| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Like I mentioned before, the consumers. It would be built into the cost of normal battery exchange. Lets say it costs $10 to exchange a cell, $5 would be the cost to recharge, $3 to cover other running costs, and $2 to go to a new battery. Nice idea, but you ignore the desire to pass the buck. A sub par battery comes in. The shop owner finds it's out of spec but can charge it anyway and send some unsuspecting consumer off with a half dead battery. Luckily we all know there are no shysters in the auto industry.  You also ignore the person who has charged his battery at home for the life of the battery. He has never contributed to the cost of a new battery, but now that his battery fails to get him across town he comes in and exchanges for a new one (or hopefully better one) for the cost of a charge/exchange. There's just too many ways that this will not work. In my neck of the woods it is clean, safe, and reliable nuclear. No body is completely separated from the various sources of electricity. You do not get 100% from nuclear sources. Even if you could that still takes energy that must be made up for with other sources. This is the same tortured logic Al Gore uses to justify his huge energy use. "It's all green energy!" It will happen till the gas tax dries up, then they will implement an electric tax. The real question is how long will it take for it to get to that point, and how much would the new tax be. It will happen as soon as EV's get considered more than an oddity. Won't happen, even with no changes to the current grid. Electric vehicles are programmed to recharge during off peak hours when the rates are cheaper. It will happen for the reason Grancuda points out. The off peak hours thing isn't built into the vehicle. It's built into the house. It's expensive to install too. It will also be the key to taxing you road tax for that energy. BTW this will be the first power that gets the rolling blackouts. DAMHIK! You will be pissed off when your EV didn't charge overnight. This is what the Chevy Volt does, and it seems to be quite effective, and probably would be the best short term answer till better batteries and charging systems emerge. Another nice thing about the volt is the optional roof solar cells, which can help charge it a bit while you are out and about. The Volt has had many promises made. Have any been delivered yet? I honestly don't know if they've hit show rooms yet. I know they were supposed to be out by now. The details on the Volt are about as solid as BOcare. Plug in hybrid makes more sense than electric. I get the feeling the Volt fails to be in that category though. Can it actually produce enough electricity to continually go down the road on it's own power? That would make it a hybrid, but that isn't what it's billed as. Very confusing??? If it was so ineffective, why is the whole industry going that way? Where? Even in Europe where gas costs are more that double what we pay these things haven't taken off. | ||
| Sifo |
Froggy, How many of those EV's can be purchased today? | ||
| Sifo |
I'm guessing that if there's no price for the Volt yet it's not out. http://gm-volt.com/2009/12/22/will-gm-surprise-us- with-the-chevy-volt-price/
(Message edited by SIFO on December 22, 2009) | ||
| Hootowl |
The volt's gasoline engine will power the car, and keep about a 30% charge on the battery. Once you switch to gas, it will stay in gas mode until you plug it back in to the charger and put a full charge on it. The volt is a hybrid, just not a series hybrid like the other hybrid models on the market in that the gas engine doesn't directly drive the wheels. In theory, this makes it less expensive to produce because the drive train is much simpler than a series hybrid. Had they just done that (trains have been doing it for decades) there would be thousands of them on the roads already. They are using the volt to try out all sorts of new farkles though, and that is jacking up prices and sliding the timetable to the right. | ||
| Sifo |
The volt is a hybrid That kind of goes with my understanding of it. I don't know why they try to market it as an electric. They are playing all kinds of games on the release of this car. Claiming to get the equivalent of 280 MPG. BS! There is no way I would rush out and buy one of these with the dishonest marketing that GM has done. That was before the government got into the game. | ||
| Fast1075 |
