| Author | Message | ||
     Metalrabbit |
Actually Not_purple I don't like it any better than you do. It seems quite bazzar to have that kind of system but I'm just a little cod in the sea. I have no knowledge on how things work outside of the sea. I do know this, if someone offered me a stay outa the "frying pan free" card, I'd probably take it. (Message edited by metalrabbit on January 11, 2010) | ||
| Alchemy |
It seems to me a thread involving religion is essentially about a spiritual pursuit. This may start with a search for meaning. Is our reality completely random or not? Is there meaning in our reality? Meaning would seem to exist in the context of a world view. "World" meaning not the earth but the totality of everything. There are many world views but the more basic ones are the monist view and the dualist view. I tend to the monist view that by my definition holds that both the material world and the spiritual world are linked by human thinking. It is our thinking that bridges the gap between the illusion that we are inherently separate from the full and complete spiritual world. Your thinking can expand your world view beyond the material and beyond the grasp of reductionist science without denying the validity of science itself. Science is an important part of our world without (in some uses) requiring the denial of the spiritual. So, in our thinking about meaning or pursuit of religion we are using our thinking as the starting point - our self awareness and closely followed by our seemingly natural ability to ask questions. So how can we generate a question about something that is not knowable? Think about this. How could we possibly even conceive of a question about something that is vastly beyond our ability to conceive? I think if I have a question then inherent in the act of the question is the suggestion that it is not inconceivable to me and that means that it may be a question that one day can be thought through or answered. So when we say "I", we have consciousness and some degree of self-awareness. A lot can follow from this simple word "I" but it starts with thinking. When our thinking becomes questioning then we are searching for meaning and for some perhaps an ultimate meaning. That question and path can go many directions but each is a path. The way I see a monist world view is that every thought and every question contains within it a spark of the spiritual. When/if one finally embraces the full reality of being a free individual then it gets interesting. I know this does not sound like a typical discussion of religion but for me these very basic starting points are important and are easy to overlook. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I thought the thread was about religion in relation to the U.S. Constitution. | ||
| Metalrabbit |
Well just to stop you from the beginning the "World" in Biblical terms is the stucture that man built with the Evil One involved in it. Those things along with the false religions are the things that are set for destruction in the end times. It is important to mention that the Earth will remain,, with living flesh still on it along with many spiritual beings,, some of them,,us. Jesus Himself will rule,,then you will know for sure WWJD. And if I make it there and it's OK with everybody, I'll bring back Buell for ya,, how 'bout that? (Message edited by metalrabbit on January 11, 2010) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Sin or offense creates a debt. Here is no magical transfer of sin but rather a method of payment of a guilt debt. If I get caught speeding, I am guilty and have a justice "debt". My monetary fine serves to allow me to transfer the guilt from myself. In essence the guilt goes with my money. If the state of Tennessee required the sacrifice of a goat or sheep, the mechanics are the same. The problem is that the solution is temporary and physical rather that spiritual. What if I have no goat? Am I doomed? What if I have a lot of goats? Can I sin more? | ||
| Hex |
I thought the thread was about religion in relation to the U.S. Constitution. I only threw the First Amendment in here as a grounds for civil debate. You are welcome to discourse about anything religious here (or anywhere else for that mater). Carry on. | ||
| Eaton_corners |
How many of you, who talk about other beings or who suppose there is some dreaming giant somewhere, have seen or talked to this being. Jesus is a real person who physically walked on this earth, and the Bible is a very accurate account of that time. It seems that most here are well read. In your reading, have you ever read a Bible? If you have, is there any particular reason to doubt that it is a historical book, that it is about actual events in history. The burden of proof is on the unbeliever. Remember, you can not prove a negative. In other words, you can't prove something does not exist. However, the evidence for a historical Jesus is overwhelming. Which is why I contend that the real question is not whether there is a God, but rather, since there is a God, what do I do about it. Because this thread is so long, and some people may have just started reading without seeing the whole thing, I am going to again post my reading list. The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis Miracles by C.S. Lewis | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
What if I have a lot of goats? Can I sin more? That would depend on how long your boots held out.  | ||
| Cityxslicker |
There is an ant hill on the corner of my back yard. Crawling with activity in the summer. Usually I leave them alone and let them be, until they started to infultrate my bbq pleasure, Chem bomb and irratication. And a chemical ring around the hill. I am sure they thought it some great reconing or apocolypse, if they think at all. taking the symbolism a step further, we are just insects on this hill we call a planet. reminds me of the sand kings. | ||
| Aesquire |
re: Constitution & religion. Since the English system ( our origins, as a culture ) was based on the King as endorsed by God, we select our temporary leaders based on the People's will. That way, when we fire them, we are not condemned to hell. Gotta appreciate that. It would suck to be sinning when you disagree with a politician. IMO when a politician tries to make it a sin, that's a sign. So, no State religion allowed. Excellent. However... the folk that get their panties in a bunch about crosses on memorials deserve the same respect as those who would murder children in God's name. Not that you should shoot them before they protest the WW1 memorial, but absolutely insult them every chance you get, and try to be funny, since self righteousness deserves to be mocked. It may be the only way to destroy it. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Because this is a thread discussing religion I have a question to ask. What do you call someone who believes primarily in the Old Testament but has some reservations about the New Testament? Jewish comments aside. G | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The Constitution doesn't protect nor guarantee freedom FROM religion. If you are "offended", put your big girl panties on and deal with it. | ||
