| Author | Message | ||
     Tramp |
Geez. You can absolutely count on some folks to argue with the person, and not with the point. You can turn a profit and still have horrendous debt. perhaps the failure of some to understand this concept is why we're in the present economic bind.  | ||
| Tramp |
"Court kept talking about the 200 year plan, I wonder where in the plan closing after 26 years was written. Maybe Court needs glasses..." Or maybe *you* need to realize that our current economic climate has killed long term plans for many companies and individuals. So many people I know had planned to keep their jobs, stay in their homes, send their kids to good schools, and now that's not happening. Do they need glasses too? How about all of the great small businesses, Mom and Pop shops, etc., that recently went under due to our present climate? Do they need glasses, too? If you want to bash on anyone's knowledge of the Buell MC co., try to keep Court Canfield at the end of your long list. He knows more about the subject than ANYONE else chiming in on this board. This is an accurate statement. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Tramp, I agree that the economic condition created most of the problem. I was simply trying to reconcile the disparity between the reports of a Buell in the black and a move to terminate the line. They seemed incongruous to me. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I don't believe it was hard to see this crash coming. I'm surprised we aren't in a depression. I guess the feds pumping trillions of dollars into the economy softened the blow, eh. Honestly, I'm not as concerned with what's going on presently. I'm way more concerned with things going forward. There are a plethora of serious issues I don't see even being remotely addressed, any one of, could result in catastrophe. I prefer the simpler days of the Cold War when all we had to worry about was an accidental launch of an ICBM. A recession is when your neighbor loses their job. A depression is when you lose yours | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Or maybe *you* need to realize that our current economic climate has killed long term plans for many companies and individuals. Is that what I need to realize? Man where would I be if you didn't point that out....wow. Awesome***yawn*** I wasn't bashing his knowledge, I was bashing the 200 year plan that didn't meet the board's approval apparently....either way doesn't matter now, if something new pops up for Buell I would be happy, but ultimately companies do what companies do....so move on I guess. | ||
| Slamber777 |
Quote: "My understanding is that over 80% of the existing dealers "voted" to not continue to carry the Buell brand, even after the national championship..." This was a quote from http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/406 2/504150.html lf this is even close to true, it would seem the HD dealers didn't want to deal with the Buell brand for some reason. This would surely doom any company who didn't have the support of it's dealer network. l too, wonder what was the real reason that would create such a defection? | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
l too, wonder what was the real reason that would create such a defection? Ah, lack of sales, perhaps. Floor space has value. Grocery stores routinely drop products that dont "carry their weight" in favor of items that do. I don't believe it's any grand conspiracy. Just simple economics. | ||
| Tramp |
+1 | ||
| Tramp |
There's no greater drain on a dealership than a major unit that gathers dust. The sales opportunity cost of this scenario becomes catastrophic over time. Ferris hit it on the head. | ||
| Slamber777 |
To tell you the truth l was hoping that was all it was. The crazy thing is now there are a whole lot of people finally dropping the dime to purchase a new Buell. Many of them riding the fence until now. l have a buddy who will be picking his first one up soon. Maybe there will a big out cry for Buell to continue. l know it would be a long shot. | ||
| Blake |
"Just simple economics." Not. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Buell bikes are unlike HDs in the fact that there is a requirement that they be sold. I can't remember who I was having a discussion with, but I remember the statement made that just by sticking a Harley Davidson sign in the front yard you were almost assured of 100 bike sales per year. Buells aren't like that at all. You must go to where the buyer is and sell the bike. Dealers, for the most part, didn't understand the buyer of Buell because it didn't match the buyer of HDs. Case in point. Appleton HD in Clarksville. There are 28,000 soldiers stationed at Ft. Campbell. They have their housing, food, and clothing paid for by uncle sam. Why the hell couldn't they sell Buells? Why were they not one of the leading Buell dealerships? They, like many dealerships, expected Buell buyers to be like HD buyers. Hang a sign out front and they will come. Buell had to make the first sales pitch to the dealers to buy the bikes for the sales floor. It was up to the dealers to make the next step. Many didn't or couldn't. Some of that is BMC's fault (2008 1125R fumbles). Much of it rests with the dealers. Appleton is still selling 2008s for $9995. | ||