At the turn of the century, the car builders were convinced that no one would ever build an internal combustion engine safe enough to actually power an occupied vehicle. Electric vehicles were very common back then. Today we have internal combustion engines because they are the basis for the most financially large segment of the world economy.....and as long as the IC engine rules the roost it will stay that way. The idea that electric or other alternative drive means cannot be developed is rediculous and short sighted...current development is in the early stages yet....it has taken over a hundred years to get IC engines to their current development levels and they are miserably poor efficiency wise... | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
The idea that electric or other alternative drive means cannot be developed is rediculous and short sighted I swear, some of you have no reading comprehension skills. I don't recall anyone implying it can't be done. These other technologies have shortcomings and until they are resolved electric cars, etc., will be novelties or niche players just like Harley powered Buells. | ||
| Sifo |
The idea that electric or other alternative drive means cannot be developed is rediculous and short sighted I know alternatives can be done. I had a '72 Mercury Comet that got a LPG conversion in '79. It was great not paying road tax! | ||
| Hootowl |
Electric cars didn't take off because of their miserable range, just like today. A gasoline powered car had better range, was easy to "recharge" and cheap to operate. Gas cars are used today because oil is plentiful and cheap (relatively) and until that is not the case (the pols are trying with the C&T BS) the IC engine will dominate the market. Electric cars will fail not because people don't want them, but because there just isn't enough lithium in the world to build enough batteries to power the cars we already have, not to mention the millions of cars that China and India will bring to the party once their middle class gets going. Yet the electric car folks continue to pursue lithium based battery technology. It just won't scale. --- "Today we have internal combustion engines because they are the basis for the most financially large segment of the world economy" You are confusing cause with effect. They are the basis for a large sector of the economy BECAUSE they are widely used, not the other way around. --- "The idea that electric or other alternative drive means cannot be developed is rediculous and short sighted..." Absolutely true. We're driving around in cars that are the product of 100 years of engineering, supported by 100 years of investment in oil based distribution infrastructure. The question is, is that investment worth nothing? Do we have 100 years of oil left? Depends on who you ask. I'm a proponent of alternative fuels not because I'm anti-oil, but because I'm pro energy independence. I believe that if we don't start getting other sources of energy online now, getting that infrastructure in place, when oil gets really scarce, we'll be screwed. We're already screwed from a national security perspective. All our enemies have to do is decide to stop selling oil to us, and we're forqued. I'm of the opinion that electric cars just don't make sense. You know, unless there is some radical breakthrough in storage that doesn't use rare and/or precious metals in the construction of the battery. I think we should be investing more in man made liquid fuels such as algae oil. We can use existing refining and distribution infrastructure, and perhaps even our existing cars. It'll even make the greenies happy because it recycles the carbon. Algal oil will scale, batteries will not...again, unless there is a miraculous breakthrough in storage. | ||
| Froggy |
Yep. Rather than come to me with problems, bring me solutions. These aren't even huge hurdles, but in the end fast charging batteries would make it obsolete anyway.
All energy has to come from somewhere. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another.
Yes it is, on the Volt at least. http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10210454-54.html
Even if I was camping for a month in the mountains, the Volt would still be fine and just use the gasoline generator.
No, its not out yet. The car is done and ready, and currently is in battery testing stage. I don't know why you thought they would be out by now, everything I have read over the last few years show a targeted 2010 release.
Yep. The gasoline motor will kick in at about 30% charge remaining, and will maintain that level, it does not recharge the battery much before turning back off.
It is billed as an extended range electric car. It is an 100% an electric car, and if the charge gets low, the generator kicks in and provides some recharging to the battery. There have been prototypes running around without the gasoline motor functional (software disabled) to show to the journalists how the car will work for 90% of its typical usage.
