| Author | Message | ||
     Ztferrari |
*It's graphic* I still say those Apache pilots have an awesome job. | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
yay i saw this earlier..its really a sad thing...and idk what to say about it, but you cant really fix what happened... and i agree they do have a pretty sweet job Jake | ||
| Geforce |
I'm kinda confused here... what is the point of this? Are you trying to make a point that the AH-64 gunner killed a reporter who was actively participating in an attack against a coalition force? I don't sympathize. ROE states otherwise. The source website you posted as "collateral murder" is trying to make it a point that WE...yes I am active duty... are simply killing civilians. ROE exists for this purpose and the "insurgent" popluation is well informed. These guys did their job the best they could. I'm sorry if this sounds a little rash, but this is the kinda #@!* that gets me fired up. Civilians trying to arm chair quarterback a fire fight. "They ran over the bodies!" "They turned the children over to the IPs and they will get lesser medical care because of it..." - Damned if we do, damned if we don't. I might be taking this the wrong way Z... but this is a bad choice in video due to the "points to be proved" that continually replay. | ||
| Ztferrari |
I reserve judgment to the viewer. My personal opinion is no wrong was done. I am proud to be an American and enjoy watching our countries finest in action. Those field reporters assume they are risking their lives. Yes, there is propaganda attached to the video, but that's exactly what it is - propaganda. Loss of life is always sad, and I feel for those children. What kind of people take kids along to pick up bodies? | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
i will agree with both of you, however i feel like i have been misinformed so the reporters were about to attack OUR troops? Im a wee bit confused fellas could you help me out here? Jake | ||
| Ztferrari |
cameras, guns. details, details...  The truth is, we don't know if they were fired upon or not. But chances are, they weren't - at least by that group that was slaughtered (Message edited by ztferrari on April 05, 2010) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
War is a dirty business. Sometimes friendlies are killed with the bad guys. I can guarantee that NONE of these guys would have opened up on a group like this unless they had reason to do so. They act as though these guys KNEW they were civilians (non-combatants) and opened up on them. | ||
| Geforce |
You have been misinformed. These "reporters" were at SOME point carrying weapons, which they knew better. A convoy had already come JUST under fire and this particular group was trying to move to a different location to avoid detection. It's one thing to carry a camera and stand back and film, quite a different thing to help move weapons/ammo and be "one" with the insurgency. That is why under the ROE they were engaged. The children on the hand, there was no way to know who was in the van. This is what makes our lives so difficult, pulling the trigger on an ROE positive target from an airborne platform in the attempt to prevent exfiltration. The gunner had no idea what was in there except that the vehicle was not an ambulance and was obviously trying to gather weapons and cover up the weapons evidence. This kinda crap happens all the time. More than likely the kids were offered treatment but the local government wanted to take them into care. Again, I cannot confirm this but it has happened before. Rest assured however; those reporters were not abiding by the rules and paid the price. Reuters is now trying to turn this around to make it appear as if coalition forces were simply trigger happy. Money talks in insurgency. I don't think Reuters had the dime to keep the from doing what they did. Imagine Geraldo going out with a coalition patrol and participating in the event... not standing back and filming, but moving weapons and ammo around and aiding the force... at that point he is just as much a combatant as the rest of us. Then again, we are the only force that actually attempts to play by the rules to begin with. | ||
| Ztferrari |
Then again, we are the only force that actually attempts to play by the rules to begin with. Agreed. The pilot mentions they are have been fired at. I highly doubt that the pilot could have mistaken gunfire as anything else. Ok, maybe those people weren't firing at them at the moment. Whatever! We have every right to protect ourselves from any threat. What is done is done, who cares - it's over. I just thought it was a kickass video. I like to think that all of my taxes are spent on ammunition. } | ||
| Xb12xmike |