| Jstfrfun |
If the greater percentage of dealerships don't give equitable commissions and don't provide proper training and parts supply then HD is sticking a fork in the product from the beginning. If you start out with an unwanted product shoved down the throats of a dealership who is dedicated to a different riding style, it will always be unwanted by sales parts and service staff. | ||
| Daveswan |
The easy thing is observing the obvious: they didn't sell. The next question is: why not? make a little list, and it's not just one thing but many things and even combinations. There are things that can contribute like the economy but some manufactures have gained share not posted an 84% loss. I'm surprised they haven't done focus groups, I've never seen any of that data. One of the nice things about not having facts is that corp. execs can blame something else and they don't look responsible. If there was a list giving different weighting like from 1-10, not relevant to very relevant, they could probably see a pattern. HD riders don't typically like sport bikes? 1-10 Sport bike riders don't like Harleys? To what degree does horsepower influence you? To what degree does Torque influence you? Relaxed ride position? Aggressive rider position? Would you go to a dedicated dealer? type of riding? age? reliability concerns? do you work on your own bike? Is this you first bike? What size CC's are you most interested in? Styling - rate, (provide some examples). some people really hate the look of the fuel-in-frame, saying it looks like a train wreck. Might be the best design for it's use but if it doesn't visually appeal it's just not going anywhere. I like the look myself, it's an acquired taste. Though they've made great products, there's misrepresentation, perception, lack of understanding with the parent company-HD, the dealers (and lack of) and the public, no marketing plan, no cohesion. I like having something no one else has anyways and this is pretty close! It will be interesting to see how the events unfold either way. | ||
| Tramp |
Um pssssst: Daveswan:.... they have this here "recession" thing a-goin-on.... Were it not for this recession, Buell would be thriving, and likely growing. (Message edited by tramp on October 22, 2009) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Hey Tramp, IIRC a couple of years ago you mentioned you were considering buying an 1125R. Now would be a great time...  | ||
| Fast1075 |
My slant is a bit left handed...so no one take offense...right now the remaining bikes are flying out of the stores...it is because they are selling for unbelievably low prices....when they were on the floor at list price...al lot fewer people were willing to spend the cash for them. I wanted an 1125, but one at list was more than my "fun budget" allows...I was ready to move up from the Blast to something a LOT better, and settled for a very nice used Lightning....if I could have bought a new 1125 for what they are selling for now...yah know I would have got one. The bottom line is that the bikes were on a lot of people's "wish list", but the people could not justify or risk the expense....until now....it's a deal on world class streetbikes that should not be passed up on. The internal problems at Hog no doubt are the root of the problem...the marketing for Buell SUCKED...the most successful products around are marketed and in many cases....the market was CREATED for the product...not the other way around. Buell is gone because of two things...lack of market and lack of marketing...the bikes are fantastic in every way that appeals to me at least... The Hog financial issues with bad loans is one issue that has come up...well...if you have a building full of things for sale and no one is coming in with wheelbarrows full of cash....do you sit and wait, or do you take a chance?....at some point you either take a chance or close the doors...it ain't easy either way....that is one problem with a business that sells ONLY EXPENSIVE items...once you reach saturation for your market....you either change the product or change the strategy. In any case...when crap starts sliding downhill...you either band together and share the last can of beans, or point fingers at each other and try to sneak the whole can for yourself... Buell is/was the finest bike that I have ever owned or ridden...on many levels...but like so many others in the past...it has gone on...hopefully one day Erik, or someone like him will build high quality performance machines that are affordable by the common blue collar rider like myself and others...until then...remember this... Two wheels....in the wind...Lets Dance!!! | ||