The ones I listed? The Mitsu is available in Japan, the rest will be in production within the next year. Here is a list of 10 electric cars you can go out and buy right now, but most of them are not large scale manufacturers http://ecomodder.com/blog/10-electric-cars-buy-tod ay/
That number comes from the EPA and their new test procedure for electric cars. Yes the system sucks, but so does the current gasoline vehicle test procedure too. I forget the details off the top of my head, but if you do the math, it does come out to 230mpg, and some other cars like the Nissan Leaf score even more than that (367mpg). Also, this was all announced in August, well after GM filed for bankruptcy protection and got involved with the government. One last note, I just wanted to say, this thread rocks, nice and civil discussion, and I am learning quite a bit too  | ||
| Sifo |
Rather than come to me with problems, bring me solutions. Gas stations work. Yes it is, on the Volt at least. http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10210454-54.html Interesting... They say "We don't have to put in smart meters to get those kinds of features and accommodations". Then they say "Another important step to making electric cars more palatable to consumers is having dedicated outlets that can charge at 240 volts, twice as fast as a normal outlet". Typical of the talk GM has given on the Volt. I don't know why you thought they would be out by now, everything I have read over the last few years show a targeted 2010 release. That came from GM. It was supposed to be released as a 2010 model in the fall of 2009. I see they are now calling it a 2011 model. The gasoline motor will kick in at about 30% charge remaining, and will maintain that level, it does not recharge the battery much before turning back off. Will it still drive with full performance (That answer isn't available yet)? A plug in hybrid just makes far more sense to me (Prius as available in Japan). That number comes from the EPA and their new test procedure for electric cars. I've read that the Volt hasn't been through EPA testing yet. If that's the kind of estimate the EPA is doing on EV's then shame on them. A gas equivalent wouldn't get that kind of mileage with a 100% efficient engine. One last note, I just wanted to say, this thread rocks, nice and civil discussion, and I am learning quite a bit too Agreed 100%! | ||
| Hootowl |
That 280 figure is based on cost. You can go 280 miles for the cost (in electricity) of one gallon of gasoline. I can't vouch for the veracity of that claim, but that's what the number represents. EPA is still deciding on formulas to rate these things. | ||
| Sifo |
Looks like the EPA has rated the Volt. It's 230. My bad on the 280 figure. Still it seems wildly optimistic. Sounds like the government playing games to promote alternative vehicles to me. Funny thing is this link shows the special charging station that you don't need!   http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/11/chevy-volt-gets-230- mpg-city-epa-rating/ EDIT:
 (Message edited by SIFO on December 22, 2009) | ||
| Fast1075 |
I would love to get my hands on one of those California Electric Ford Rangers that were built some time ago...would be the perfect go to work truck for me...of course I would still use my gas powered Ranger for those pesky long trips. And if I lived in a community where it would be feasible, I would use an urban electric vehicle for those short hops to the store, etc...most likely a blinged out Club Car....I have a Zippy (700 watt stand-up scooter) I use on large job sites...and it does pretty well with an 8-9 mile range....I recharge it from my 1500 watt power inverter in my truck so a spare battery is always ready to go. Drifting away from the electric thing...I hope that French company gets their compressed air powered vehicle in production...that is another great idea...unlimited storage time for the "power supply"....and can be recharged on the road from an on board compressor while you are having dinner or lunch...and the engine consumes energy only when it is moving the vehicle... | ||
| Boltrider |
MPG and range are such key issues in this debate, but I see no US-spec diesel hybrids out there. My question is why? Cost? Let me ask this - If folks were choosing between the $40K Chevy Volt and a diesel hybrid from brand "X", which would you buy? Surely brand X (be it VW or someone else) can do a diesel hybrid for the same money as Chevy does for the Volt? | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
It's already happening folks. Read this. http://www.greencar.com/articles/innovative-mass-m arketing-renault-electric-cars.php | ||
| Boltrider |
Ah yes, the golden variable!  | ||
| Froggy |
The Volt can charge on both types of outlets. I already have 240 outlets in my garage for laundry equipment. It wouldn't be hard to get another outlet installed should I desire it, or I could use a regular 120 volt if that was all I had around. Many of the other electric cars I have seen require special proprietary charging stations and connectors.
