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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Government land grab of course.

White House land grab


quote:

A secret administration memo has surfaced revealing plans for the federal government to seize more than 10 million acres from Montana to New Mexico, halting job- creating activities like ranching, forestry, mining and energy development. Worse, this land grab would dry up tax revenue that's essential for funding schools, firehouses and community centers.


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Hootowl
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Does the Constitution give the federal government the ability to own land, or is that right reserved by the states?
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Poppinsexz
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Hey the lefties are in charge. This is what we get. Maybe next time we will actually find out some facts instead of all the media lies. But I doubt it.
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Hex
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 02:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Didn't the right just change eminent domain? One hand washes the other...
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 02:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I don't think that there's a constitutional issue in the owning of land. The question is why?


quote:

The 21-page document, marked "Internal Draft-NOT FOR RELEASE," names 14 different lands Mr. Obama could completely close for development by unilaterally designating them as "monuments" under the 1906 Antiquities Act.

It says all kinds of animals would be better off by doing so, like the coyotes, badgers, grouse, chickens and lizards. But giving the chickens more room to roost is no reason for the government to override states' rights.




Taking land for construction of roads and what not is one thing. This sounds very different. This kind of thing gets very personal to me as I'm caught in the middle of a similar situation with about 100 acres in MI with the National Lake Shore project. This has been hanging over us for close to 30 years now. We effectively can't sell it other than to the Government at their low ball offer. Meanwhile a large portion of what they took earlier was sold off to a private developer to build a Golf/Ski resort. We constantly have trespassers on our land who are following maps provided to them by the National Park Service showing our land as park land. It's about as wrong as it gets.
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 02:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Didn't the right just change eminent domain?

Right? There was a case not long ago involving a Democratic congressman who was involved. I think you've got your facts wrong.
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Hex
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 02:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

possibly
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Buellkowski
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 02:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/02/wh ite-house-land-grab/

The quote came from a Washington Times op-ed piece written by Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC). If you're curious, do a little research about the Washington Times and decide for yourself how newsworthy this commentary is.
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Hootowl
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 02:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well, the conservative majority supreme court just recently ruled in favor of taking private property for redistribution to other private individuals. I'd say that was about as wrong as it gets.

I don't think the Federal government should be able to own land, with the exception of military bases, as maintaining a military is in the constitution. Appropriating vast swaths of state owned land for other purposes is not.

All federal park and forest land should be returned to the states. Individual states can continue to give that land park status if they so choose. This isn't hard. The rules have been spelled out for over 200 years.
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Hex
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yup, conservative majority in 2005:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160479,00.html
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 04:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

most republicans have what I call "Bushnesia".
They can't remember the last 8 years before Obama. Like the deficit he ran up. They neglect to tell you the Bush never added the cost of the wars into his budget, whereas Obama has, makeing his higher and REAL.
Everything wrong before was Clinton's fault, and everything now is Obama fault.
There's a bubble surrounding the Bush years. How convenient.
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Macbuell
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 04:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Just like the NY Times is a completely objective newspaper.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

You keep saying that sprink, but I think it's more Bush derangement syndrome.

I (and a ton of "conservatives" like me) think Bush did a good job with a hard and messy problem in response to 9-11, but we were absolutely underwhelmed with nearly everything else he did. From taxes through spending through real liberty... It was better then the democratic alternative, but nowhere near where we hoped a great conservative leader would take us.

Aside from self defense, I would rank Bush about on par with Clinton, who had no integrity, but did an OK job of running the country in a lot of regards.

(Message edited by reepicheep on March 03, 2010)
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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Oh, and for the land grab, states can (and I think Wyoming already has) pre-empt it through congress, but they have to beat the feds to the stroke of the pen.

http://www.arra-access.com/site/PageServer is a great resource for information... From an action alert they sent out earlier today...


quote:


Washington Newsletter
March 2010
Monumental Problem!

A couple of weeks ago, word leaked out about a secret, internal study, ordered by U.S. Secretary of the Interior Salazar, on potential areas that could be declared National Monuments under the Antiquities Act. An Interior Department spokesperson described the list of 17 hot spots as something that came out a brainstorming session held at the department. What a session! Under the Antiquities Act, Mr. Obama could make such a declaration with the simple stroke of his Presidential pen.

Negative reaction on the part of western members of Congress has been swift. Many remembered the creation of eight new National Monuments and the expansion of one existing Monument area, encompassing more than 1.1 million acres, during the closing days of the Clinton Administration. These designations came much to the surprise of many local citizens living in or adjacent to the designated areas. Secretary Salazar has sought to reassure Governors and legislators from the 17 targeted areas that no decisions would be made by the Obama Administration without first seeking local input. This response is reassuring, but we also know from sources within the Department, that once the list saw the light of day, sheer panic reigned in the Department as political appointees worked to come up with an explanation for the report. Damage control was priority number one because of the potential political fallout in the west.

