am sure you can agree the war has not been cheap. To think the billions upon billions spent on no bid contracts to private companies (we will go over a trillion soon) have not enriched many already rich enterprises that supported Bush is also naive. War is a big business, and when you can make average Americans pay for it while shoveling em crap in return what is there to lose? Besides your soul (maybe bush mistook the the devil for god in his visions) as our brothers and sisters die fighting a war that never should have been started in the first place when you consider the FACTS, not beliefs. Agreed that war isnt cheap. Not if you want your side to have the best training & equipment you can give them. As a point of clarification, its YOUR belief that the war shouldnt have been started based on YOUR facts which you havent provided yet. War is great at transferring wealth, from the American tax payers to the many great private companies like Halliburton (Cheney's company right?) that continue to receive no bid contracts fattening their coffers. This is not propaganda, it is common knowledge. You seem to have a problem with Halliburton & no bid contracts? Can you give some FACTS on where they shouldnt have been awarded a contract or provided services under contract that were done below standard and got away with it? Im sure it should be easy for you to come up with those FACTS most ricky tick, right? As to your news flash that the Korean war hasn't ended. An Armistice was signed on July 27, 1953 saying all fighting would stop. I think that means the Korean war is over... Are you really dense, or just not all together upstairs? A cease fire is not an end to a declared war. Go peruse the rulebook (Hague conventions & Law of Land Warfare), Ill wait for you. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Korea aint over, they were rattling sabers and pissing in the wind with each other just two weeks ago Seems somebody got a boat sunk, seems they blamed the other guy.... http://www.prisonplanet.com/possibility-korean-boa t-sunk-by-own-explosives.html | ||
| Reepicheep |
I still don't get it. I was sitting in a hotel room in Mukawongo (however the heck you spell it) Wisconsin (right across the street from a really nice GE Medical Systems facility). I watched Bush's announcement. What I heard was "They claim they have weapons of mass destruction and that they will use them. They agreed during the last surrender to let us come in and verify they don't at any time. We haven't been able to prove they don't have them or won't use them." Made perfect sense to me. Once you tell me you are going to kill me, I'm going to assume you will until I can prove you can't. The lesson here isn't that I'm an evil lying aggressor... the lesson here is that a person or nation ought not to threaten to kill anyone (or everyone), and that once they do, things will probably go pretty badly for everyone. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Why isn't Obama taking up the just cause of Darfur? Surely if the reasons for going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan were purely economic, the pure and just Obama administration would take up the cause of Darfur while winding down Iraq and Afghanistan. All parties who went to war in Iraq went with the same information. Both the British and US governments conducted independent reviews of the information and found that the data had not been "sexed up" or manipulated. There is a profound difference between being "misled" and going to war based on information that hasn't yet been proven. You may claim that "Bush Lied, people died", but it simply isn't true. War is great at transferring wealth, from the American tax payers to the many great private companies like Halliburton (Cheney's company right?) that continue to receive no bid contracts fattening their coffers. This is not propaganda, it is common knowledge. Ok, that is just hilarious. Please think through your statements before posting them. The largest portion of the tax base (not already directed to entitlement programs) is the top wage earners and corporations. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/backg round/numbers/revenue.cfm http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-ho useholds-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1 So they bilked those who pay 90% of all the taxes in order to funnel funds back into their hands so that they could tax them again? The bottom 50% of the population had no skin in the game with regard to ANY war in Iraq and the bottom 40% actually profited (received more in tax credits than they paid) during the same time. So if you are going to bring up this point at least be consistent. If the wealthy want to go to war with their money, what the hell does it matter to the bottom 50%? | ||
| Slaughter |
One of the BEST QUOTES EVER: When Dick Rutan was in a press conference after the Voyager 'round-the-world flight, was asked by an OBVIOUSLY left-leaning reporter about his involvement in Operation Misty in Veet-Nam - and wasn't that where he was calling in air strikes on civilian targets? He tried explaining (instead of just asking for NEXT question) - and she kept at him until he (very disgustedly) gave up arguing and said: "F**K them, that's what they get for living on the ground." | ||
| Reindog |