That remains to be seeing, but short of you doing something extreme like a track day, I don't see why the motor wouldn't be able to output enough current. Another cool trick with the programming, if the GPS sees you are near your home, it will not recharge the last few miles to save even more on gas. Doing some other reading trying to confirm some EPA testing for you and found this. The EPA (currently) classifies the Volt as a "Plug-in hybrid" http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/extremeMPG.jsp I can't find the actual math on their website anymore, they probably took it down after the the BS flags got waived, but basically the EPA test is about 50 miles, and using the Volt in all electric mode for the first 40 miles, then it only burns gas in the last 10 miles. They take the consumption in those last 10 miles and average it out over the entire 50 miles instead of the last 10, and it comes out to 230mpg. Yes, someone from our government thought it was a brilliant idea! Realistically, expect a figure of 50mpg once the gas motor kicked on. As for the release date, currently it is set for production to begin in November 2010. Some older websites were stating April 2010, but GM extended it to further battery testing. The car is done at this point, and the battery is the big unknown, so they are trying to cram 10 years worth of typical use into a short 2 year period and throughly test the batteries. | ||
| Froggy |
Yep. Diesels typically add about $5k to the cost of a car, and Hybrids another $5k. Now you got a $9 or 10k premium on top of the cost of a normal car. There have been a few concepts, but outside buses and garbage trucks, don't expect to see one for a while. | ||
| Boltrider |
But in light of the rumored cost for the Chevy Volt, I think a diesel hybrid is a more attractive option. | ||
| Sifo |
What the heck is in a diesel that adds $5K to the cost? I don't get that at all. I have to admit that the VW TDI seems very interesting to me right now. they are trying to cram 10 years worth of typical use into a short 2 year period and throughly test the batteries. And that would worry me! I've always wondered what the long term costs of the hybrids will turn out to be. Only time in the real world will tell that story. | ||
| Doerman |
We realistically have about 40-50 years with reliable natural gas and crude reserves before an alternative needs to be ready to power locomotion on the ground and equally important, in the air. There needs to be a serious effort to have shifted the transportation fuel by then. With that perspective, does electric motors and batteries fit the bill? Hmm, not really. At best a stopgap that prolongs the time frame when a new source of transportation fuel needs to be ready. As such, it may serve in some capacity. To say that electric vehicles are the panacea for all ills; such as pollution, foreign energy dependence, trade balance... the list goes on.. is taking the eye off the ball on the real issue. Which is moving forward to the next platform of reliable, plentiful and reliable energy source to cover industry, transportation and home use. Electricity, compressed air, heated mass, etc is just stored up energy ready to use. I like the idea of algae growth. I wonder how scalable that is. | ||
| Froggy |
The emissions crap makes up most of the diesel cost. Starting in 2007 all diesel vehicles need to run just as clean as gasoline vehicles. Needless to say, that is not easy. | ||
| Mndwgz |
Found a solution to the battery box in a few years, ORB, for Organic Radical Battery. Story: http://www.engadget.com/2005/12/08/necs-paper-thin -rapid-recharge-batteries-orb/ | ||
| Sifo |
We realistically have about 40-50 years with reliable natural gas and crude reserves before an alternative needs to be ready to power locomotion on the ground and equally important, in the air. Well... over 35 years ago we only had a 20 year supply. I guess things are getting better! An exec. at UOP (United Oil Products) has told me that the oil supply is in no danger of running out. I would guess that they may try to get a realistic idea of what the supply of oil might be. Earlier I linked an article saying the natural gas supply is good for at least 90 years. We also have a huge supply of coal that can produce electricity. The idea that we are running out of energy resources is getting a bit stale. | ||
| Mndwgz |
Algae fuel... right in my back yard. http://www.algenolbiofuels.com/ | ||
| Hex |
This discussion has gotten further than any other e-vehicle one yet on BadWeB. That Voltrn must have turned some heads... | ||
| Hootowl |
--- "What the heck is in a diesel that adds $5K to the cost? I don't get that at all." --- "I have to admit that the VW TDI seems very interesting to me right now. " The price premium is due to the high pressure fuel system. Think 30,000 PSI. The injectors are really expensive, especially on the older PD models. The 09's have a common rail system. They do multiple fuel events per combustion cycle. They hardly make any noise at all. Really cool stuff. I thought the VW TDI was interesting too...that's why I bought one in 06 I average 42 MPG. 07 did bring more stringent emission requirements, but the difference in cost between the 06 model (that they made for three years, since it was an 06 model, they didn't have to meet the new regs) and the 09 model is only about $1000. And the 09 makes about 30% more power too. | ||
| Sifo |
I thought the VW TDI was interesting too...that's why I bought one in 06 : ) I average 42 MPG. It's that kind of mileage along with good performance that has me leaning that way. Thanks for the input. I knew the fuel system worked at a much higher pressure than gas FI but didn't know it was that high. | ||
| Midknyte |
Want economical? Check this! http://www.motorcycledaily.com/22december09_honda_ twister.htm 164 MPG! It's small, but hey, 164 MPG! Cheap too.  |
