| Author | Message | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
     Jeffnights |
Call me silly if you want. Everybody on here seems to have this opinion that the V-rod engine will not work in a sporting application. True. Then again, what about the original Vr-1000 engine? Yes, I know that it has no prayer of meeting emissions and what not. But thats in race trim. What if Buell has been working on making a street version? The Vr-1000 twin make 150Hp@10K rpm and 100Tq@8k, Certainly, with the technology avalible now, a detuned street version that EPA friendly could make 130-135Hp I believe, and its four valves would be a joy to ride. Call me silly, i dont want to get flamed, but i think the Vr-1000 engine is a much better option than the v-rod plant. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jscott |
What about the possibility of a modern square four? Or even a modern take on Harley's v4 Nova? Could be an exciting July! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Liquorwhere |
Just a guess here, but I would lay money on a 60 Degree Rotax engine. Similar to the Aprilia, if not exactly. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tx05xb12s |
With these performance #'s I'd be very interested in seeing something like this available. The XB12 is a blast and is pretty peppy, but it's nothing to write home to mom about. I've been saying for a while now that the perfect Buell in my version of right would have a high rev, big horsepower twin, a six speed tranny, and the ability to ride competitively with other liter class bikes. I get the rebel thing and the background and perspective of the evolution of the brand and all that, but I'd still like to see a paradigm shift to be competitive. I think a majority of Buell owners and enthusiasts are into power and performance. We didn't buy 600cc Honda Shadows. We bought the only American Made Sportbike currently being mass produced. There is no excuse for saying we can live with less power than comparably (and some cheaper) priced bikes and just give that tired old line, "own the curves". That's sidestepping the issue. The issue is we have a perfect platform for a real high performance sportbike engine. I feel like a hot new powerplant that would catapult a Buell model into direct competition with the popular 1000cc sportbike market and if it hung in with the top four these bikes would explode in popularity and appeal. I'm betting I'm not alone in saying I have spent quite a bit of money on "bolt on power" and it's still nowhere near as powerful as it should be in my opinion. This level of aftermarket performance parts activity within our own little sample of the population demonstrates at the very least that Buell as a brand should listen to the market. The market wants horsepower and performance. But hey marketing ideas are like a******s... I'd just like to see the company image include a little more competitive spirit within the market. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Liquorwhere |
TX--You are correct. My XB12R is fairly stock, when I say that I mean engine, I have a race kit and that is it, and a COMPLETELY stock GSXR600 can hand me my hat anytime it wants, my buddy has one and we have tried dead starts, 30mph roll on racing and many others, and sometimes I will have him for a split second and then the RPM's make the horsepower and see ya bye he is gone. He cannot corner with me, but he is close...real close on the little bike and his top end is way beyond what mine will do, and he has put nothing into his bike, not a pipe or anything. Comparable money as well on his end, under $10,000.00. I keep asking myself why do I want this bike again?? I love the sound I guess..... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Gentleman_jon |
I wouldn't be entirely surprised if you are on to something, Liquor:-) My reasoning: 1. Erik is known to admire the Rotax engine. 2. Aprilia is developing their own engine, a V-4 I believe, thus making the Rotax motor available 3. Harley has used Rotax engines before in their Military off road bike. 4. I predicted this move several years ago.  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Eboos |
July of 07 I will be buying something... hopefully it is a Buell. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Cochise |
I keep my guess on the XB12 Short Stroker XB12 S S | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Liquorwhere |
I see Jon...you predicted it...I am therefore just a vessel carrying news of your illustrious vision of the future...sweet. Can I be tax deferred too now?  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Crusty |
You know, the XBRR motor makes 150+ rear wheel horsepower, and will last a full season of racing without needing major maintenance. Wouldn't it make sense that a de-tuned version (say 120RWHP) would be reliable enough for a street bike? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Liquorwhere |
Crusty...it is still a pushrod engine..no matter how you slice it, or how much I love to ride my Buell's...it it 1920's technology at it's heart and soul, the fuel injection is good but not great and an average 600cc bike can tear our bikes up..so the XBRR would not do anything for us in my opinion. A Rotax engine is a proven, reliable, high horsepower engine that can make these bikes competitive. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Regkittrelle |
Not too many years ago "liquid" was supposed to take over the cooling chores on Buell motors by now. This, according to plans layed out several years ago. I think this sea change was predicated on sales reaching a certain level, which they have not done thus pushing the schedule out due to $$. While product plans change on a regular basis I still believe that the next-big-thing will be liquid-cooled.In fact, for Buell to retain any of the market, it MUST happen. I fully expect to see a radiatored Buell come this July. My big concern is that H-D will approach it too conservatively. I also think that the liquid line will complement, rather than replace, the air-cooled units. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Regkittrelle |