| Daveswan |
ummm Ducati grew 10% over what they were regardless of the recession this year... and other manufactures have a little better penetration and aren't suffering the same setback. The only people being effected by the recession aren't JUST people who would buy Buells. The economy is a contributing factor given the facts which aren't mutually exclusive to one manufacturer. Points to, as the writer astutely observes - "Lack of Market and lack of Marketing" How to address it rather than be victimized by it is something HD doesn't have the balls nor desire. (Message edited by daveswan on October 22, 2009) (Message edited by daveswan on October 22, 2009) | ||
| Clarkjw |
The ugliness of the 1125R and CR hurt sales potential. But EB is hard headed, even about things without function. If the 2009 had come out with the race fairing from AMA or Ilmbergers, there is a chance Buell would still be around. -2008 1125R owner | ||
| Macbuell |
Trying to sell Buells in Hardley dealerships killed Buell. There are a lot of details and a lot of reasons for that but this is the simple truth. Buell's appeal to a totally different demographic than Harleys, in most cases. And that Demographic doesn't tend to associate themselves with HD. When those from that demographic chose to enter a HD store, many were turned off by the lack of knowledge of the Buells or the lack of effort in trying to sell a Buell to them. I bet the number of sales lost due to the incompetence or lack of interest / training / desire of the HD sales force to sell Buells is in the thousands per year. We, die heard Buell enthusiasts, complained about HD dealers ALL THE TIME. Imagine if you were just some guy off the street interested in a Buell. How fast would you turn around and take your interest AND MONEY to Triumph, BMW or Ducati, where there are sales people that are passionate about the brand. I know we have some of those types of sales people for Buell here on this board but unfortunately they are few and far between. It's hard to sell something when you have dealers and sales people that have no interest in selling that product. Trying to sell Buells in HD dealerships was a bad business decision. I've said all along they should have been sold alongside Triumph's and Ducati's or even BMW's. You are not going to steer someone interested in a Buell to a HD or vice versa so the argument of using Buell's to capture younger riders and convert them to HD sales holds no water. Two totally different riders with totally different definitions of the riding experience. You could steer someone away from a Ducati or a Triumph though. | ||
| Macbuell |
Tramp, quit using the recession as an excuse. If your business model cannot survive a recession then you have a flawed business model. | ||
| Daveswan |
yep, It's like a clash of civilizations. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I'm not really buying the "ugly" thing myself..."unique" or "different"...yes...the "pods" could be more different....but no Buell is as FUGLY as the much touted Ducati Streetfighter...that thing looks like a drunk Borg hacked it together with all the square parts hanging off the frame.. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Funny, I never got any "ugly" comments AFTER people test rode one. Somehow "ugly" comments from CURRENT 1125 owners always strike me as funny. If the bike was so ugly, why did you buy one? | ||
| Rubberdown |
Personally, I wanted to see what all the hoop-la was about the Daytona Sport bike race bikes. So I bought one off the track, did a couple of track days, raced it, then sold it a week before the Buell closure announcement (fairly current owner). Just curious even though I didn't really like the looks and said so here. (Message edited by rubberdown on October 22, 2009) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Yeah, but most people don't have the wherewithal to change motorcycles like underwear out of curiosity. | ||
| Hughlysses |
 Rubberdown does go through some bikes! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
He'll make you a hell of a deal on an HP2. You'll need this:  | ||
| Clarkjw |
(Message edited by clarkjw on October 22, 2009) | ||
| Clarkjw |
Ilmberger and some silver spray paint helped make mine prettier  Ohio made it run properly. It was too bad Buell took 2 years to release a fairing kit and get the FI right. And the black/blue was for his vanity, not the customer. I expected to see bruise pattern on EB and staff, not my bike. They coulda done direct marketing with a demo truck full of Buells and regional delivery, he could still do this  } |