Fortunately, the news of this plan became publicly known before the Secretary was able to send his recommendations to the President. Since this disclosure, legislation has been introduced in the Congress that would exempt certain states from the Antiquities Act: Utah, Montana, Alaska, Colorado, Nevada and California. This exemption would not become effective until Congress passes the appropriate legislation, so the threat remains. Wyoming is currently the only western state to have this exempt status.

For a few days in February, the Interior Department had a monumental problem once they realized their secret document was public. In a democracy, a little sunlight has a way of cleansing the process as well as motivating those who care. The revelation of the Interior Department document has accomplished both. The Department is now treading a bit more carefully and more Americans are now aware that monument designations can happen with the simple application of some Presidential ink on a piece of paper. If you would like to read about the 17 areas identified in the now famous Interior Department brainstorming session, check it out here:

Prospective National Monument Designations
Forest Service Planning Rule

The Forest Service is planning to launch a series of roundtable discussions in many parts of the country on a new planning rule it hopes to develop for the management of our national forests. This is an important undertaking, especially since previous efforts over the last twenty-five years have not been all that successful, primarily due to litigation. The Forest Service is hosting these sessions in order to "facilitate public participation, dialogue, and action collaboration." The ARRA website will provide you with detailed information on where and when these roundtable discussions will be held. To the degree that you and your friends can participate and share your views about how our national forests should be managed, your efforts would be extremely helpful. This is especially true since the Notice of Intent announcing this undertaking barely mentioned the concept of recreation on Forest Service land. We find this a very serious oversight on the part of the agency. So, from a process standpoint, we are very pleased the agency is providing these roundtable sessions. This is something that ARRA specifically requested when we submitted our comments during the scoping process. But from a subject matter, recreation interests, and specifically motorized recreation interests, need to be very proactive throughout this process.

One new issue that deserves your attention is that for the first time ever, the Forest Service is directing its land managers to manage on the basis of climate change issues. This is a rather nebulous issue since the science surrounding the topic of global climate change is very hotly debated. During the last few months, we have seen charges and countercharges over the validity of some of the so-called scientific studies about climate change. Until the controversy can be cleared up (the United Nations has formed a special committee to review the charges that some of the scientific studies weren't all that scientific), it seems premature to throw this requirement into the Forest Service management process.

Over the next twenty months, this planning process will be a topic we will be covering, so pleased keep referring to the ARRA website for the latest information:

USFS Issues Notice of Intent to Issue New Land Management Planning Rule – Click Here to Learn More and to Weigh in to Protect Access
Enforcement Legislation

We readily admit that enforcement legislation is not a popular subject with some people, but ARRA has long believed that a key component to retaining access to public lands is greater law enforcement. That is why we have consistently supported a revision of our enforcement laws including stiffer fines and penalties for those who do not take good care of the lands owned by all Americans.

We are very pleased that Rep. Salazar (D. Colo.) and Senator Mark Udall (D. Colo.) have introduced companion pieces of legislation in the House and the Senate, H.R. 4589 and S. 2999, which would impose stiff penalties on those who are found guilty of damaging federal lands. We have worked closely with both of these offices on this issue and will continue to work for its passage in the Congress. In previous years, this legislation passed the House of Representatives, but the Senate failed to take similar action.

The Bush Administration supported this legislation and we are hopeful that the Obama Administration will do the same. If you would like to learn more about this legislation, please see the Enforcement Legislation Fact Sheet. Also, please contact your elected officials and encourage them to support H.R. 4589 and S. 2999. Our future access to public lands is dependent upon enhanced law enforcement.
Other News

The Recreational Trails Program (RTP) continues to be held hostage by the failure of Congress to resolve funding issues relating to federal transportation programs. The House and the Senate remain at loggerheads in reaching a compromise, so the future of RTP remains up in the air. We will keep you posted as this issue continues to evolve, but we are hoping for a resolution in the very near future. In the meantime, be sure to use the ARRA website to nominate your favorite RTP project for the 2010 Coalition for Recreational Trials award.

Many of you were probably amused when the Washington area received upwards of 40 inches of snow in two successive snowstorms in February. We had real gridlock for a while, not the political kind but rather the kind only Mother Nature could deliver. This is a city that becomes paralyzed by the prediction of 2 inches of snow let alone the actual delivery of more than twenty times that amount. One amusing sight was seeing a snowmobile riding around Dupont Circle while a massive snowball fight by hundreds of Washingtonians was going on at the same time. To say the least, we are weary of winter and are looking forward to the arrival of spring later this month.

Here's to spring!
Sincerely,

Larry E. Smith
Executive Director
Americans for Responsible Recreational Access


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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Oh, and hearing Obama tell me "no decision will be made without your input" means "no decision will be made until you tell me what you think so I can dismiss you as an idiot and pursue my own superior beliefs and values no matter what the cost to you".