Were'nt they (reporters) there to take photos and video of the attack they were about to commit? Or maybe they were just reporting on the insurgents and some of the way they operate. They were definately all up to something, looked like they had just done something earlier and/or were just reforming to make another ambush attack. But even though only one had RPG and few others had AK's, They were def all up to no good. I feel bad only for the kids. I Hope they survived. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Our guys kill bad guys good. | ||
| Jetbuilder |
So let me get this straight in WW2 we carpet bombed whole cities and did not blink an eye. Now we get squeemish over a few Civilian casualties. Please Let me tell you a little something about Iraq no one is pure and Innocent No One. We as American Soldiers do more than any other group to ensure Civilians don`t get killed the very same civilians who know and protect the enemy of this country. We will lose this war until we as a country come to grips with the reality of war and what is required to win. that means killing as many of the enemy and those who harbor and protect them. Remember how you all felt on 9/11 oh sorry not supposed to talk about that! | ||
| Pwnzor |
From the Book of Samuel chapter 15, verse 3. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. Nobody can know all the circumstances but those who were present. If the men being killed in that video had chosen a different path, they would not have found themselves at the business end of a gunship. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Maybe they should have been a reporter for the Cannes film festival. Its a war zone. You gonna roll into an area and aim a 1 foot telefoto lense up to take a picture of a 'neet' helicopter... ya damn right you gonna get lit up And to the testiment of the equipment on the Apache, its a digital feed. So you arm chair QBs can blow it up all day long and look at every little detail.... Try being in the air frame spooling a hover in a concentric circle at 150 ft off the deck And kids treated in a military IP forward aid station... nope, you dont want them because when they are 'cured' you now have to detain them. Go read the Law of Landwarfare under the sections about rendering aid. YOu will see that they acted explicitly with in the confines of the Geneva Hague Convention. And if any flight data from any of the ops that we did ever saw the light of day, heads would roll. The shiat from the first Gulf War is still classified. | ||
| Nevrenuf |
although it was hard for me to tell whether it was just a camera or gun. it was obvious that there was a guy poking his head around the corner with an rpg. if being a reporter is what you want to do and hang out in a war zone, you have to know what can happen at any given time. as far as the kids, what kind of father brings his kid into a war zone. | ||
| Ourdee |
I would have lit them all up. War ain't pretty. | ||
| Hootowl |
We did blink an eye. At the start of the war (ww2), the US balked at the notion of bombing civilians. It was not until much later in the war that the US became involved in that. The Germans and English had been doing it for a while. | ||
| Nukeblue |
what a bunch of b.s. they did the right thing | ||
| Rainman |
As a reporter who had friends and colleagues embedded with U.S. forces, I hate to say it, but shit happens. My friends knew they were risking their lives to get the story. So did Ernie Pyle, who was killed by a Jap sniper. A friend who was embedded with a Marine group pinned by Iraqi forces during the first few months of the war agreed to move ammo because, had he not, the Marines may have been overrun and he could be killed. People die in war. People die trying to tell what's happening from every viewpoint. It's a risk. They knew it. They took it. | ||
| Dbird29 |
Reuters is know to have helped alter perception of reality and have inaccurate reporting. http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/21956_Reut ers_Doctoring_Photos_from_Beirut The embedded reporters picked the wrong place to be for the story. I don't trust Reuters to tell the truth about what happened. | ||
| Dmmblaze |
Anybody else think the video looked like a video game? Modern warfare has a mission pretty similar where you blast the enemy from afar while changing to different magnified views as you circle the area. My question is, how far was the helicopter away from the targets? Did the van not see the helicopter that had only minutes before shot up all their gun toting associates? The children seemed to be used as cover, placing them in the front seat. Though I didn't make them out as children till the video pointed it out with arrows. Kinda hard to feel sorry for reporters who would pursue a story at the expense of children. Knowingly using the children and their camera as some kinda shield. While pursuing a story with the armed enemy of the United states as their entourage. Which brings about other questions. The video acts like the US government wanted to suppress what really happened. Yet here are some reporters who are shrouded in mystery. Did Reuters encourage these reporters to make friends with the insurgents? What was the reporters exact assignment? How come a united kingdom (our allies in this war) based news service can't reveal more regarding what these reporters had been up to leading to the time of their death? | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Its common knowledge that our forces sometimes air raid villages and kill civilians. Murtha said it. obama said it and kerry said it. The commander and chief should be pulling troops out any day now. They spent 5+ years talking about it. Im sure it wasnt just for political and demoralizing reasons. | ||