P.S. While the new motor might be a derivative of the VR motor there are several reasons why that derivation (if it is one) will be far afield from the VR-1000 race bike. Primary among these is that the VR casting would be totally inadequate for street use; no room for a street alternator, thin castings, very short duty cycle etc. Every time someone mentions putting a race motor in a street vehicle I'm reminded of that old saw about how if a race motor lasts ten feet past the finish line, it's overengineered. (That's a paraphrase, folks... can't remember the exact one... might have been Colin Chapman who said) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jaimec |
Tom Cutter (Rubber Chicken Racing Garage) said it best: "Whenever you see the word 'racing' substitute 'disposable' and you'll have it right." | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jlnance |
Does it matter what technology it uses if it gets the job done? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Regkittrelle |
Unfortunately, JInance, it does. Marketing rules the performance roost, and marketing has convinced a great part of the gearhead world that pushrods are passe. Reality is on another plane. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Diablobrian |
Reg is on the money with this one. We've been conditioned all our lives to believe that that newer is always better. Even if the facts say otherwise. Isn't it odd that these old obsolete air-cooled push rod motors meet EPA standards despite the lack of catalytic converter or other trickery? Shouldn't they need more crutches to meet modern standards, not fewer? At least that is what the hype would have you believe. Believe it or not the motor characteristics can dictate the configuration used. For a street motor a 2 valve v-twin has some very desirable characteristics, like a broad torque spread that starts at lower revs and is more user friendly than most other configurations. I know that this will get me painted with a broad brush as a pom-pom waver, but it's true. I've owned several configurations of motors including air cooled, air-oil cooled, and water cooled IL4s, plus water and air cooled twins, and water and air cooled singles, even an air cooled 2 stroke triple. My Buell has a lot of grunt on corner exits and doesn't require revving it to the moon to get into the meat of it's power. These are good things in a street motor. The relative simplicity of the motor and low maintenance requirements are additional benefits of the design, unlike 16 valves with shim under buckets or even 8 desmo valves. Of course I'd like to see more HP stock and the return of the trapdoor on the transmission and an overdrive 6th gear, but when you look at the performance Buell has gotten out of the base sportster motor (which is a dismal performer stock) is pretty impressive. I think if Buell does go with a water cooled motor it will be sold alongside the current XB line, at least for a while. I wonder how long until we see some RR sourced modifications to the XB line. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Liquorwhere |
Ok, a pushrod motor can only spin so fast, the piston can only move so fast, the valves can only open and close so fast before they start to float, when you go to an overhead cam, and multiple pistons...meaning more than two...although I will not ride an inline four because of my own preferences...you get more RPM and more horsepower. Is that horsepower always where you want it??? Maybe not, in a straight line will it out run most pushrod engines?? i.e. the buell....YES. It is quite amazing how much HP those little machines can actually make...now I like the twin, and I love my Buell's and my Harley's no matter how much I hate the company that makes them..I love the bikes and if they want to compete on the track...which I don't believe they do..and sell to a more broad audience of riders...which I believe they might..but I am not sure they truly do... then the Buell powerplant will have to be upgraded to a higher output system. It is that simple. So you can quote me all you want and it does get certain jobs done, and for my own bike I would like some more top end and a sixth gear, but it will not win races with the big boys until that powerplant gets them on an even footing where the riders make the difference. It does not have to be completely overpowering, but it has to be close enough. Don't forget to cut and paste some quotes out of here. Happy New Year. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Dale, Pushrods may be 1920's tech, but so are overhead cams, pistons, and four valves per cylinder. Pretty sure liquid cooling dates back to the early 20th centrury too. Did you know that H-D was racing a four valved OHC engine back in the 1920's? Not sure what is needed to qualify as "great" fuel injection. As Brian points out the Buell DDFI works without requiring the bandaid of catalytic converteres or air injection. I guess a 2nd O2 sensor, one on the other header pipe might be an advantage; provide a separate AFV for each cylinder. I don't know any "average 600cc bike" that "can tear our bikes up". Only the race replicas fit that category. And XBRR type street bike, one with 120RWHP would certainly do a lot for the Buell's performance. Not sure how you imagine it would not. Have you ever ridden an honest to goodness 120+ RWHP Buell motorcycle? It is an unforgiving beast. Nothing like a 120RWHP 600cc IL4 that must be wring out to 13K RPM or more to reach that level of performance. I can currently go out and purchase a very nice Rotax V-Twin powered sport bike. Why do we need another one? Does anyone imagine that the likes of Buell are going to start copying the competition? Different in I don't think so. But I'm just guessing. Frankly I'd like to see a higher power Buell motorcycle too, but I don't really care how that power is achieved, whether via air-cooled two-valve/cel pushrod engine, or a square four liquid cooled OHC 4-valve/cyl engine. I do know that I am not interested in any motorcycle for street duty that must be revved to stratospheric speeds to make power. That is just plain silly to me.