| Eaton_corners |
What surprises a lot of people about the New Testament is that it is a continuation of the Old Testament. Don't forget, Jesus was a Jew, all the disciples were Jewish, Paul the Apostle was a Jew. Christianity is a term coined by people other than Christians as a slam against people who were trying to follow The Christ's example of how to live in harmony with God and others. Christ is the Greek interpretation of the Hebrew word for Messiah, The Chosen One of God. Study the Old Testament closely and you will find that it foretold the coming of Jesus and the events surrounding His life. Most Jews deny that Jesus is the Messiah. In his book The Case for Christ, Lee Strobel looks at the evidence from a journalistic approach to determine if the facts can prove that the story of Jesus' life was true. Edit: Sorry about the Jewish comments. I don't know any other group that discards the New Testament and still retains the Old Testament. (Message edited by Eaton_corners on January 11, 2010) | ||
| Moxnix |
Grumpy, I will rephrase my challenge: Please show me any errors in the Bible. Gregtonn, I was a big fan of the Old Testament for a long time, but to come to terms with Christianity, I started reading the books of the New Testament from BACK to FRONT, skipping the last book because I'm not interested in Eschatology, just preparing for Eschaton, the point where the world ends and the kingdom of God begins. Ramble: To be a Christian, as I understand it, is to be "in" a relationship with the Messiah, not to be "in" a religion. One asks God for forgiveness, one asks Jesus to come into their life. Before the name Christian was begun to be used for the people in the church at Antioch, the "church" was called "the way" or "the key," as they were emulating Christ's lifestyle and evangelized there was no "way" to God except thru Christ. John 14:6 is one place where it is proclaimed Jesus is the way to God, and there's another chapter I can't remember off the top of my head that goes something like: You cannot know the Father and not know the Son, for if you don't know the Son, you don't know the Father. Messianic Jews get it, and I see myself as just another recovering Pharisee and Messianic Gentile. | ||
| Nik |
What do you call someone who believes primarily in the Old Testament but has some reservations about the New Testament? Jewish comments aside. Noahide. Ger is also sometimes used but in modern context means someone who has/will/or is converting to Judaism. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Moxnix, which Bible? it's been rewritten & updated & translated many times over the last couple of thousand years. The writers are all dead most of the translators too, theres not much unassailable corroborative evidence to back any of it up. It's impossible to prove where it's wrong, just as it's impossible to prove that it's all right. Just because a theory or belief can't be disproven doesn't necessarily mean it's true. If you choose to believe what's written in the Bible, that's your entire right & privilege & I'll be the first to wish you joy & happiness from it, & that's sincere, not me being flip. | ||
| Milt |
To that point, I found this book fascinating. http://books.google.com/books?id=kXdXKaJWs2UC&dq=m isquoting+jesus&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=e n&ei=z4RMS_jqBIG4NenIifEM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=r esult&resnum=4&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=fals e | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
That looks like an interesting tome, I'll have to look out for a copy. Thanks. | ||
| Metalrabbit |
You come to God as a child, "You Must be born again", "Without Faith it's Impossible to please Him", "Study to Show Yourself Approved", "Faith comes by Hearing and Hearing By The Word of God". You actually "Prove" it to yourself,, with the help of the Holy Spirit. It requires effort on Your End,, at some point it will hit you and you will say these words,"There's No Way this can be False". I started out with "The Way" bible, went to the "NIV" and my grandmothers King James after she died. Its like you use Craftsman, he use's Snap-On and I like the old Master Mechanic. You can use them all together and even pick-up some Power Tools like Prayer and The Holy Spirit. Without the latter Two your just readin' books. | ||
| Moxnix |
Mr. Grumpy, unproven theories and erroneous beliefs are what keeps our liberal arts colleges alive, in this country. I herewith offer a blanket apology for not stifling my inner imp of provocateur-ism. | ||
| Milt |
Theories can't be proven. There is always the possibility that a real theory is false or inadequate - otherwise, we're talking about beliefs. However, Mox, I agree PhDs produce a lot of BS! | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Moxnix, that's true everywhere, it keeps the literary industry going too. (thankfully or I'd get bored out of my tree) Milt, I beg to differ that theories can't be proven, Galileo got in serious trouble with the Catholic church for propounding his theory that the solar system is heliocentric not geocentric. We now know this is the case but then it was just theory based on observation. It took the catholic church many years to change it's mind, even after the theory had been demonstrably proven. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Mr. Grumpy's early on post....reflects my views entirely...I'm not much for organized religion. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Liberal arts colleges.... the last bastion of unsupported, undocumented hyperbole  Just waiting for the UofW to add 'Green' to its comparative religion curriculum | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Actually until an idea is proven it is only a hypothesis. In order to consider it a theory it must be "proven" by facts, laws, testing, ect. However, a theory can later be dis-proven if the methods; facts, laws, testing, are discovered to be inaccurate. So by definition all Theories must be proven, but not necessarily true. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Thanks for the semantics lesson Not P, I think I've got it but I'll have to go lie down now cos my brain hurts.  | ||
| Slaughter |
The reason that atheism exists is that it is the only belief system that has all the answers. | ||
| Slaughter |
... and just because she is black, doesn't mean that God can't have a sense of humor. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
You forgot handicapped & Jewish | ||
| Hootowl |
"Just waiting for the UofW to add 'Green' to its comparative religion curriculum" That'll never happen. They'll have to admit it is a religion first. |