You don't have to look any further then the health care debate for that. Why, exactly, do the democrats refuse to include tort reform?
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 04:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

well then reep, you are an exception to the rule. I listen to both fox radio and a progressive station here in Chicago. Believe it or not, MOST of the progressive host aren't really thrilled with Obama. But when I listen to guys like Beck and Savage....holy shit! Bush was a genius and everyone else is the gloom and doom of our great Country.
My point is, from about Nixon forward, ALL Presidents have been fiscally irresponsible. Some just do a better job of lying and covering it up!
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Drkside79
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 04:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Rocket turn on 670 the score and listen to that it will help with the digestion caused by Chicago Political Radio
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Rocketsprink
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 04:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Why should someones life taken or ruined by some moron of a Doctor be limited to $250,000?
Why did ALL Republican Politicians not give 2 shits less about spending and deficits when Bush was President and spending money, hand over fist in the wars, but NOW are concerned about spending? Spending to help people in our own Country, no less?
I think the dickhead from Kentucky is the prime example of the extreme far right.
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Hootowl
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"But when I listen to guys like Beck and Savage....holy shit! Bush was a genius"

Then you don't listen to Beck. He is and was highly critical of Bush.

Beck is a conservative/Libertarian. Bush was neither.
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Hex
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 05:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

To redirect the OP, the first step was a massive power grab by the executive branch.


Rove on Iraq: Without W.M.D. Threat, Bush Wouldn’t Have Gone to War

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/rove -on-iraq-without-w-m-d-threat-bush-wouldnt-have-go ne-to-war/?hp

The comments are too much...


(Message edited by hex on March 03, 2010)
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Buellkowski
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The Antiquities Act authorizes creation of National Monuments on public lands. It does not seize private property for the government. I believe Sen. DeMint's characterization of the memo as a "land grab" and a "seizure" is highly misleading.

(Message edited by buellkowski on March 03, 2010)
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Hootowl
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

State owned land can be leased to oil companies, cattle ranchers, mineral operations, etc. for the benefit of the state. Once it becomes a "national monument" none of those things can occur, and no one gets a say in it.
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Hootowl
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 05:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Do those "public" lands then not fall under federal control? The state no longer owns the land correct?
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Buellkowski
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 05:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

As I read it, National Monument lands were federally owned lands to begin with. They are not appropriated from state governments or private parties. You are correct that National Monument designation restricts the types of activities that may occur on that land, but that's the intent of the Antiquities Act.
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Just_ziptab
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I thought I read somewhere that the state and feds all ready own 33% of the land in USA...........
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Hootowl
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 06:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

But they are not national monument lands. They are being considered for national monument lands, which would transfer ownership from the state to the fed. Am I reading this wrong?
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Buellkowski
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 06:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The lands under consideration are federally owned right now.
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 06:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yup, conservative majority in 2005:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160479,00.html


Facts must really suck when you are a liberal. Did you read the story at all? It's actually a pretty evenly divided court with Stephens being a moderate. In this case Stephens sided with the liberals.

quote:

He was joined in his opinion by other members of the court's liberal wing — David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer, as well as Reagan appointee Justice Anthony Kennedy, in noting that states are free to pass additional protections if they see fit.



It's almost criminal how liberals will look at something, claim it's wrong and blame conservatives, when history shows that it was the liberals doing the wrong in the first place. I really worry about this country with that kind of stupidity going on. I have no doubt that this is the mentality that go BO elected. It is clearly the mentality that kept Ted Kennedy in his Senate seat for decades. Really it is time to pay attention to what's going on and stop the knee-jerk "it's the Republicans fault".

Thanks for looking that up for me though. I was planning on looking it up, as I was just about positive that it was a decision by the Liberal Supreme Court. This way I only had to read it.
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Cowboy
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Land grab is avery sore spot with me.I guess a lot of us have been hurt by this and I dont know when it started. But it was before Bush waS born, 69 yrs a go when Rosevelt was the hooking bull a lot of the members of my family were removed from thier farms and ranches and only paid pennys on the dollar for ther lifes work. They were also promised that one day it would be returned to them you can bet your happy ass that will never happen so dont blame the Republicans The democrats have taken a far larger amount of land than the Republicans have. just go to work and aquire more and hope it dont happen again.
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Sifo
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 06:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

A bit more from Hex's proof of evil conservatives being behind land grabs...


quote:

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The four-member liberal bloc typically has favored greater deference to cities, which historically have used the takings power for urban renewal projects.
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In dissent, O'Connor criticized the majority for abandoning the conservative principle of individual property rights and handing "disproportionate influence and power" to the well-heeled.

"The specter of condemnation hangs over all property," O'Connor wrote. "Nothing is to prevent the state from replacing any Motel 6 with a Ritz-Carlton, any home with a shopping mall, or any farm with a factory."
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