Just a Sampling to Illustrate the Point  I'll never forget my first ride on a Buell. It was a 1996 S1. The immediate power off idle was amazing, just twist the throttle and hold on bay-bee! That is so much, near infinitely satisfying to me than a 600cc repli-racer where if you whack the throttle wide open at 2500 rpm, the bike reacts with a pathetically anemic moan that, if you are patient enough, slowly, very slowly builds until finally reaching the power-band somewhere upwards of 8,000 rpm where it starts to take off. Race tuned engines make sense on the track. For me, they are silly on the street, and I for one would feel foolish riding my bike around always at 8000 rpm or more to be sure I had good power on tap should I wish to exploit it. What will you do when Buell does give you a 120 RWHP model and your riding buddies show up on the latest literbike repli-racer IL4 with 150 RWHP? It's a silly game they play. No? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Liquorwhere |
Blake, You make so many good points I am at a loss to write anything other than that...and this..I think that a Rotax engine for at least a year or two would boost consumer confidence. Most people don't want the first year of a bike with unproven technology, Rotax is very proven and the handling of the bike is proven so it would make a nice match. I would be hard pressed not to go to the Evil Empire and buy one. I could care less if it is different is a few senses or not, give me the bike I have in every sense except the powerplant. I love the torque, but I want more HP and speed. I have ridden some monster machines, I owned a 1999 Yellow Ducati 748R...beautiful bike..that was always broken, but when it ran right..man...what a rush that was, but sadly it was killing me for maintenance and I was in college so I sold it. Still I would buy a bike like that again, and I still might. Anyway, good points Blake, very good points, I just don't agree with them all. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Teddagreek |
More Top Gear Roll Ons 3.85 Buell XB12s  600 class bikes here 3.34 Triumph Daytona 675 3.80 Honda CBR600RR 3.89 ZX-6 3.37 GSZ 750 4.01 GSX 600 4.01 R6 Some of the rest 3.71 KTM 750 4.05 Vrod 3.42 Triumph Speed Triple 3.07 BMW 1200r 4.02 Bandit 1200s 3.32 Ducati SR4 2.71 R1 2.46 GSX-R1000 2.76 Honda CBR1000RR Most of these are not 07 bikes either... XBRR Race Ready 150 hp @ 8000 rpm 100 ft. lbs@ 6400 $30,995 Ducati 1098 STOCK 160 hp @ 9750rpm 90.4 lb-ft@ 8000rpm $14,995.00 XB12R STOCK 103 HP @ 6800 RPM 84 ft. lbs. @ 6000 RPM XB9SX STOCK 92 HP @ 7500 RPM 70 ft. lbs. @ 5500 RPM Monster SR4 STOCK 130 hp @ 9500RPM 76.67@ 7500RPM (Message edited by teddagreek on January 01, 2007) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Liquorwhere |
Ted, Looking at that chart reminds me of this weekend on the Howard Frankland going from St Pete to Tampa, three beeps on the horn of my XB second gear 40mph and watching my buddy on his R1 pull away so fast it was ridiculous, a 2001 R1 with carbs mind you. Anyway, it was quick. I rode the Duc SR2 and SR4 X-mas weekend...monster's for certain and fun to ride. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Eboos |
CCS classes that the Ducati 1098 can compete in: Unlimited Superstock Heavyweight Superbike Unlimited Superbike Unlimited GP Supertwins CCS classes that the XB12R can compete in: Just about all of them except Ultra Lightweight Superbike and 125GP. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Teddagreek |
Some of these big liter bikes are just sick... I ride with a guy on occasion with a Gixxer that thing is crazy fast.. I know guys who are into the whole top end thing and they are Nuts.. I'm still recovering from my wreck In november, I can't imagine wrecking at 150mph+ I would be content with SR4 power in my buell.. The Rotax would be nice I wonder if it could fit some how? Engine Type V990 * 4-stroke * 2-cylinder * 60° V-Engine * 4-valve / cylinder * 102 kW/139 HP * 997.6 ccm * 6-speed gearbox * 2 balance shafts * EFI (Message edited by teddagreek on January 01, 2007) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Teddagreek |
 What Aprilia models use rotax? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Eboos |
Didn't the RSV1000 up until 2005 use a Rotax? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Liquorwhere |
It could be engineered to fit if the engineer wants it to fit I would suppose. It is a beautiful engine, stunning really. I believe it was the engine of choice for Aprilia, many companies use their engines. I could get used to looking at a Buell with that powerplant in it...sexy for sure. 139 HP.. and a six speed????that's just pillow talk...mmmm good. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Oldog |
output is on the wrong side for a buell chassis.. SUPER DUKE   It's orange Its fast It'll hand the nips their A$$ I watched " a nights tail over the holiday "  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Pwnzor |
My 2003 Ducati 749S was a much faster, more powerful bike pretty much all the way around. I rode it a lot for the first three weeks I owned it. Then I bought the 2004 XB12R. The Ducati gathered dust. As I approached the 20,000 mile marker on the Buell, I sold the Ducati with 3,000 miles on it. Those 3000 miles saw FIVE trips to the mechanic where they kept the bike for over a week, and subsequently found a way to make sure the repairs were not covered by the warranty. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Natexlh1000 |
oof! What fell off of the duke? My uncle wants to buy one of those there things. |