| Babired |
Thanks for posting this I saw a little of the video on CNN this morning and they cut it off in the first few minutes saying the rest was pretty graphic. I try and send the You Tube link to my co-workers and find this video was blocked by my work, but I can see it on Bad WEB  Thank you I'm proud to be born on American soil! | ||
| Court |
In the midst of the current administration's "we apologize for being Americans" mindset and the tremendously embarrassing Courts Martial they are currently subjecting 3 Navy Seals to . . . you'd have a very difficult time convincing me that ANY American Soldier acted with intentional malice toward a civilian. War . . to cite an old quote "is hell". Just as I know I am voluntarily assuming risk when I propel my motorbike at speed, to too a reporter goes to the field of combat fully aware of the risks and possible consequences. It's shame when things like this happen but we are asking young men and women, even with incredible training, to interpret and act on ROE under the most trying of times and circumstances. I'm sure that, like me, each of the Soldiers is truly sorry any innocents were harmed, it is indeed the ugly underbelly of roaming around an active war zone. My thoughts are prayers are with each American Soldier to do their duty and carry out their mission to the best of their ability and to get home safely as soon as possible. | ||
| Ratyson |
My question is, how far was the helicopter away from the targets? The M230 Chain gun has a muzzle velocity of about 2,300 feet per second. My crude method of measurement was counting "one mississippi, two mississippi, three mississippi". It took approximately 3 seconds from hearing the rounds light off, to seeing them impact the ground. So, 3 seconds * 2300 feet/second = 6900 feet or approximately 2300 yards, or approximately 1.3 statute miles away, or approximately 1.15 nautical miles away. Granted that is straight line distance. We would have to know their elevation and angle of attack to determine the actual ground distance. I feel sorry for the kids who were put in harms way by their uncaring parents, and I feel sorry for the gunner who will one day struggle with the fact that he injured, and may have killed a child. That is something he will unfortunately live with the rest of his life. } | ||
| Chrisrogers3 |
From my personal experience (2 years in iraq as a ground recon soldier). I am guessing the chopper was about 3 km away given the optical view and the time to target. We had similar sights on our Bradley (which has a 25mm gun). Regardless.....If anyone wants to split hairs on the distance keep in mind EVEN IF they had an RPG that AH-64 was WELL out of range for an RPG.... Ive been in numerous situations in the past of defending my actions on why myself or my team made the on the ground calls we did, and although I am the first to say that every situation is different and that only those involved can actually recall the situation.....On the other hand, its really difficult for me to watch that video with a mindset for something other than it being completely inexcusable. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Slogans that respective services that I served with had at the time of service. Navy, it’s not just a job, it’s an adventure The Few, The Proud, The Marines Navy Accelerate your Life An Army of One Navy A Force for Global Good Wtf happened between 1986 and 2010? | ||
| Dmmblaze |
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the distance guys. It does seem to change my view of what happened a bit. | ||
| Spank |
Doesn't change mine! Kill 'em all, let God (or Allah) sort them out! | ||
| Hootowl |
Good insights Chris. You speak with more authority than most. Thank you for your service. While the folks in the helo may not have been in danger from an RPG attack from the people they were firing on, they were providing air support for ground units correct? Isn't being able to engage a target while staying out of range of said target the point? Isn't that why we have gunships? I must say the banter is a bit disturbing, but maybe that just how they cope with the fact that they're killing people for a living. I've been in combat, but not like that. I've never pulled the trigger. I don't have any idea what they're going through. I suggest that those who have not, should refrain from criticizing those who have. |