From FMJ: "C'mon and get some!" Read "Dispatches" by Michael Herr. It reads like you are smoking Thai sticks during the Siege of Khe Sanh. He cowrote the screenplay for FMJ and contributed to the narration of "Apocalypse Now". War is very bad business and sometimes the tornado takes everything. The Hate Americazoids can't grasp this and only end of hating their country even more when Wikileaks spins this as propaganda. | ||
| Dmmblaze |
touche Ft.Bd. The tax situation in America is beyond f'ed up. A transfer of wealth is not all about peoples bank account though. It is about quality of life too. The war has affected the average American in a detrimental way in that regard. All the money spent on this morally wrong war means there is less money to spend on programs that actually benefit the average American. Can you agree to that? How has this war benefited the American People? | ||
| Dmmblaze |
I agree Reindog. War is a very bad business for most of America. However, for some, it is a huge cash cow. Think of pot holes. They suck for most people. But if you have tire and auto shop...well... are they not good for business? The war in Iraq has been filling phantom pot holes since its inception and you can't tell me certain people and entities are not profiting immensely. | ||
| Xb12xmike |
I hate these hindsight arguments. Useless. Gee, I wonder what might have happened if we did nothing about S.H. in 1991 when he invaded Kuwait? He had plans to invade Saudi too. Also was developing longer range missiles. But,.. we stopped him and kept him under wraps for 12 freakin years all the while he was deliberately NOT complying with the U.N. Resolutions. Also shooting at out planes in he no fly zone etc. etc. Why didn't he just comply?? If 9-11 did not happen, we would have still eventually liberated Iraq. It would be the moral thing to do. | ||
| Xb12xmike |
Wait,..so now you think there are evil little trolls going around making potholes?? Just because someone profits from something.. does that make it wrong? | ||
| Reindog |
"Can you agree to that"? You are using a poor debating tactic which is akin to techniques used by car salesman. The proper response to your question is to simply ignore you because your preceding qualifiers are prejudiced. I am too busy to dig up the facts right now and True Patriots (pat. pending) like Fatty will put your statements in perspective. The cost of Iraq War 1.5 is probably minuscule in comparison to the debt burden being placed on our children by the Socialists in Washington who are destroying America as we blurble here on Badweb. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
touche Ft.Bd. The tax situation in America is beyond f'ed up. A transfer of wealth is not all about peoples bank account though. It is about quality of life too. The war has affected the average American in a detrimental way in that regard. All the money spent on this morally wrong war means there is less money to spend on programs that actually benefit the average American. Can you agree to that? How has this war benefited the American People? For over 20 years we opted to take a national position of ignoring the growing Islamic Extremist threat the root of which began and continues within Iran. We ignored this threat through Carter and Reagan, Bush and Clinton. It wasn't until 9/11, and the threat found our shores, did we determine to take offensive action. Anywhere on the planet where Islamic Extremism is fomented should be on our list for underbrush clearing. There are no isolated nations harboring separate Islamic threats. There are simply Islamic threats. In one of my posts, I showed how Iraq was sponsoring terrorism in Palestine. Iran is sponsoring the same terrorism. These are nations which HATED one another working separately toward the same goal. I believe the wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq have made the united states safer. Al Quaeda has been and continues to be severely weakened by continued efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8481079.stm I don't think there could be a better use of taxpayer funds than in the defense of the United States, Article 1, Section 8. What the United States needs isn't another "program that will actually benefit the average American". The bottom 50% pay none of the expense and receive 100% of the "programs". If the bottom 50%'s lives haven't been improved enough already, what is another "program" going to do to help them? What the United States needs is to cut the Federal Budget down to 1/10th it's current size, drop the maximum tax rate to 10% across the board, and get the hell out of the way of the American people. Give the power back to the people. Give the individual the ability to determine their own destiny. I am not being inflammatory when I say this, but both the Islamic Extremists and the Obama Administration seek the same outcome, tyranny. Islamic Extremists seek to create that tyranny in blood in the name of Allah. The Obama Administration seeks to create that tyranny through the enslavement of benevolence. The end result of the current path is that the recipients will out number the providers. The providers will refuse to provide. The system will collapse under it's own weight. The "program" you advocate might just be the straw that broke the camel's back. | ||
| Reindog |
Wow! Fatty kicked it in less than one minute! |
